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My SE Division Top 10 Players

While scrolling through another blog, I came across their top 10 rankings for the Southeast Division.  So I decided to do my own.  The way I approached it was; if I was starting a team, which player would I most like to have to build around.  I used post lock-out stats and gut feelings.  Age was a consideration (if not Rod Brind'Amour would have been on this list).  I know there will be plenty of you that will disagree with my ranking and I understand.  Everyone has their own opinion of what players they like and what players they don't.  I did try to be somewhat objective.

10.  David Booth - LW - Florida

Last 2 year Avg - GP (73) - G (27) - A (24) - Pts (51) - +/- (12) - PIM (32)

Booth is a solid forward.  He has some speed, can play physical, and knows how to put the puck in the net.  He's not flashy, but the Panthers scheme doesn't really allowing him to be that type of player.  I wonder how his production would be in a different situation or in a different organization.  He is not a very good passer and in my opinion doesn't have top-notch skills.  Overall, he is a solid player that can score; a borderline 1st liner.

9.  Martin St. Louis - RW - Tampa Bay

Last 4 year Avg - GP (82) - G (32) - A (49) - Pts (81) - +/- (-4) - PIM (27)

Marty is a dynamite little winger.  He is super fast, can really handle the puck, is creative, and plays with heart.  Dispite his limited size, he produces points and can play any almost any situation.  He is a leader on the ice and always puts forth his best effort.  He's more of a playmaker than goal scorer, but that hard to tell from his stats.  His size is his biggest weakness; it limits him in some aspects.  He is a probably the second guy you want on your team after the more elite player. 

8.  Mike Green - D - Washington

Last 3 year Avg - GP (73) - G (17) - A (30) - Pts (47) - +/- (7) - PIM (55)

Green is the best offensive defenseman in this division.  He skates well, has a great shot, and doesn't mind delivering hits.  He really knows how to contribute to his team's offense, he is the perfect power play quarterback.  He does have some difficulty in his own zone.  He gets himself out of position and doesn't play the puck all that well.  If he could improve the defensive side of his game, he would easily be a top 3 defenseman in this league and he's pretty close to that now.

7.  Alexander Semin - RW - Washington

Last 3 year Avg - GP (67) - G (33) - A (32) - Pts (65) - +/- (0) - PIM (74)

Semin is a superb talent.  He's magic with the puck, can score from anywhere, has speed and some size.  When he's on the ice, you have to account for him or he'll burn you.  At times he looks like a top 5 player and other times, well he doesn't.  He needs to improve his consistency, learn how to play a little more physical, stay on the ice, and work on becoming an all-around player.  He has the skills and talent to be # 2 or # 3 on this list, I guess time will tell where he goes from here.

6.  Nicklas Backstrom - C - Washington

Last 2 year Avg - GP (82) - G (18) - A (61) - Pts (79) - +/- (15) - PIM (35)

Backstrom is a solid 1st line center.  He can control the puck and knows what to do with it.  He's durable and plays like an experienced leader.  He's not overly exciting, but that's not a knock on him; this kid can play.  He doesn't score a lot, but that doesn't seem to be his M O.  He is surrounded by some talented players and he knows how to get them involved.  This kid is going to be a very good two-way player for years to come.

5.  Cam Ward - G - Carolina

Last 4 year Avg - GP (56) - W (30) - L (19) - OTL (5) - GAA (2.81) - SV% (.903) - SO (3)

Cam is solid goalie that continues to improve every year.  He is not going to be a highlight reel goalie, but generally will keep you in games and usually finds a way to pull them out.  Almost all of his numbers have improved each year and he was the Conn Smythe Winner his first year in the league.  He does need to improve on his consistency, but it's hard to argue his results.  If you need one goalie for a long stretch or a pressure filled game, Cam is your guy.  It's often said your best defenseman is your goalie and in Carolina's case, that true.

4.  Vinny Lecavalier - C - Tampa Bay

Last 4 year Avg - GP (80) - G (39) - A (47) - Pts (86) - +/- (-6) - PIM (69)

Vinny is a franchise center.  He has size, speed, passing ability, and can score.  He plays a very good two-way game and leads on and off the ice.  There's not much to argue about except that I believe Vinny has pretty much reached his ceiling.  He has been surrounded by talented players, but plays for an organization that is run like crap.  He is steady and you know what you'll get from him year in and year out.  He is a complete player and would be a cornerstone for any team.

3.  Eric Staal - C - Carolina

Last 4 year Avg - GP (82) - G (38) - A (44) - Pts (82) - +/- (0) - PIM (62)

Staal is a very good all-around player.  He has size, speed, durablity, leadership, and scoring ability.  He can and does play in almost any situation.  He's more of a goal scorer than playmaker, but has also been limited in the talent around him.  I believe Staal carries more of his team burden than any other player in the SE Division.  He does need to improve his consistency though.  His effort sometimes lack game to game or period to period.  The only reason I ranked him higher than Lecavalier is that I think Staal ceiling might be a little higher.  He is a very good all-around player that still has the possibility of improving.

2.  Ilya Kovalchuk - LW - Atlanta

Last 4 year Avg - GP (80) - G (47) - A (41) - Pts (88) - +/- (-8) - PIM (59)

Ilya is a nightmare for opposing teams.  He is fast, big, and has a hard, accurate shot.  He is the definition of a hockey sniper.  If you need goals, Ilya can give them to you and in bunches.  His one weakness is his defensive play or the lack of defensive play.  He really doesn't seem to have any desire to play in his own zone, so his teammates must make up for him.  He focuses on the offensive side of the game and does a great drop at that.  Other than # 1 on my list, I can't think of a more dangerous scorer in the league right now.

1.  Alex Ovechkin - LW - Washington

Last 4 year Avg - GP (81) - G (55) - A (50) - Pts (105) - +/- (5) - PIM (54)

Ovie is just a remarkable player.  He has size, strength, speed, talent, creativity, and energy.  In my opinion, he is the best player in the NHL today.  He seems to score every game, will lay someone out with a big hit, and is just exciting to watch.  The one area of concern for me is his defensive responsibility.  He gets himself out of position every once in a while, when he is trying to cheat.  He trys to gain even more of an offensive advantage and sometimes puts his team in difficult situations.  Other than that, he is an outstanding player (and I think he makes up for his one minor shortfall).

Please let me know where you agree or disagree, I love reading your comments.


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I CONCUR!

 Martin St. Louis is a little too old for me to build a team around, but I can get behind all the rest. I might put Kovalchuk a little higher ( towards 10 ) but other than that the order looks good to me too.

Satan is just a coping mechanism for monotheists.

by wilmnoca on Aug 4, 2009 8:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Poor Florida...

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Aug 4, 2009 8:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Hmmm- my mind has been pondering this topic today too.

I’ve been spinning my wheels tonight at Pensburgh where they used the Japers Rink All-SE Div team in a hypothetical matchup with the Pensburgh’s All-Atlantic Team. (surprise, surprise: they picked the Atlantic allstars to win, but close)

LRCaniac chimed in this morning and I felt inspired to join the fray (big mistake!)

As for this list: Wouldn’t Whitney show up stronger than Booth? Only one D compared to 8 forwards? Is the SE D really tath bad? They liked Ballard as the top 2 D with Green. Would new-to-the-SE Ohlund, or Pits or Gleason deserve a mention?

