Laviolette Gives Carolina an Edge
by Bob Wage on Aug 5, 2008 2:41 AM EDT
25 comments
In a Southeast Division race that is sure to be tight again this coming season, teams will be looking for any advantage possible to help move them to the top. One big advantage that the Carolina Hurricanes possess is having an experienced NHL coach behind the bench. The other teams in the division certainly can not claim that benefit.
Atlanta's coach, John Anderson and Florida's Peter DeBoer have yet to coach a single NHL game. While Washington's Bruce Boudreau had a great record last year, he has yet to coach an entire NHL season. Barry Melrose in Tampa Bay has not coached in over 10 years and has a lifetime winning percentage of only .447.
But not only is Peter Laviolette the most experienced coach in the division, he's one of the top performing coaches in the entire NHL.
In this recent article on ESPN.com, Terry Frei ranks NHL coaches as "The Elite", "The Proven", "The Jury is Still Out", "The Suspect", and "Who The Heck Knows?". Laviolette is ranked as "Proven", behind Mike Babcock, Lindy Ruff, Barry Trotz, and Jacques Lemaire, who are each ranked as "Elite".
I can see giving Mike Babcock his due, but what puts the other coaches ahead of Lavi? Ruff has the longest tenure in the league, but has he ever won the Stanley Cup? Barry Trotz has done a pretty good job in Nashville, but call me if he ever wins a playoff series and advances to the 2nd round. Lemaire has been heavily criticized for having a boring system in Minnesota which some players hate.
Let's take a look at winning percentages.
- Laviolette 232 - 173 - 25 .564
- Lemaire 500 - 381 - 124 .557
- Ruff 820 - 397 - 302 .558
- Trotz 324 - 308 - 60 .511
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but it looks like Laviolette has the best winning percentage of any of them.
Even though last year was a major disappointment because Carolina failed to make the playoffs, the team's 43 wins were the second highest since the franchise moved to Carolina. The only year better was the record breaking 52 wins under Laviolette in 2005-06. Like him or hate him, Peter Laviolette wins hockey games.
Barring some kind of catastrophe this coming season, the coach will soon have the distinction of becoming the winningest American born coach in NHL history. John Tortorella, (239-225-37), currently holds the lead, but seeing that he is unemployed at the present time, Laviolette should easily surpass him early this year. (By the way, Lavi's winning percentage compared to Tort's is .564 to .513).
Even the legendary Herb Brooks takes a back seat as far as NHL success goes. Brooks had a lifetime NHL record of 219-219-66 for a .500 winning percentage.
________
Things have been busy for me the past couple of days, but regarding Hurricanes news there really isn't much going on right now. I subscribe to several online news services which alert me when anything Hurricanes related is reported, and all there has been lately is old stuff.
I recently updated The Hockey News blog with information about the current status of Carolina's blueline and plan to do the same regarding the goalies and the forwards a bit later this week, so that THN readers will be up to date concerning the current status of the team. Most of this we have already discussed here though.
I'm also working on a new article for Canes Country which needs a bit more research before it's completed. That should be up in a day or two. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for more tidbits of news to over-analyze.
Ciao!
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Caveat** Not a Lavi fan.
Flawed stats. With the shootout system you get a slighty bad comparison and a far greater percentage of Lavi’s games are in the new. Lindi’s ties would probably push him above. You are also cherry picking info. “division”? The SE is the worst, most losing one that just went through huge changes again not fair.
Why don’t you dig up the stats on the coaches for all thier first 500 games.
I also thought Lavi was Canadian? I dislike the “American” born stat. What’s next, the Michigan born stat? It’s the NHL so compare to all players and coaches.
Hard to talk about great coaching and not include the likes of Bowman and Blake et al.
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by Paladin6 on Aug 5, 2008 5:53 AM EDT reply actions
I’ll preface the rest of this statement by saying that I am a Sabres fan (o.k. go ahead and attack me now). I don’t think Lavi is anywhere near the coach that Lindy Ruff is. He is not only the longest tenured coach but he coached through some miserable years when the team went through bankruptcy (see John Rigas/ Adelphia scandal)and the NHL gave orders to cut salary. In his 10 years of coaching the Sabres it has never been mentioned that he should be replaced, in fact it has been the exact opposite…the fans want to be assured that he is re-signed.
