Night Moves - Should the NHL Relocate Teams?

I think it’s obvious that an original 6 team will never be moved…that’s why you don’t see Chicago being mentioned.

The Islanders won’t be moved bc their owner has more money than God and doesn’t care how much he loses.

I would disagree with your statement that NHL franchise owners are in business to make money. On the face of things, yes, no one wants to take a huge loss – but people don’t buy into a sport that doesn’t have a huge fan base because they want to make $$, it’s because they want to own an NHL team. I doubt Karmanos regards the Canes as an investment, for example.

Your last line says it all. It is a lot more complicated than looking at average revenue or attendance, which is why your examples of Chicago, St. Louis and the Isles don’t help your point.

It is hard to argue that a hockey team in Phoenix is a good idea. It is hard to argue that 2 teams in Florida is a good idea. It is hard to argue with the thought of moving Atlanta, even though I like the team, because their ownership situation is bad news, and because this is the SECOND time they have had an NHL franchise and it hasn’t really worked out. It is also hard to argue that putting a team back in Quebec City is a good idea, as it is very small town and it needs a completely new arena.

How much of a spike has the Anaheim cup win given the team? The same with the Canes. These are all really important factors in establishing a franchise in their region, and nationally as well.

Ben-

As always, thanks for your comments. Your perspective is much different from mine on this particular topic, and while I can understand some of your points, I disagree with some as well.

I’m not so sure that I agree with the idea that they will never move an original 6 team. While it would be a sad day for many traditionalists, if a new owner, (or son of an owner) was continually losing money hand over fist and wanted to move one of those franchises, I don’t think the league would stand in their way if they had a feasible plan. Hopefully it never comes to that.

I don’t understand why the Islanders get a free pass because “their owner has more money than God”. What does that have to do with low attendance and sagging revenues?

If the criteria for moving teams is the perception that hockey won’t sell down south because of low attendance and revenue, then look at all the raw numbers and move all the lowest performing teams, regardless of their location. The Islanders would have to be in the equation then, regardless of how much money the owner has. If they can’t sell tickets, they aren’t doing any better than Southern teams.

If the criteria in deciding whether or not to move teams is based upon how much money an owner has, then perhaps we should look at Ottawa’s troubles in the past and move them.

Besides, how do you know how much money the Florida ownership group has? As I stated in my article, none of the Southern teams ownership groups have had serious money problems.

Are they losing money? Yes, but are the owners going broke? Of course not. Again, if that was the criteria, then it’s time to move Buffalo. They are maxing out their attendance. If they can’t make money now, they never will be able to.

I still believe that owners are owners because they eventually want to make money. If not, then why charge people to watch hockey? Why raise ticket prices? Why negotiate with the players? Everything they do is about making money in that league.

While Karmanos has supposedly lost money 9 out of 10 years in Carolina, his franchise has gained value over the years. He purchased the Whalers for a reported 47.5 million and now according to Forbes the franchise is worth over 200 million. That sounds like a good investment to me.

In my opinion, they are all in the business to eventually make money. The fact that they love hockey is gravy.

Look at Leopold. He sold Nashville and bought Minnesota. What’s the difference between them besides one makes more money than the other?

I’m not going to argue about whether or not hockey belongs in Phoenix or southern Florida. All I can say that if Tampa Bay can sell out every game, why can’t Florida? If Dallas can be a viable, successful franchise, why can’t Phoenix?

My main point is that people shouldn’t just characterize an entire region and say “hockey will never work there”, because that’s an incorrect assumption.

I also think that it’s only fair that if people continually bash some Southern teams because of revenue and attendance issues, than they should bash the Northern teams with similar problems.

If Florida or Phoenix ownership wanted to move, I could certainly understand. But if ownership wants to stay there and continue to give it a go, then that is their decision and I think Canadians should respect what those owners want to do and accept it.

Questions like “If tampa can sell out every game, why can’t Florida” demonstrate the problem very well. 2 franchises in one hockey market, one does well at the expense of the other. Why? Maybe it’s because one has won a cup, and the other hasn’t. Maybe it’s because they chose a poor location for the Florida Panthers to be based in. But you can’t say because hockey works in one place in florida, it will work in 2 places in florida. There’s no logic there.

Regarding the isles – i don’t know how familiar you are with Charles Wang. He is not a normal business man. As long as he is in control of the Isles, it’s not going to matter how well they do financially. He has a very interesting past, I recommend checking it out.

I agree with you that Karmanos has reaped well in terms of the value of the franchise going up. However, we would need to see how much money he has lost exactly over the same period of the team’s appreciation in order to make a call over how good an investment it was. Investing close to 50 million dollars over a 10 year period should get you a very good return in many areas. Is hockey they best way to do it? doubtful.

I have no argument with moving Buffalo. However, i think we have a fundamental disconnect about the original 6 teams. it’s not a question of traditionalists being upset, these are the pillars of the league in terms of league history. If someone bought the red sox in the 80’s, say warren buffet, and wanted to move them, do you think MLB would have allowed that? no.

Another point I want to make: 2 of the last 3 franchises that were moved were Canadian – not American. So a newspaper writes a story about the southern teams…it’s still nowhere near as sad as the day that winnipeg and quebec city lost their teams. Or the day I lost my Whalers. There hasn’t been a single southern team that has lost their francise in the last 20 years. I pray you never have to go through that…and this is going to sound mean, but you don’t know what it’s like…I understand that these articles have you upset, but it’s just a paper tiger. don’t think that somehow Canadians hate southern hockey teams because of what you read in the media.

that being said, your site is great, and i love reading your posts.

While you say that having two teams in Florida hurt each other, I could say that putting a team in Hamilton might adversely affect Toronto and/or Buffalo. Perhaps Toronto ownership is the main reason that Balsillie is meeting so much resistance from the NHL home office?

I agree that it is sad when any team has to move. The two fans that I chatted with from Winnipeg were quite bitter about teams being located in Florida and Phoenix, and I couldn’t fault them. But they seemed surprised and impressed that a fan from Carolina would travel just as far as they did to watch the World Cup of Hockey.

You make some legitimate points Ben and it’s always a pleasure to discuss with you. Cheers!

I wouldn’t want to see a team in Hamilton either – I don’t agree with the rosy forecasts of the team being able to draw attendance from surrounding towns – I think it’s a lot of wish fulfillment there.

Toronto ownership is definitely a primary source of resistance. The Leafs havea license to print money, and they will protect that monopoly to the grave. Apparently, they even made a huge stink about the Sens getting their franchise – and the city is 4 hours away!

Hold up – did the article really say it would be a CUP FINAL between Columbus and Phoenix? Now, school might be out for the summer, but aren’t those two teams in the West? Now I might have missed something, but isn’t the Stanley Cup final supposed to be East v. West?

no, they changed it, now it’s between the teams with the lowest overall attendance.