FWIW – I told Hooks Orpik that if we was mean to me after I made my case for my full roster (22 players) I was gonna ask my buddies at Canes Country to come over there and beat him up…hope I didn’t presume too much. I have a lot more faith in your guys ability to make your case on these matters than I do in mine. I’m better off making up fish stories.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 4, 2009 9:23 PM EDT reply actions  

I did have a problem with the 10th spot. I was debating between Stamkos or Booth. Whitney is a good player, but I just don’t think top 10. And yes, I think the D in this division is a little weak.

by PackPride17 on Aug 4, 2009 9:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I did have a problem with the 10th spot. I was debating between Stamkos or Booth. Whitney is a good player, but I just don’t think top 10. And yes, I think the D in this division is a little weak.

by PackPride17 on Aug 4, 2009 9:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Or perhaps our offense is so strong….(trying to maintain the optimisitic vantage point)

I have a hard time knowing what the criteria is for this list or at Japers Rink/Pensburgh. Are we looking at longterm perceived ability and performance or a in-the-now snapshot as of today, using last season as the moment in time. Stamkos hasn’t reached his potential to play top-10 level tho we all expect he will. We eliminate Brindy because he’s no longer who he was in 06 or 01 or 96.

Whitney was 25- 45 – 70 (2 yr avg) not including the 11 pts he picked up post-season. Similar reg season GP (74), PIM (31) as Booth. His +/- wasn’t as good (-4),but then that’s the Canes…(am I rationalizing?)

Whitney even looks a lot better than Lecavalier the last couple years….so do we ignore Vinny’s numbers because we “know” he’s better than his recent stats….this is where I don’t know how one makes a case. If it’s just “gut feeling”, that’s fine, but then it’s hard to discuss and debate.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 4, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

i have a hard time knowing what the criteria is for this list or at Japers Rink/Pensburgh. Are we looking at longterm perceived ability and performance or a in-the-now snapshot as of today, using last season as the moment in time.

Good point. I made my list off of who I thought the Top 10 players in the division were right now. Obviously you’d use last season’s stats/performances to be a good indicator of who is about where.

Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*

*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night

by Hooks Orpik on Aug 6, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The D is coming … the SE loses Bouwmeester, but there are some real hotshot young guys. Hedman, Bogosian, Alzner, Carlson, Ellerby and McBain will all be good … a few should be top-10 division players (Hedman and Bogo specifically). TB also landed Lashoff … he’s decent.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 5, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I really was considering Bogosian, I liked the way he played at the end of the year. It’s just too small of a sample to put him in there right now. I haven’t seen Hedman play, but if everything is true about him, he will definitely be in the top 10 for years to come.

by PackPride17 on Aug 5, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think this would be more complicated if you started assembling a 22-man roster. Wouldn’t positions 11-22 leave leeway for less unified opinionating…?

Speaking of TB – isn’t Ohlund considered quite a haul?

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 5, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with a lot of this, I don’t think I’d take anyone off the list, I’d just change the order a little bit. Mike Green should be far higher. His defensive liabilities are vastly overstated. He never gets enough credit for how good he is in his own zone. Even so, that’s not the most egregious mistake you made. How could you accuse Mike Green of not playing the puck well? He’s a one man breakout, great at moving the puck through the neutral zone, and absolutely deadly in the offensive zone.

I think Cam Ward should be moved down a couple spots because I don’t think he’s elite. I think Staal moves down at least below Lecavalier because of consistency issues and personally I would put Backstrom ahead of Staal as well but it’s a very close call (and yes, there are Caps fans that disagree with me on that one). You hit the nail on the head with Semin. He could really be an elite player but he has been injured too much and takes too many dumb penalties (although by the way he plays against the ‘Canes I’d think you would be under the impression he’s the best player on the Caps). You should have spoken up over at Japers’ Rink and let your voice be heard.

Booth, St. Louis, Semin, Ward, Staal, Backstrom, Lecavalier, Kovalchuk, Green, Ovechkin.

by Rob Parker on Aug 4, 2009 11:36 PM EDT reply actions  

I think if every team the Caps played against wore a Canes jersey, Semin would finish the season with 356 points

by Iggy Reilly on Aug 5, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

welcome to our humble blog. glad you stopped by.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 5, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I realize this is a heated discussion – but I am learning a lot from the discourse going beyond the usual ‘atta boys’ amongst ourselves I appreciate the thought and points that are being made by our dedicated Caniac bloggers when faced with some of the standard lines we hear from critics.

While I haven’t the knowledge or skill to argue stats and history, I do see that the Canes are “different” in their total team chemistry – today’s story on Canes Day at the NHL.com 30-in-30 seems to focus on that aspect. It’s hard for others to understand when they see their teams as a handful of marquis players. It’s the teams (in any sport) that are lucky enough to find the glue the Canes show now that we remember for generations, even if they don’t bring down championships every year. That’s worth something.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Methinks you’re a little Caps biased. The Caps have THREE guys on their team better than Staal? C’mon now…

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 5, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

I could maybe concede Vinny higher than Staal. I really had them 3a and 3b. Backstrom is a good player, I just can’t see him higher than Staal and Ward. Green is way to high in my opinion, I don’t see how you have him # 2.

by PackPride17 on Aug 5, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m assuming neither you nor Cory are going to dispute AO. So now we are only talking about 2 Caps. Green is the Norris runner up. You guys want to knock his D but that critique is very overplayed and not that accurate. Check the Mirtle post. He’s top 10 in “Best Defensive Defensemen” according to Mirtle. Even if you think he’s lower than 10 I don’t see how you can drop him all that far. The Caps don’t have a stud defensive guy that covers his back, so Green does have to play in his own end. He dominated the defensive scoring categories and missed 1/5 of the season. He plays more minutes than any other skater on this list. I don’t see how he could be lower than 4.

I said that Staal v. Backstrom was a close call. I like Backstrom over Staal because Backstrom is more consistent, and I think he has better upside. When CAR slumped last year Staal was nowhere to be found. When they were hot down the stretch, so was he. Even in the playoffs he was streaky. He had games where he was invisible, and games where he dominated. Backstrom may not dominate, but he was also never invisible. I recognize that Staal is THE offensive weapon on his team, but I don’t know how you can punish Backstrom for that. Backstrom, by virtue of playing with AO, still sees every team’s top D pairs and lines, yet he still scores consistently. Staal scored a lot more playing with Cole. You can’t say that Staal doesn’t benefit from playing with good players just like anyone else. Staal may be averaging good numbers post-lockout, but he hasn’t even come close to replicating the SC year that built his reputation. Backstrom is very consistent, and he’s younger. He was a top ten scorer this year, and he’s getting better. He doesn’t score as much as Staal but he has a good shot. Swedish centers are trained to be heavily pass-first and when he starts feeling more confident and shooting more, he will score more.

Just to bolster my point about Backstrom’s consistency compared to Staal’s:

These are the G-A-P totals for both players in ten game segments over the course of the season.

Staal: (4-3-7) (4-2-6) (3-4-7) (7-3-10) (3-3-6) (6-4-10) (5-11-16) (8-7-15, 12 games) 75 points total.