I know this will be attacked as sour-grapes from a Sabres fan but the Sabres had a 2-1 lead in game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals playing with a defense that consisted of Jeff Jillson, Nathan Paetsch (as a rookie), Rory Fitzpatrick and Doug Janik. Please don’t tell me about how management screwed the pooch by not getting one either because who could predict that they would lose all those defensemen in the playoffs. The Sabres were the better team that year but suffered some unfortunate injuries, the Canes took advantage of that situation and won a Stanley Cup…does that make Lavi better than Ruff?
by D.O. on Aug 5, 2008 7:42 AM EDT reply actions
BTW, Lavi is probably the coach most likely to get canned at this point. Everyone else cleared thier slates. Lavi’s distinction as the only coach ever to not even make the PO’s 2yrs in row after a cup win will stay with him as his defining stat. He’d need about 8 more cup wins to wash that bitter taste away.
Sorry, I just don’t him, I’d of fired him 1/2 way through 2 yrs ago.
They canned Maurice for better performance.
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by Paladin6 on Aug 5, 2008 8:16 AM EDT reply actions
I can’t seem to figure out where all this animosity towards Coach Lavs comes from….He is an American born coach btw.
Remember, this system of hockey that we love so much was brought in by Lavs. I do hear that he can be abrasive, but never heard anything about a player wanting to drop the gloves with him during practice. (Mo vs O). I was as frustrated as anyone that we missed the playoffs last year, had Lavs lost the ear of his players? Maybe he did bring a few guys back into the lineup too soon, but as a Coach you try to put the best players on the ice. During the 05-06 season and playoffs it seemed as if every thing that Lavs tried turned out to be a success, and the majority of the time the moves he makes work out for the best.
THE SABRES AND LINDA RUFF WERE NOT THE BETTER TEAM IN ‘06, HENCE LOSING GAME 7. THE CANES HAD INJURIES AS WELL, COLE BROKE HIS NECK. AARON WARD SHOULDN’T HAVE EVEN BEEN PLAYING AT THAT POINT IN THE SERIES. I ADMIRE THE TURBULENCE THAT RUFF HAS ENDURED OVER HIS TENURE, AND MANAGEMENT/OWNERSHIP HAS NOT DONE HIM ALOT OF FAVORS. BUT REALLY MUST HE WHINE AND CRY ALL THE TIME?
by Swenk on Aug 5, 2008 8:55 AM EDT reply actions
Good points, Bubba. I think the one thing I would add is Laviolette tends to be a little feast or famine. Either the team is playing extremely well or seems caught in a daze. Does that mean the other three coaches you mentioned are better? No, not necessarily. But there is something to be said for coaches who last somewhere a long time and don’t become stale.
Also, for my money, Lemaire’s a brilliant coach. Boring, but brilliant.
by Cory on Aug 5, 2008 9:03 AM EDT reply actions
Coaching is a what have you done for me lately profession and in that regard, Laviolette doesn’t look quite as good as the way you picture him. Since you’re so into numbers, how about these stats. Since he won the Cup in ‘06, the Canes haven’t made the playoffs. Name me another Cup winner that’s “accomplished” that feat. Or how about this number: after going 10-3-2 to start last season, Laviolette masterfully coached the team to a 33-30-4 record or just slightly above mediocre. And since you mentioned Boudreau, he inherited a team that had gone 6-14-1 and led them to a 37-17-7 record for the rest of the season. So really, do you still think he’s the best coach in the division? Sorry, but your “numbers” just don’t add up.
by rincrat on Aug 5, 2008 9:31 AM EDT reply actions
Don’t Canadians give themselves away when they say things like they “don’t like the American born stats….” After all.. it isn’t good hockey unless it comes out of Canada… right?
WRONG!
I would keep Lavi’s status as “proven” because (in my opinion) Elite status should be held only for coaches who have more than… say… 10 seasons under their belt as a coach. You can’t get solid stats over 5 or even 6 seasons.