Backstrom: (0-4-4) (4-11-15) (5-6-11) (2-12-14) (1-5-6) (3-11-14) (4-6-10) (3-12-15, 12 games) 88 points total.

Backstrom had 2 ten game segments where he averaged less than a point a game, Staal had 4 (half the season). Staal had two huge segments late in the year where he was between 1.25 and 1.5 points per game. Backstrom had 4 such segments.

by Rob Parker on Aug 5, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

It’s a lot easier to get points when you have three elite goal scorers on your team (AO, Green, Semin). The fact that Semin had 45 assists is proof enough of that point. That’s not discounting Backstrom’s talent — he’s immensely skilled and a great passer— but I could probably get 30 assists just sliding the puck to AO in my own end and watching him weave thru the opposition and score.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 5, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree with you. given a choice of Staal or Backstrom on my team, it’s all Staal, no question.

GM of CanesCountry.com

by Bob Wage on Aug 5, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey man, I’m just laying out my case. I wish you guys would have joined over at Japers’ went we went through the debate for full context. AO’s points went down this year and Backstrom’s went up, so you can’t really say that he relies on AO. Yeah, there’s a lot of offense on the Caps but Backstrom is a major reason why.

by Rob Parker on Aug 5, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

AO went down just two points (albeit a sign. number of goals). But Green and Semin went from 98 total to 167. I don’t deny that Backstrom is a key cog in the Caps’ attack. But would you really pick Backstrom ahead of Staal to play in the middle with AO?

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 5, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we are talking about a player to play with AO it’s actually more in favor of Backstrom than Staal because Staal is a drive the net and shoot guy and Backstrom is a puck possession passer. AO doesn’t need another guy to bull rush the net, he needs a guy to create space and dish. I wouldn’t mind seeing Staal with AO, but I think Backstrom’s game is a perfect compliment. I’m not trying to take anything away from Staal, I’ve tried to stress a couple times that I think it’s a real close call. I gave you my reasoning and some stats to support where I’m coming from and you haven’t really refuted any of that. Bubba was downright dismissive of my points and you still seem incredulous. Why don’t you make the case for Staal that he’s so clearly better than Backstrom?

by Rob Parker on Aug 5, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you the person who thinks winning the Cup is irrelevant and leading the league in post season scoring during the Cup run is also irrelevant?

Backstrom has been in the league for just two years. Let’s not put him in the Hall of Fame just yet. Staal has scored 164 goals in his career to just 36 for NB.

But, at this moment I will agree with you partially and say that Backstrom is a better fit with AO. He is a set up person and Staal usually is not. But I thought the question was, who would you prefer on your team? My personal choice is Staal.

You will find out that the people who are most sought after in this league and the players who make the most money are the guys who can put the puck in the net, not the guys who rack up second assists while they watch the top player in the league score night after night.

Put Backstrom on the Canes and have him take Staal’s spot and I have no doubt he scores fewer goals and probably has fewer assists.

GM of CanesCountry.com

by Bob Wage on Aug 6, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I think being on a team that wins the Cup is not a relevant factor when evaluating whether player A is better than player B because winning the Cup is a team function and so much of winning it is out of the control of players A and B.

I don’t think it’s irrelevant in a grand sense, obviously it’s pretty awesome to win the Cup and Staal should be proud that he was the leading scorer. But that doesn’t make him a more talented player in a concrete sense. Whatever gains Staal got from winning the Cup (presumably through experience) he already had when Backstrom got into the league. In the two years Backstrom has been in the league, he has outperformed Staal, even with Staal’s Cup ring. Why should Staal get credit for winning a Cup when all he did was watch Cam Ward get white hot and stone the opposition every night? How much better does the Cup win make Staal? Is he better than Joe Thornton? Patrick Marleau? Jerome Iginla? Marian Hossa? Dany Heatley?

You will find out that the people who are most sought after in this league and the players who make the most money are the guys who can put the puck in the net, not the guys who rack up second assists while they watch the top player in the league score night after night.

That’s an incredibly shallow and lazy argument, it’s disappointing and surprising to see from a guy that runs an SBN blog. First, nobody is talking about salaries. Second, if you look at most lists of best NHL players some of the top guy (2 of the top 3 in fact) are not among the top goal scorers in the league. No argument about the value of a goal scorer, but I’ve laid out my argument for Backstrom and you really haven’t said much to refute it. You obviously came across my argument before and chose not to address it, and you don’t seem any more inclined to advance a serious argument now so we can let it go.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Bubba’s main point is that if Backstrom where on the Canes, and Staal on the Caps(not changing ANY other players)- is it really likely for Backstrom to have more points then Staal?

You can put out Backstrom’s stats all you want, but the fact is that Backstrom plays with AT LEAST two other elite scorers, where Staal has absolutely NONE. Its not hard for Backstrom to be more consistent because he does not HAVE to be great every night. He does not HAVE to carry his team.

also

Is NB an EVERY situation type of guy like Staal is? I have not seen enough Washington games to know for sure.

As far as Mike Green goes- of course he has more TOI then any other player on this list!! First of all he is a defensman.. and also a great PP QB. With an uptempo style the Caps play, they draw a lot of penalties. That is a no-brainer.

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 6, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Caps actually don’t draw as many PIM as you would think for a variety of reasons. You can justify Green’s ice time but the point remains that a guy that those minutes are another measure of value. The Caps would have to replace those minutes without him and they wouldn’t be able to replace those minutes with comparable quality. NB can play every situation but BB doesn’t use him as much on the PK at this point in his career, I’d expect that to change a little in the next couple years. NB may not score as much if he were on the ‘Canes, but let’s not pretend the ‘Canes are an anemic offense. The PP is still dangerous and they play an uptempo attack style of game. NB may need to adjust his game, and he wouldn’t score as many goals as Staal, but I think he’d still be a very productive player and you guys would be more than pleased with his play.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

How do you justify this statement-

“Why should Staal get credit for winning a Cup when all he did was watch Cam Ward get white hot and stone the opposition every night?”

When in reality:
Staal led all players in assists, #3 in goals, #1 in points, and played in EVERY game of the playoffs…

Cam only played in 23 games to Staal’s 25.

Sure Cam was great… but Staal did far from “watch Cam Ward get hot”.

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 6, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t really advance that statement as a legitimate argument. I justify it because I was just returning the favor. Look at the block quote I selected from Bubba’s post; I applied the same logic to Staal that he applied to Backstrom. Backstrom was a top 10 scorer last year (the youngest of the group). I don’t think it’s fair to say he just watched AO score goals every night and got second assists. Yeah, Backstrom has AO playing awesome and that helps the team’s cause, but that doesn’t take away from Backstrom. Backstrom excels at the things he controls (except face offs, for now) and that’s what he should be evaluated on, the same as Staal.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

F&B

Winning the Cup is a team function, yet winning regular season games is not? So Backstrom’s numbers are more significant? Are we comparing the accomplishments of the two players, or not? Why is winning the Cup meaningless? I just don’t get it. Mark Messier would love your arguments. LOL

It’s the most significant achievement in the sport, it’s the main reason everyone is playing, and it’s ludicrous to say it doesn’t matter. Staal has come through when the pressure has been the greatest and has been the best scorer in the league when it mattered the most. That’s why he has been on the cover of video games and has been an All Star MVP.

Tell me one thing Backstrom has achieved in this league?

While Cam Ward earned the Conn Smythe, he did not score a single goal and you need to score goals to win games, don’t you? Staal just didn’t stand there and watch Wardo win every game. I never said that Staal should get all the credit for winning the Cup, I said that is another reason he is better than Backstrom. Period.

And I never compared Staal to all the other players you mentioned, this is between him and Backstrom. Are you making up stuff as you go?

You claim Backstrom outplayed him in the past two years, yet Staal outscored NB 78 goals to 36. But then again, according to you scoring goals is easy and picking up second assists while AO is scoring all the goals is the toughest thing to do, right?

As to why I never argued with you before, I don’t go to other blogs and call people shallow and lazy. It’s not my thing. Everyone has the right to their own opinion, no matter how ill-conceived I think it is

GM of CanesCountry.com

by Bob Wage on Aug 6, 2009 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Amen Bubba

And I think we may have discovered the "troll’ that votes and F for every player.

by SouthernHockeyFan on Aug 6, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not a troll and I’ve never voted on this site. I’m making legitimate arguments and backing up my position. I’m not sure what your definition of troll is but I dispute that characterization.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

U R A Troll...

troll:One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

by SouthernHockeyFan on Aug 6, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

I tend to think of trolls as people that just try to incite and don’t have real arguments to back their position. I’m not saying “Staal is teh suck!” I’m saying him and Backstrom are both great players and laid out a logical argument, backed by some statistics, demonstrating why. If that’s trolling around here then by all means let me apologize. I thought maybe a hockey blog was looking for real hockey discussion.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

F&B:

Does this mean you didn’t even vote on my post regarding the fate of Babchuk-fish? .

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I did not vote on that post. It had been a very long time since I’d been by this site until our meeting over at Pensburgh.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s the fanpost right below this one. You can’t miss my underdog avatar.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I normally don’t call people shallow and lazy, but you particularly deserved it. Again, you rehash the “second assists” argument. Lame. Can you demonstrate how many of Backstrom’s assists were secondary? Of course not, that would require way too much work for you.

How does the ‘Canes winning the Cup make Staal better than Backstrom? What’s your theory? He was on a better team and played well? Backstrom’s points per game in the playoffs are exactly even with Staal’s. When the team needs them they both show up. So what if Staal’s team helped him go further. I mentioned the other guys because those are guys that are somewhere around the same caliber as Staal but without Cups. How does that make them less of a player?

You claim Backstrom outplayed him in the past two years, yet Staal outscored NB 78 goals to 36.

Yeah Staal has more goals than Backstrom, but Backstrom has more points, they do still count those right? Backstrom increased his point totals this year, Staal decreased. Backstrom was a top 10 scorer, Staal wasn’t.

I never said that Staal should get all the credit for winning the Cup, I said that is another reason he is better than Backstrom.

You actually never named a first reason, so there isn’t really another reason. Yeah, Staal scores more goals. How many guys score more goals than Sidney Crosby? 19. How many of those guys would you take over Crosby? Just a couple, maybe. I’m glad you’ve got such a well developed understanding of Backstrom’s game, Staal’s game, and the game of hockey. Well done Bubba.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

The thing is you keep bringing up that Backstrom is better because of all the assists he has. Take most any player and put him on a line with AO and his points are going to be inflated. Period. Which makes your argument that Staal only won the Cup and led the playoffs in scoring because he was on a good team very ludicrous.

Here’s why Staal absolutely deserves to be ranked higher than Backstrom: When the game is on the line, and the seconds are ticking down to zero, who would you rather have their stick on the puck, Staal or Backstrom? Staal is going to put the puck in the net, and has regularly in that situation. Both in the regular season as well as in the playoffs, in games when it matters most. Backstrom may be able to set up a play for the goal, but you still need to have that goal scorer for him to pass to.

One of your main arguments is that Backstrom is more consistent. But is he more consistent because he’s the one setting up the plays and the others on the line are benefiting from him, or is he more consistent because he has such good players on his line and so he’s benefiting from them? Staal doesn’t have the same luxury on his line. Sometimes he has Whitney who is a good playmaker, but for most of the past couple of seasons he hasn’t had that setup man with him. He also hasn’t had another good goal scoring forward to help take the pressure of the opposing D off of him. Couldn’t Staal be more inconsistent because the game falls on his shoulders every night, where for Backstrom it falls on AO before him? A lot easier to play your game when the other team isn’t focused on you.

Staal has more experience. He’s a more rounded player. He’s a leader both in the locker room and on the ice, and leads by example. There’s no way Backstrom comes close to being above Staal on any list other than best setup men.

by Pirate Caniac on Aug 6, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your arguments in previous comments may not be concidered trolling… but now your getting to that point. Bubba is a great blogger, and calling him shallow and lazy(twice now) is insulting to every other blogger in the SB network as far as I am concerned. Another troll like thing to do is to completely discredit an argument, and say “again you use this arguement. lame.” and act like it is not worthy. If you dont like the argument go somewhere else.

The goals vs assists argument is VERY legitimate. Especially considering you get a full point for either a goal, a primary assist, or a secondary assist. We all understand that NB is doing more then watching AO score goals(that point was made in the same light as yours about Staal watching Ward), however it is a lot easier to score points when you have elite scorers. That is the truth. Period. No matter how way you look at it.

Didnt NB have more assists then a rookie in NHL history or something? And got something like 4 assists in two straight games? Do you REALLY think that AO and Semin and Green didnt have ANYTHING to do with that.

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 6, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you both for actually responding with arguments.

Re: The shot at Bubba. If Bubba had limited his comment to assists v. goals it would be one thing, but twice he made snarky comments about “second assists.” That is lame. If a Caps fan says Sid gets all his point from second assists we get shot down immediately because it’s not a legitimate argument. I stand by my characterization of his treatment of my argument. Maybe he is a good blogger, I don’t come around here enough. I’m probably just spoiled by getting to read J.P., DMG, etc. all the time.

NB comes through in crunch time, even if you guys don’t see it. He scored the game tying goal against PIT in game 3, when it looked like the Caps were dead and buried. He was an absolute stud in games 3 and 5 against the Rags, both must wins.

I never tried to take anything away from Staal, I’m just trying to support my personal preference. I’m not dismissing or discrediting your opinions, as I feel you do mine.

Yes, NB benefits from playing with great players. I don’t see why that should be held against him. Staal’s production this year took off when Cole returned, he’s not a one man wrecking crew; he benefits from talent like anyone else.

Staal does have more experience but I don’t think he’s a more well-rounded player. I think they both are very good in their own end. I can give you leadership for Staal, but Backstrom is going into his 3rd year; Staal wasn’t a leader in his second year.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

ad hominem

Definition: attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering his argument.
-—————————————————————————-
You went after Bubba personally because he made a reference to second assists? That logic doesn’t make any sense.

Staal wasn’t a leader in his second year because Rod the Bod was the absolute rock in that locker room and for the #1 forward line. However, when the need arose Staal took over that role seamlessly.