With that being said. Lavi is a great coach. He is up front w/ the team, the fans, and the media and I’d rather have him than any of the others mentioned. He may be in hot water if the team doesn’t play well this season… but if the guys are healthy then I don’t see it being a problem.
by Mateo on Aug 5, 2008 9:58 AM EDT reply actions
I feel bot Ruff and Lavi are good coaches, both doing what they can with the limitations that their respective GMs have forced them to play with. They all have their flaws – the 2 coaches and their GM’s. The ’Canes won the cup due to great moves by the GM to shore up the team before the playoffs and Lavi did a great job with what he was given. As far as the Buffalo loss in the playoffs, INJURIES ARE NEVER AN EXCUSE in the NHL, ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. It was bandied about as an excuse for the ’Canes not reaching the playoffs after the cup win, but in professional sports, it is no excuse. Players and coaches HAVE to step up. They are pros. Play the hand you were dealt, and that is what BOTH of these coaches do well.
by marc on Aug 5, 2008 11:26 AM EDT reply actions
Nice to have some hockey discussion in the dog days of summer!
Paladin- I think if you look at shootouts, the Canes probably lost more of those than won. (I haven’t looked it up) Lavi also coached the Islanders to successful campaigns. Does that help make up for the weak Southeast?
I didn’t bring up a history of coaches (Bowman etc) because my only intent was to compare Lavi with the guys ranked above him in that specific article. I never indicated that he should be compared with the best coaches in NHL history. Obviously, he doesn’t belong there.
DO-
You Sabres fans never let up..L Just a couple of quick questions. Who had home ice advantage for the series, the Canes or the Sabres? Do you know how team’s earn home ice advantage? So how do you figure the Sabres had the better team?
Laviolette coached a team which was picked by most to finish 14-15th in the Conference, to a Stanley Cup. That counts for nothing? According to you, Ruff had the better team. How does that make him a better coach than Lavi, for finishing behind him in the regular season, as well as the playoffs?
Paladin-
You are right, he might get canned. But Maurice got canned for a better performance? Not so. Check the won loss ratios again. Like I said in the article, the 43 wins last year were more than Maurice ever got in a regular season.
Swenk- We’re on the same page.
Cory- Lemaire does have an outstanding record long term and probably deserves “Elite” status, although I think that his recent success is questionable.
rincrat- I admit that we can use different numbers to make our cases. No doubt that Boudreau had a great year last year. My only point is that he doesn’t have a full year of experince yet. We will see how he does this year. I doubt that the Caps will sneak up on anyone this time around.
Mateo-
I really can’t disagree. Lavioltte technically is not an elite coach at this point in his career. I was just pointing out certain things that he did better than some of the elite rated coaches. (like winning percentage and winning a Stanley Cup)
to all-
I really can’t argue against any of the named “elite” coaches, besides Trotz, who really hasn’t accomplished much in his career. I was primarily throwing out reasons why Laviolette could be considered with them. Like it or not, he does have one of the highest winning percentages of active coaches right now and doesn’t winning the Cup count for something?
peace!
by Bubba on Aug 5, 2008 12:04 PM EDT reply actions
Bubba,
My point on the shootouts was the number of ties the other coaches and Ruff in particular had. Lavi has a few dozen, Ruff a few hundred. If they all went to a shootout say (ie an even read of stats), I would expect Lindy to come out a tad better in the stats.
BTW I don’t like Ruff any better than Lavi, so kinda mute on me. I would also venture the opinion that while you may want to play your best players, that is if and only if they ARE the best at that time. One was seeing double (maybe triple), another had a broken leg he was coming back from (and did great, BTW) and Williams was not on his A game. The team without them however was winning games, which appears to be your only/main quantifier, I think Maurice was far more consistant with a less talented/exper. group, I like consistancy. Anyway, I think last years not making the playoffs was soley Lavi’s poor choice in taking a winning combo and trying to make something else happen. He did, we went from being in the PO and the division leader to out of the picture.
RE: My American stats comment does not come from a Canadian, born and raised in Detroit (that’s Hockey Town, home of the champions, for those that are unaware…) and I find it sad that we Americans have to quntify feats by saying “American born”. I think it demeans the player involved, the “other born” players and the NHL in general. Every hockey player I have met has only one standard, “how many times is my name on the cup?” I mean jeeezuz, some of these can’t speak the same language verbaly, but every one of them can say Stanely Cup and they know thier job is to get there.
My .02. I’m sorry if I pissed in someones wheaties, I just got a thing for Lavi.
I will say that my comment about his butt being in the hotseat is the gospel. I actually feel sorry for the guy and the stress he is under. If he get’s into the PO’s this year, I’ll lay off, I just think the decks stacked against him. He almost has to have the Presidents Trophy in the bag by like October or he’s always gonna be under the gun and second guessing and maybe even interferred with by JR or Big K.
Hey, theres one for the nicknames!! Big K
I crack myself up…
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by Paladin6 on Aug 5, 2008 12:41 PM EDT reply actions
And for the “So who do you like?” crowd. Babcock of course.
Mctavish is one of the few who actually does better in the PO’s. I think he’s one of the better coach’s and seems to be a pretty nice guy.
I’d also hire Hitchcock in a heart beat.
’em be my top three.
May not be the best at anything, but, instead of just whining about who I dislike, figured I’d name those I do like, too.
BTW, did you folks look at that chart of the coaches? Scotty Bowman is why I think some Americans use that quantifier, his records won’t be touched, probably ever.
Great info and article and thread, BTW.
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by Paladin6 on Aug 5, 2008 12:58 PM EDT reply actions
I like Laviolette as a coach, but that winning percentage isn’t really a great indication of his talent given the fact that he has coached FAR FEWER games than someone like Ruff or Lemaire. ESPECIALLY given the fact that the difference in percentages is quite small. It’s not a large enough sample.
That being said, I like him as a coach, and I like his coaching style, and I am proud that he is the Hurricanes coach.
by repenttokyo on Aug 5, 2008 3:36 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah… Lavi’s butt is def. in the hot seat if the team takes another big one on the ice thie season… And I can sort of see your point about the “american born” stats now that you explained yourself…. but you did sound like an angry Canadian in your delivery (nobody’s perfect). So what exactly is your Beef w/ Lavi?
I was having a discussion last night about how Wayne Gretzky hasn’t really been the awesome coach everyone thought he would be in Phoenix… although I do think he has helped his team improve… Does anyone think that this could be on part of young “star struck” players? I think they will continue to get better…
by Mateo on Aug 5, 2008 3:37 PM EDT reply actions
Good points paladin, I see where you are coming from now. I bring up the wins for an American coach because I think that it is a unique milestone. Maybe it’s pretty meaningless, unless Team USA is looking for a coach for the Olympics in a couple of years.
I also agree that he is on the hot-seat, but I hope that he is given a little bit of a loose leash. The team has a brutal road schedule in October, it will be tough to get off to a fast start.
I also agree about the number of games coached comment. Similar to what I said about Boudreau, (although on a different scale), Lavi still has to prove himself over the long haul. Ruff’s 800 wins say a lot.
I also like Carlyle and Hitchcock.
by Bubba on Aug 5, 2008 3:50 PM EDT reply actions
Call me crazy, but I actually like Ted Nolan as a coach. He always seems to get more out of his players than anyone else. Every time he has coached, he has taken a crappy team and turned them into a respectable one. His personality, on the other hand…
by marc on Aug 5, 2008 4:12 PM EDT reply actions
It seems that our team always have a bit of a tough road schedule to start the season… could this be due to NC State Football and the NC State Fair?
by Mateo on Aug 5, 2008 4:51 PM EDT reply actions
Mateo, yep, it’s because of the dreaded state fair.
Marc, I like Nolan as well, but then again I don’t have to work with him :-)
by Bubba on Aug 5, 2008 5:45 PM EDT reply actions
Mateo, you’ll love this. When they won the cup I was standing next Ms. Yamaguchi, long story, but, was in the right place and he just sorta was an arrogant ass. He also has sort of a Canadian accent, why I wondered where he’s from. So I watched him a little more the next year (gotta love Center Ice). I noticed he really doesn’t do much during a game, I guess like Ruff. This could be good or bad, he either has a plan and everything is on, or, he just doesn’t cope with a forced change of plans. One thing i noticed real fast was when he get’s “gum spitting mad” the ’Canes would lose. This has been a fun thing with my friends, you see it over and over.
So with out getting real involved, I feel he is not in control of the minute to minute coaching duties.
I do think he is a fine strategist.
He has a miserable temper and attitude.
Now with that said, I am usually screaming and yelling just like him at the same thing.
But, I ain’t the coach.
The ’Canes have always been an emotional team. When you see the shoulders sag and the coach goes on a rant, I blame the coach.
The capper was last year and the situation I mentioned earlier, he bones it bad. So that’s what I got against him in a quickie nut shell.