Lets not confuse need with ability.

by James Dator on Aug 6, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t disagree with you on the leadership. I wasn’t insulting Bubba personally, I was insulting the argument he advanced. He may not be lazy and shallow; he probably isn’t lazy if he runs this blog. But relying on the ol’ secondary assist argument with nothing else is lazy and shallow. The sticking point for me is consistency, and notwithstanding the Caps’ greater depth Backstrom has been more consistent. It’s hard to separate his performance from AO’s and I think it’s unfair to punish him for being on AO’s line.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see what you're saying...

it is nearly impossible to distinguish how many assists were a direct corrolation to being on AOs line, however, Staal has shown equal production in his years in the league regardless of what line he plays on.

If you look deep into Backstrom’s stats (back into juniors and Swedish leagues) you see a career assist to goal ratio of 1.63 to 1.

When he made the move to the Caps his ratio changed to 3.36 to 1.

He experienced an average jump of 1.73 assists per goal. I think you can see why this could be attributed to playing with AO and on his line, there is simply no other change that could account for this proliferation in assists.

Staal fluctuates between having a greater goal to assist ratio, sometime he scores more, sometimes he assists more. His game changes based on the needs of his line and the needs of his team.

Most Cane’s fans would agree that he still hasn’t had the opportunity to play alongside either an elite scorer, or an elite passer that could skew his stats one way or another, so ultimately I feel that Staal is the superior player.

by James Dator on Aug 6, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can respect that argument. The only thing I’d say about NB’s prior stats is that the SEL is a notoriously low scoring league but without great goalies. When you get a chance it’s easier to finish, but setting up plays is very difficult because of the defensive systems they run. I’m not sure that explains the difference but it’s another factor to consider.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I sincerely apologize for playing the “second assist card”. Obviously, that is an extremely sensitive topic to you.

I usually don’t enter into these types of discussions because they are a complete waste of time. You have your opinions, and all the stats and logic in the world will never change your mind.

You are someone who believes that winning the Cup is meaningless, that leading your team in scoring, and the NHL in post season scoring while you win the Cup, is irrelevant, and you want me to take your argument seriously?

If you can’t see that playing on the same line with the best player in the universe won’t inflate a person’s stats, then there is nothing more to be said.

Bottom line, put Staal in Florida and he is the same player and will score about the same number of points. Put Backstrom in Florida and he scores half of his assists.

End of story.

GM of CanesCountry.com

by Bob Wage on Aug 6, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are someone who believes that winning the Cup is meaningless, that leading your team in scoring, and the NHL in post season scoring while you win the Cup, is irrelevant, and you want me to take your argument seriously?

Again, I never said that, but good reading comprehension for you. How does a Cup ring make a player better? Is Staal better than Joe Thornton because he has a Cup ring? Right, You’ve got no response or you would have used it.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

There aren’t articles year after year about him being incapable of performing in the playoffs. He hasn’t been traded away from a team b/c they thought they couldn’t win with him.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

So do you think that makes him a better player? Who would you pick first given the chance? And if it’s Staal, is it solely because of the Cup run?

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would, and I’ll tell you why. Joe’s more talented, but he doesn’t have the drive to take over a game at a crucial time. I love watching him play, but he lacks a killer instinct.

While I wouldn’t pick Staal because he has a Cup, I believe he has a Cup, in part, b/c he is a more determined player.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

OI? Not sure what that means.

The secondary assist argument is lazy because it dismisses the rest of his game, implies that the majority of his assists are in fact secondary (a premise he failed to establish despite available data), and it side-steps a legitimate and reasoned argument. Sure, it’s harder to make a case when you take a player’s game seriously but I thought that’s what the SBN network was all about.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

ol' as in old... as you used it above.

I guess the capital O made it look funny.

Does it really matter if they are primary or secondary assists though? A goalie can get a primary assist, if he just passes the puck to AO who beasts through and scores. To really find out what NB’s assists look like, one would have to dig through every assist he had. I dont think anyone has the time to do that.

How is it side stepping a legitimate and reasoned argument? Your really not listening to our argument at all. The assists(primary OR secondary) are one of the advantages of working with Elite scorers… period. NB’s goals are nowhere near Staal’s. Period.

You bring up the fact that Staal played great once reunited with Cole. That is true, but he SCORED GOALS. Then what happened during the POs? I highly doubt you can put Erik Cole into the same discussion as AO and Semin though. We might be hard headed biased Canes fans, but we are not delusional…

On consistency- NB has Staal beat. But if NB is consistently a grood player, does it really make him better then a player who can be great? If Cole is what helps make Staal play better, is it not a misconception to think that Staal will be lights out this year, for a WHOLE year, and his consistency will go up?

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 6, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

leaving Backstrom aside for now, and picking up the consistency theme, Lacavalier hasn’t put up a lot of points lately. last 3 yrs: 108, 92, 67 with terrible +/-. (-89 career, and only one year better than +2)

Then why does Staal get placed below him by non-Canes “experts”? (both JR and Pensburgh) I’m trying to understand what this is about. Is it silly or is there something I’m missing?

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

in the above post: JR= Japers Rink (not Mr Rutherford’s oft-used monogram)

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lecavalier has been hurt the last two years so it’s hard to just look at those numbers. He had MVP caliber years a couple times before so I think people give him a break for his full body of work.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cole was amazing before the neck injury, but he’s never gonna make anyone’s list now. It seems the “rules” are pretty flexible
and subjective….

I would prefer a more specific question and the discussion might be a little less strained:
The Atlantic and SE Division are planning an allstar pre-season inter-divisional exhibition game Sept 15, 2009. Who is the coach and who is on the team for each side?

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I argued at the Rink, I’d take Staal over Backstrom right now, so don’t assume a position.

For the purpose of a hypothetical game I kept Backstrom with Ovechkin, since they play together and make a more logical pairing.

Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*

*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night

by Hooks Orpik on Aug 6, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

But you had Lecavalier on the 2nd line and Staal on the 3rd. I didn’t get that based on the last season’s numbers.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rough year last year for Vinny and everyone in TB.

I didn’t base everything off of last year’s numbers, just liked the dynamic of Lecavalier-St. Louis, as well as the potential for Staal-Booth.

You could pretty much flip either line, doesn’t really matter and certainly not worth getting upset over as a snub of Staal, because it’s not.

Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*

*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night

by Hooks Orpik on Aug 6, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Appreciate the clarification, but I can’t see why you made that call in the first place. And having spent some time the previous week reading the strident Staal-bashing comments (perhaps more from Caps fans than the JR Blog’s editors), it’s hard not to see it as unjustified and “piling on”. Not hard to see it as a snub. (there even seems to be some debate that Backstrom deserved to be placed above Staal, in case ya hadn’t noticed – but I took the chemistry with Semin and AO as valid).

Again, based on last season’s numbers, why would you fill in Booth, over Whitney, (I wish I could find the TSN story describing the Wizard as one of the most under-rated forwards in the conf) ? I asked the same of the guy who wrote this post – I don’t know much about Booth but his description above and those numbers are not inspiring if we’re talking about “now”.

As a ’canes fan with the standard-issue paranoia that no one outside of Carolina takes us seriously as a team or as fans, despite a very strong play-off record the last 10 years, please educate me.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, based on last season’s numbers, why would you fill in Booth, over Whitney, (I wish I could find the TSN story describing the Wizard as one of the most under-rated forwards in the conf) ?

Again, it’s not based solely off of last season’s numbers, it’s based off who the best player is right now. David Booth is a great player that’s not surrounded by much help. Whitney had a great year and nice stats, but Booth is a better talent IMO.

Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*

*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night

by Hooks Orpik on Aug 6, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love Booth … man, is he fun to watch. He might be the fastest guy in the division.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

The secondary assist thing is a way to knock a player. I’ve seen it used in Crosby v. AO debates enough to know the purpose. Emphasizing (or even mentioning) the secondary point tries to imply he wasn’t really a part of the play; that he just happened to pass to a guy that passed to AO. If you want to focus on Goals v. Assists then fine, do that, but don’t focus on Goals v. Secondary Assists. That’s a straw man. If you want to knock NB on secondary A’s then go do the research to support your point. Don’t just throw it out there. As you said, it would be ridiculously time consuming, but that doesn’t mean you can just throw it out there.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It may be a straw for you… but it is a legitimate argument. If you cant handle it I suggest you go do the research to prove it wrong. And I can “just throw it out there”.

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 6, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Staal’s production this year took off when Cole returned, he’s not a one man wrecking crew; he benefits from talent like anyone else.”

That pretty much sums up what we’re saying. Give Staal a good line to play on like Backstrom has, and then the points go in favor of Staal for all of this. Which when you’re basing it so heavily on points scored, you’ve got to take into consideration.

I’m not trying to take away from Backstrom. He’s a good player already, and is young and still developing. Heck, I’d love to have him on the Canes’ first line with Staal. But if Staal or some other elite scorer isn’t there on that line with him, then he’s not going to be as much good. He needs a player on his line more than a Staal or Ovechkin needs him. That’s not to say that he won’t be able to develop into a player than can do it on his own, just that he isn’t now.

This isn’t a list for best roster. It’s a list of the best players. And the very best players are the ones who can take over a game when they step on the ice. And this is the Top 10 players in the SE now, not of the future.

by Pirate Caniac on Aug 6, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough. I disagree with your conclusion but at least you’ve advanced a coherent and logical argument.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, if everyone agreed on everything, life would be pretty boring. ;)

by Pirate Caniac on Aug 6, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. I didn’t come over here to hear the same arguments I see elsewhere.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you hear the same argument in multiple places- no connection to the two… you MIGHT want to take a second look at what it is that is being said. Has to be a little truth to it.

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 6, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was looking for ‘Canes fans take on the situation. Don’t turn this around, I’m just looking for debate. I know there is a good case to be made for Staal, I never said there wasn’t. I was hoping to get something nuanced from the people that watch Staal the most.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well you heard what we have to say...

if you dont like it… there is not much I can do about that.

I dont understand what you meant by “dont turn this around”… and how it relates to what I said above.

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 6, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let me start off by saying that both Staal and Backstrom are very talented players and would be an asset on almost any team in the NHL. I am a Canes fan and would perfer Staal, but I understand your point Fehr and Balanced.

Backstrom had 88 points this year compared to Staal’s 75. Backstrom contributed to 33% of the Caps goals, Staal 32% of the Canes goals. If the Canes scored the same number of goals as the Caps, Staal in theory would have ended up with 86 points. Power Play points accounted for 48% of Backstrom’s points, Staal 32%. This indicates Backstrom or his teammates are much better with the man advantage. I think that is more of a team thing than a Backstrom thing. Staal scored 17% of his team’s goals, Backstrom 9%. Backstrom assisted on goals by 8 different Caps, Staal assisted on goals by 12 different Canes. To me, this indicates Staal is more capable of playing with a variety of players. Lastly, Ovechkin did have his hand for 32 of Backstrom’s points (37%). Just pointing out there is an advantage playing with Ovie.

Again, I’m not bashing Backstrom – he is a very good player as the stats indicate. I just perfer Staal over Backstrom.

by PackPride17 on Aug 6, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with all of this except the conclusion. Great statistical analysis, that must have taken a while. I haven’t looked it up but I wonder what percentage of league goals are scored on the PP. It seems to me having a lethal PP is extremely important in the “New” NHL so PP production has independent value of just the points. That said, all goals count the same so it doesn’t really matter how you get it done. Both guys have different methods but there is no dispute that they do both get it done.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that they are both very good players that do play a different style of game. I agree with an earlier comment of your that said Backstrom is a better linemate for Ovie than Staal would be. I guess we’ll just agree to disagree on who the better player is. That’s the fun of debating, everyone’s view are different. Bottom line, you have your man Backstrom and I have mine in Staal. Let’s see how things shake out during the upcoming season. GO CANES!!!

by PackPride17 on Aug 6, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this is all around a really good top 10 of the SE.

The SEast teams D is weak… very. Green deserves to be on this list in an offensive division. I share your thoughts about his own end play also. I would not say he is awful, but Babchuck’s regular season was not any worse either..

I see your point with the Staal/Vinny placement, but would understand if Vinny were placed at 3 also.

Kavalchuk is a beast.

Semin makes me want to break my tv.

Ovechkin is amazing… I would say Malkin is better, but I really do not want to get into that argument(especially with Caps fans), its just my opinion and I am not going to change it.

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 5, 2009 2:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Purely a stat analysis

Secondary assists on Washington …

Backstrom had .70 per 60 minutes, the most other than Keith Aucoin, who played 12 games. Semin led the team in primaries at 1.25. Backstrom was second at 1.11.

Staal averages .70 primary assists per game, .45 secondary. But he averages 1.16 goal per 60, while Backstrom averages .40.

Out of players who played at least 70 games, Backstrom was 22nd in most secondary assists.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2009 1:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Now draw a conclusion from that. What exactly does that mean? I’ll accept that Backstrom benefits from playing with AO, but there is no way to know how much he benefits from that. The implication is that he wouldn’t score anywhere near the same amount of points, but there is no way to test it. I guess we all just have to wait until Vancouver 2010 to see how they perform when they are both on stacked teams… if Staal makes it.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Last line a joke. Relax people.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said in the header, here are the stats. You asked if we could demonstrate how many of his assists were secondary … there you go.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, but what does it matter that it’s secondary. Bubba threw it out there to dismiss his game, without the stats. Now you’ve provided the stats. Please explain how that detracts from his game. NB was T-3rd in the league in assists, but 22nd in secondary assists, I’d say relative to the league he’s doing pretty well with the primary assists. I’m not sure it even matters though because I still don’t have a good handle on the relevance of secondary assists, other than a way to dismiss a playmaker’s game.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont think it was ever used to “dismiss” NB’s game… just a point in an opinion on why his game is not better then Staal’s.

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 6, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you say so. The way I read it was a way to dismiss his game.

not the guys who rack up second assists while they watch the top player in the league score night after night.
But then again, according to you scoring goals is easy and picking up second assists while AO is scoring all the goals is the toughest thing to do, right?

Both of those sound pretty dismissive to me.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was that before or after you called him lazy and shallow on his own blog, when the guy has been nothing but stand-up and very informative through out the history of this blog?

by packpigskinfan25 on Aug 6, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I called him lazy and shallow in response to the first block quote. He responded with the second block quote. I can’t comment on his history, and I’m sure he has done a great job with the blog if SBN picked him up, but I stand by my characterization of his treatment of Backstrom v. Staal.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also from that site (http://www.behindthenet.ca/), Staal had more points per 60 than Backstrom (btw, all of this is 5-on-5) … 2.32 to 2.22.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2009 1:10 PM EDT reply actions  

And NB had better PP production. I’m glad you’re at least digging for relevant info now, I just wish you would have done it up earlier or brought your POV to the original discussion at Japers’.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t even know there was a discussion going on over there … but love his site.