Same sort of feeling in a diff. situation with Cole. The kids good, but he never earned his check since the neck. And why yes, I have broken my neck and have a plate and 4 friggin’ lags holding two vertebrate together, so I do get what he went through.
My point here is that he dropped big time. I think he will shine up there and put up career numbers and have a letter on his sweater. He just needed that little tweak. I bet he plays out of his mind when he comes back here, think Corvo style.
Lavi’s just not my guy.
BTW, Carlyle’s next on my list. Hell Wilson seems to be a good coach, we’ll see what the great white north does to him.
Anyway, bottom line I find flaws in personality and method.
BFD, I’m just an armchair coach. Don’t mean squat. I will back it up and compare to Scotty Bowman. BTW, thanks for the stats and all, I always liked Bowman and knew the records, but never actually looked at them in context before and was just blown away by what that guy has done. Blew me away he went to Chicago, too….
Anyway, every team get’s bad calls and bad streaks. I remember being livid and throwing stuff at the TV and Scotty would just shake his head. Sometimes he’d cuss and yell, but the team would respond as a unit.
THAT, is what I like to see. Bowman worked his teams and owned them. Not just the Wings, he sucked as an opponent so it was much more fun when he was on “My” side. Anyway, the ’Canes do not respond to Lavi or the crap that happens with any consistancy. Except the cup year, they all worked. Anyway, look at old games and watch how the coach responds and then the team.
Two I like for the attitude they use are Mctavish and Tony Dungee. I can’t say enough about a coach that compliments the opposing teams feats and is honest about his own team and is a good sport about the whole thing. While neither is “the best”, they both coach in a style that I respect alot. Even Bowman wasn’t that cool and calm.
Anyway, minor insight.
BTW, bag a ticket down in the first row or 3 behind the bench and actually watch the bench and coach’s. LaRose is like a Mexican jumping bean and going a mile a minute, Lavi is either a post or livid. LaRose has an effect on the team with his actions and so does Lavi.
I’m glad we kept LaRose.
Anyway, best I can do real quick.
Hmmm, wasn’t “real quick” though was it?
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by Paladin6 on Aug 5, 2008 7:04 PM EDT reply actions
Quick footnote.
Was supposed to be “Unlike Ruff”, Ruff plays a head game sometimes and switchs lines, does fubar line changes just to throw the other team off balance and off the game. Sometimes it works. I find Lavi getting cudo’s for things like the all forward deal last year. He admits that wasn’t a genius plan, but a flat out desperate move.
I liked it, it worked. That the sort of stuff Ruff trys all the time. The diff. is that Ruff acts and Lavi reacts.
I am very worried that Lavi is almost forced into that situation again this year. I think he has a fair team and he has a pretty good game plan. The situation sucks bad eggs for him though. Like Bubba said the stupid fair and all throw our guys into a heavy road situation in Oct. 1 of the only home games is friggin’ Detroit. So a guy that knows he’s got something to prove get’s no home games, can’t build home fan momentum, has a team that hasn’t played together, just an awful mountain to climb.
So when I say he get’s us to the playoffs I’m off his case. I ain’t in the tank, I know what he’s got coming and if he swings that ax, I’d support him through his contract.
I just don’t think a mere American coach has it in him…..
;-)
yea that was low, but, hey,it’s worth what ya paid for it.
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by Paladin6 on Aug 5, 2008 7:19 PM EDT reply actions
^ I was at least getting your POV … and then you said you liked Ron Wilson. He single-handedly ruined the Sharks this past season after blaming Marleau (who played with an injured shoulder) for the team’s past playoff failures.
Anyway, just an observation … very good points on Lavi’s ’tude.
by Cory on Aug 5, 2008 8:19 PM EDT reply actions
Didn’t say I liked him. He’s got an interesting way of dealing with things. He also is a very in control guy.
He’s also an asshole.
He may turn into a good coach or he may whither on the vine. He’s in purgatory now, like Lavi. He either rises and becomes great or becomes fodder for others to trample upon.
My point was more on the lines he’s got some ability to really make shit happen.
It just ain’t always the right stuff. He could very well be a great coach. He could also be looking at his last gig with a salary with a comma in it.
“Like him” was not an intention, I phrased that wrong and appears included with Carlyle.