I never doubted for a minute that NB’s PP stats were better … that’s a lethal PP team (and, yes, he’s part of it) and the Canes simply were not.

The Caps had two of the top four PPG scorers this year (AO 19 and Green 18) and the Canes had Staal (14) then Ruutu (10). That’s a huge difference. Backstrom was fourth in the league in PP assists, plus got 14 of his 22 goals with the man advantage. He is the only 80-point player with more PP points than ES points.

Again, I’m not saying he’s lucky or not a part of it, but he’s extremely fortunate to play where he plays.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not surprised by those numbers either, I just don’t know whether there is any higher value to 5 on 5 scoring compared to PP scoring.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

At the end of the day, they’re all worth the same on the scoreboard. The point is, they’re easier to get.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

WOW!!!

I didn’t know my post would start this much hostility. Sorry if I have offended anyone. I do enjoy seeing the passion.

by PackPride17 on Aug 6, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Ha. I’m pretty sure you weren’t the one that brought out the hostility. I like the post, I love to debate hockey.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

No need to apologize, I don’t think anyone was offended. As I mentioned earlier, everyone has a right to their own opinion and it has been a good discussion.

GM of CanesCountry.com

by Bob Wage on Aug 6, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

This has been great to read from my perspective (even if the primary posters have had to take a little extra blood pressure meds). Thank you, fellow Caniacs, for raising the quality of the argument and analysis to an even higher level. Thanks to F&B for pushing them.

Hooks Orpik seems to have made an appearance, so it’s good to get someone outside the division here. And it’s not like Caps and Canes fans don’t have some issues with his Pens…

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t see how either fanbase could resent the Pens…. ;)

Good debate, I think it’s a lot of personal preference. And, as kind of alluded to, it’s difficult to rank individual players very objectively when a lot of factors in terms of their teammates, injuries, power-plays, etc can positively or negatively affect statistical output, sometimes through no fault of the player’s own.

Especially with the natural biases we all have. Shocker the Caps fans like the Capital players in a close debate, the Carolina fans like the Hurricane players, and if we were arguing Penguins, I’d probably like that party if it was a close argument. I suppose that’s just the way it goes sometimes.

Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*

*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night

by Hooks Orpik on Aug 6, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can at least vouch that there were Caps fans that disagreed with my assessment of Staal v. Backstrom. It’s not a Unitarian homer community over there. Hockeymomof2, I’m glad you appreciated my input. Good talk.

by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Now for My Next Canes/Caps Argument!

Which one is funnier?

Alexander Semin’s fighting technique
vs
Chad LaRose jawing with Sean Avery

Just kidding everyone.

by PackPride17 on Aug 6, 2009 5:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Great question: I like it!

Rosey = clever, daring, and oh so funny (his D in the L was on tonight!)- I see LaRose’s name dropped all over the ’net now as Mr Cool and lovable (not bad for the Chuck Norris of Hockey)

Semin = memorably pathetic

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2009 6:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Lecavalier is better than Staal.

by Killswitch on Aug 6, 2009 8:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I can't disagree...

When healthy, Lecavalier is one of the best players in the league, let alone the Southeast, let alone being compared with Staal.

by James Dator on Aug 7, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

and Staals ceiling is lower.

by Killswitch on Aug 6, 2009 8:47 PM EDT reply actions  

But I will disagree with this...

How exactly does Staal have a lower ceiling?

If anything I could argue the opposite way, Lecavalier has had the opportunity of playing with St. Louis… Staal has yet to have a legitimate, consistent threat on his line.

by James Dator on Aug 7, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah … that’s a curious statement. Vinnie will be 30 this season … so he’s in his prime but I don’t think he’ll ever top 2006-07 (52-56-108). Eric won’t be 25 until Oct. 29, so I’d argue he has five-ish years to prove his ceiling is higher.

by Cory Lavalette on Aug 7, 2009 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

so point totals dictate the ceiling? Top 10 players can be interpreted different ways I guess but looking at players as a single entity, Lecavalier has more one on one skill than Staal, more playmaking ability with multiple dimensions to his game. He doesnt need to rely on a far-side wrister from the top of the circle or a wrap around as his only scoring weapons. Im assuming people have seen Lecavalier play on more than one occasion, then again its hard to tell by some of the comments.

by Killswitch on Aug 7, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think we’re debating that LeCavalier is talented, but whether this is so clearcut about who is the better (more reliable and capable) as of August 2009. Last game, I saw between the two was 5 months ago: March 9 2009 in TB (here’s a video link). Staal had a remarkable 4 goals and 6 pts. Vinny got a goal and an assist – leading his team. At least that night, in Vinny’s house, the one-on-one skills seem to come down on Staal’s side.

Can you find a reverse result this season?

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 7, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot how bad TB’s D was until watching those highlights. I didnt see much skill in any of those goals besides maybe some hand eye coordination on the fourth.

by Killswitch on Aug 7, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I give up.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 7, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m talking pure skill. I dont think Staal, in his prime, will be a better skilled hockey player than Lecavalier was/is in his prime.

by Killswitch on Aug 7, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Personally, I think Staal has more raw skill than Lacavalier does and could have a higher ceiling. He’s faster. He’s got better hands. If you saw him when he won the MVP at the ASG, in the skill competition for the shot accuracy? He put on a show.

I don’t know if something is holding Staal back, or what, but he does have the skills and does show them at times. It’s just that he hasn’t shown them consistently, and that is what he needs to continue to develop is using what he has every time he steps out on the ice. If he lives up to his potential the comparisons won’t be Staal to Lacavalier, but the opposite of how Lacavalier was kind of like Staal.

Will he live up to that? Now that’s something we might agree on, is I don’t know that he will. Which will be very disappointing to see that potential go unused, if not.

by Pirate Caniac on Aug 7, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

While I’ve heard some say here that we are forgiving Lecavalier poor showing the last 2 years because of injury and team management chaos, I think some of the issues of management (and correlating “forgiveness”) should apply to Staal the last 12 months as well. The transition (beginning in April 08 when we missed the PO’s and Lavi couldn’t do the exit interviews) from Lavi to Paul Maurice were of huge impact to Staal who had just signed the big career contract last August and was apparently carrying the entire load of the team’s success, perhaps more than a 23-24 yr old could be asked to. JR has mentioned how important it is to Staal to have Francis on the bench and in the game to mentor him more.

It was the return of Cole that really got the mojo back – I don’t think Staal is as cocky and narcissistic as many superstars and his self-doubt is an issue. His leadership in the playoffs (until faced with pesky little brother with the bird on his jersey – something tells me it will be different next time) was all you could ask, as he figured out how to deal with Parise from NJD and the Boston beasts. A lot of growth there, and more to come.

Staal has also fought injury this past season – remember when he played only a few minutes in San Jose (january?) after looking off for weeks – and we still beat the Sharks, with Roddy in Raleigh and Leighton in goal. There’s stuff there that may not be completely disclosed but is relevant to the discussion on consistency, and wouldn’t be obvious to those outside the Raleigh market.

Part of this is about skill, and also drive, ability to adjust in all situations, and ability to come through in a “clutch” and in the most high-pressure situations. I think all of those need to be factored as we debate this kind of list.

The last couple years, Staal’s numbers far surpass Vinny’s. If we’re putting a team together to play Sept 15, I can’t see how you can say it’s cut and dry of who is better. If we’re going for a list all-time greats who are still active tho maybe past their prime, then this gets a lot more complicated.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 7, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

better hands? not a chance.

by Killswitch on Aug 7, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you see Staal at the ASG skills competition? Like I said, I haven’t seen it translate well during his actual play, but Staal has much better hand skill than you’d ever think watching him play day in and out as a Cane. If he starts doing that during games, Vinny would have no chance being compared to Staal. So far I haven’t seen it consistently, though, just every once in awhile that gets written off as “luck”.

by Pirate Caniac on Aug 7, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll play devil's advocate for a second...

95% of the league have outstanding skills that vastly outshine their ability to use said skills in a game. You can see this on both ends of the ice during warmup.

There are no NHL 1st or 2nd line forwards who don’t have amazing puck handling skills, but it is that 5% who can show this skill during a game that puts them apart from the rest.

In my opinion Lecavalier is a better puck handler and skater, Lecavalier is more dominant in fastbreaks, however, Staal uses his body far better on the forecheck/creating space and is a better pure shooter.

Apples to oranges really. On a side note, I would definitely not say Lecavalier is done or past his prime. Lets look at this objectively and see that even when injured last season he still had 67 points in 77 games. He may never return to 100+ pt form, but I find it a little silly to be talking about him like he’s done when he had 10 more points than Staal in 07-08 and only 8 less in his injured 08-09 campaign.

by James Dator on Aug 8, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Staal vs LeCavalier

I completly disagree with the statement that Vinny is a better skater than Staal. Staal’s stride is mis-leading, it is so long that it tends to make people think he is trying hard. Same goes for Jordan. You don’t realize how fast he is going until he blows by someone.Buccigross ,at the mothership, has described Eric’s skating as more of a gallop than a stride. He is not super fast, but both Jordan and he get to top speed in just a few strides. I love Vinny’s game, and think that his and Staal’s game are very comparable. Similar size, skill, drive, ceiling.

About this injury talk, Staal injured his shoulder last year early and it continued to bother him off and on throughout the season and playoffs. Staal has had minor injuries that weren’t disclosed each of the past 3 years. In ’07 he struggled much of the season with a hand injury, and in ’08 was plagued by a “lower body concern”. All that being said, HE DID NOT MISS A SINGLE GAME!

My last point is this: Staal has yet to play with an elite player in the prime of their career. It can be argued that Vinny has played with two elite players in their prime, and one on his line. St. Louis and Danny Boyle. Further, Staal faces more pressure to carry his team, especially the last two seasons, than any other player in the league save Rick Nash. You could maybe make an argument for Iginla to be included in this discussion. They face the best D-pairings and best checking forwards every single shift. Remember when Sammi was bumped down to the third line when Cole arrived? His production went up dramatically. Hopefully, Rutuu can continue to develop into an elite compliment to Staal.

by SouthernHockeyFan on Aug 8, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Im not a Homer

But Vinny was never as good as Staal and probably has missed his window on ever being as good. Give it up Killswitch. I would give it to Staal just b/c of durability. BTW, why are we talking about TB? Are they even still relevant?

Satan is just a coping mechanism for monotheists.

by wilmnoca on Aug 8, 2009 11:40 AM EDT reply actions  

The odd thing is, killswitch is only a Canes Country member….I got to thinking s/he was just trying to make fun of the futility of this debate even and doesn’t really care about Lecavalier.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 8, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

i noticed that

I just don’t see Vinny being considered better than Staal by anyone other than a homer from TB. He’s alright, but damn. Either way opinions are just that. It’s what makes the world such a great place to live……..I guess?

Satan is just a coping mechanism for monotheists.

by wilmnoca on Aug 8, 2009 2:11 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah, or now we're even better informed...?

If nothing else we all researched and analyzed lots of ideas to understand how the Canes’ highest-paid player for the next several years (and likely captain) is both strong and weak. As Cory pointed out, he’s still only 24.

Backstrom is so young and surrounded by greatness; Vinny is a veteran surrounded by a great mess.

How great to have the Canes Country forum to work out the opinions from many points of view.

Even better, I feel like we will be all the better informed on where we need to see consistency and improvement from #12 to back up our assertions that he is a top-3 player in the Division.

Sigh – 55 d 3 hr 12 min.

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 8, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Staal is better for the Canes... that is all that matters.

Even though I may think Lecavalier is the better player, Staal fits in with our system perfectly and what we’re trying to do. So, if the situation arose I would never trade Staal for Vinny because of team fit.

by James Dator on Aug 8, 2009 4:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Well said, sir!
When comparing players of such similar statures and skill sets, it really just becomes a popularity contest anyhow.

by InfectedFerret on Aug 8, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point.

But, ummmm, errrr, ………….. Infected Ferret?
I have to ask: exactly how did you choose that?

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 8, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not really sure. It just kind of felt right. We used to have two ferrets and you could say they infected our household. I do not recommend.

by InfectedFerret on Aug 9, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Almost sounds related to River Rats….

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 9, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

BOOOO FARRETS!!!!

Satan is just a coping mechanism for monotheists.

by wilmnoca on Aug 9, 2009 3:53 PM EDT reply actions  

The hiding of my socks was what really put me over the edge. Luckily, there was a nice gentleman at the pet store where we bought them had an absolute menagerie at his house, so he took them off of our hands and they fit in seamlessly with all of his other critters. Sorry for the tangent.

by InfectedFerret on Aug 9, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe he’d take the Babchuk fish as well?

Satan is just a coping mechanism for monotheists.

by wilmnoca on Aug 9, 2009 5:49 PM EDT reply actions  

I’d prefer he take the actual Babchuk. ;-)

by InfectedFerret on Aug 9, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

too funny! (i’m imagining Anton standing quietly with a leash and sheepish and confused , while you explain to the petstore exactly what the problem is).

Let's go Canes!
Hakkaa Paalle!

by Carolyn Christians on Aug 9, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kovalchuck

I noticed that you said Staal was the most leaned on player on his team. I think this badge should be Kovalchuck’s. ATL keeps dumping its other elite players (Heatly, Hossa) Leaving Kovy to Man the cannons. After Kovy, the next point producer is Kozlov who, while perpetually underrated, is nothing near the talent Kovalchuck is.
St.Louis may have the stats, but I’d rather have Tuomo than him on my team.
Gleason should be #1.5

That aside, thanks for fixing that “Top 10 Players in the SE Conference that are also on the Washington Cr*ptials” list.

by Caniac1026 on Aug 17, 2009 3:08 PM EDT reply actions  

I understand why you might think Kovalchuk is leaned upon more than Staal. The only difference IMO is that Staal is expected to play a complete game while Ilya is “just” expected to produce points. I really do like Ruutu also, but based on 1 good year I just couldn’t put him on the list.

by PackPride17 on Aug 17, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

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