My bad. He’s one of those “prospects”. I like the fact that he can make stuff happen. I agree that the team should of been far better represented. I’m not sure he was off base with the statement, but if so also was wrong for playing him. See my critique on Lavi. I don’t have enough info to be sure he was at fault with that. That whole situation was a Mongolian cluster so and so. They had goal tending, they had scoring….
Maybe he was the fly in the beer. maybe he wanted to do something and wasn’t allowed to.
I just see leadership and command quality in him. If he can’t relate that into wins, success and consistant play, he whithers. If he does have a method, maybe a new venue allows him to shine.
Marleau didn’t earn his check, on thatb point I agree with Wilson. The way it was handled sucked. I don’t have enough info to lay it all on Wilson. I will admit he was fired for being a bit pissy and talking about stuff that doesn’t need to be public. I wait to see what he does now. He’s in a pirranah pool, so he either is a fish or bait. I do feel he will be a good coach.
But, I agree, he may wind up sharpening skates if he can’t produce and blames others for his or the teams short falls. It’s his job to make it work. I think there was alot more than meets the eye that sunk the Sharks.
Shame they had some good pieces for a killer run.
Point taken, he should not of been included with my other coach pref.
He’s just a guy on my radar that either gonna succeed or fail in a pretty loud way.
BTW.
Other uber stress on Lavi:
Think JR isn’t a bit interested in his future? That’s a GM now tied at the hip with the coach.
Don’t get me wrong, JR is a GM in the league at the drop of a hat. We fire him and he’s got a job by the end of the week. He;‘s good. I just think he may have put his nut’s on the block for Lavi and he’s gonna need results. Man that sure don’t make Lavi’s life easier and makes JR a whole lot more involved.
I dunno, we’ll see here soon. I do think Ron Wilson has the potential for being a great coach.
Don’t mean he doesn’t suck as a human.
Doesn’t mean I want him as a neighbor.
Doesn’t mean I want him as a coach, but, it does mean I like alot of what he has done and how.
I conceed a bad mention of him included with far better mentions.
We will be eating frozen crow if the Leafs crop up, though…
I can’t say i’d hate seeing that franchise get a little boost either. Politics and hockey, who’d ever of thought?
I guess my point is, he isn’t one to sell short. Don’t make him a killer type coach though either.
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by Paladin6 on Aug 5, 2008 9:13 PM EDT reply actions
Quote Repenttokyo “so when does paladin6 get his own blog?”
Funny stuff.
As for the Sabres in ‘06, the injuries excuse is pretty lame. Yes, if they were healthy, they MIGHT have won. But even if they were healthy, there’s no GUARANTEE they’d have won. But I guess if you don’t have a cup, your only option is finding an excuse to claim someone else’s. If we want to revisit that series in “fantasy mode”, we can only establish that the outcome MIGHT have been different.
As for Lavi, I like the guy. And I think he’s a good coach. But wins and losses are not just on the coach, they are also on the players (and unfortunately, sometimes on the refs). So just like we can’t induct him into the HOF right now for his current win percentage, we also can’t solely blame him for missing the playoffs. And, if we want to revisit the injuries argument above, it’s POSSIBLE that if the Canes’ hadn’t been bitten so badly by the injury (and flu) bug, they might have made (and POSSIBLY advanced) in the playoffs. But we’ll never know. And finally, with regard to missing the playoffs, why isn’t John Grahame getting some blame here? Did he ever win a game last year? And don’t forget Kaberle…
[Disclaimer: There’s a few tongue in cheek (and half tongue in cheek) comments above. If you miss them, don’t worry. There is no need to adjust your monitor. Your monitor is fine; it’s just that the key on my computer is broken…]
by East of Here on Aug 5, 2008 11:13 PM EDT reply actions
This ain’t my blog?
EOH,
That would be flu bug twice.
Not that I was counting or anything…
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by Paladin6 on Aug 6, 2008 6:03 AM EDT reply actions
Wow I step out for a week and you guys get lively!
Lavi is a good coach with issues. I think he was in jeopardy of losing the room last year, and that was my only real concern. I think he won;t have that issue this year.
I also found it funny that Paladin doesn’t like Ruff but likes Hitchcok. I always thought of the Ruff as being Hitchcock version 2 lol!
by wylde4canes on Aug 6, 2008 4:10 PM EDT reply actions
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