Rat Stats: Does Younger = Better?
by hockeymomof2 on Jan 16, 2010 7:00 AM EST
37 comments
At the very beginning of the 2009-10 season, it was observed that our Carolina Hurricanes were the oldest team in the NHL. The average age of 30.24 years at the time was 6 months older than the next oldest group of veterans, the Detroit Red Wings, at 29.72 years old on average; and over 2 1/2 years older than the league average of 27.6 years.
The decision yesterday to recall Albany River Rat Drayson Bowman to take the ice for his first NHL game tonight here in Raleigh vs the Atlanta Thrashers got me wondering how far that average age has dropped if one looked at tonight's line up.
Further, as we watch the braintrust at Edwards Mill Road set into motion the revolving door between the Albany and Raleigh locker rooms once again (announced by tweets gone wild at 11am Friday) , I also thought it might be a good moment to look at the Rats' stats in isolation.
And finally, I ran some numbers to see exactly what's happened with the team's record overall since this youth movement got underway.
NB, readers, take this in context of all that's been analyzed and written the last few months. The numbers don't tell the whole story of what this Rat Pack means to the team, for better and for worse, especially when you talk about the singular elation of rookies finally living their NHL dream, and the frustration of veterans struggling to return to their best form, and perhaps even realizing that they never will. But the statistics are one piece of the puzzle, and I was curious. So, let's take a look.....after the jump.
Brind`Amour and Bowman at the Reczone during Camp Brind'Amour, August 2009, via LTD
We all know the oldest player on the bench, Captain Rod Brind`Amour turned 39 last August. Our youngest Cane? Yep, Zach Boychuk, born October 4, 1989, which is six months after Brind`Amour's NHL debut in the 1989 playoffs with the St Louis Blues (coached by Brian Sutter), on April 11,1989, when our familiar veteran captain notched his first NHL goal on his first shot, though still only an 18 year old kid himself at the time. (You think he doesn't get how excited these kids are?) Here's the birth order of the rest of the current crew of call-ups:
| DOB | Age (yrs) | |
| ZACH BOYCHUK | 10/4/1989 | 20.24 |
| DRAYSON BOWMAN | 3/8/1989 | 20.84 |
| BRANDON SUTTER | 2/14/1989 | 20.93 |
| JIRI TLUSTY | 3/16/1988 | 21.84 |
| BRETT CARSON | 11/29/1985 | 24.12 |
| PATRICK DWYER | 6/22/1983 | 26.58 |
* * *
from left, Tlusty, Assistant Coach Tom Rowe, Carson, Boychuk,Samson and Sutter at practice Jan 8, 2010 (via LTD)
Next, if we're looking for one statistic that indicates the growing confidence Coach Paul Maurice and his associates have in a player, it would be Time on Ice. Here are those TOI numbers (as average minutes/game) plus the usual scoring and penalty counts.
| #games | AvgTOI | "+/-" | G | A | Pts | PIM | |
| BRETT CARSON | 18 | 17:11 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 4 |
| BRANDON SUTTER | 37 | 16:36 | -3 | 11 | 8 | 19 | 2 |
| PATRICK DWYER | 22 | 13:14 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 5 | 0 |
| JIRI TLUSTY | 8 | 11:59 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 5 | 2 |
| ZACH BOYCHUK | 8 | 11:02 | -2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
| DRAYSON BOWMAN | 0 |
Those really aren't too bad, and do not support any suggestion that these guys are only getting bottom "we need a warm body" minutes. From what I've seen this season, the skaters with only 8 games on their gamelog (Boychuk and Tlusty) will see their minutes increase with a few more games of experience, just as we've seen with Sutter and Dwyer. Compare these to forwards Tuomo Ruutu who averages 16:37 (on the season) or Scott Walker at 9:44. Among blueliners, defensemen Niclas Wallin averages 17:48 and Andrew Alberts has 15:28. (All these from NHL.com.)
Though he's back in Albany now, Bryan Rodney (age 25) averaged 16:21 in his 10 games thus far. For his first 5 games with the big boys, Jerome Samson (age 22) ended up with an average of about 7:24.
And I know you're wondering: since the beginning of December, Brind`Amour has averaged all of 8:51 per game.
And don't forget to look at the scoring, the +/- and the PIM of this round of Rats. Not bad, eh? No wonder the Caniac Nation is smiling, even as we linger in 30th place.
* * *
We know this rotation from AHL-to-NHL-to-AHL is a super way to provide the full-bore NHL learning experience to the players we expect will occupy many spots in the Carolina Hurricanes locker room next season. But I wondered: what about now? And really: What about us, the Caniac faithful? What have the kids brought to the team and its faithful followers these last few weeks? So I compiled those numbers too.
The night #16 played hockey while #17 sat upstairs in the Igloo (via a.espncdn.com)
I chose to take the December 7th game in Pittsburgh as the "before and after" cut-off. Why? Because that was the day Rod Brind`Amour was a healthy scratch, which according to his conversation with Chuck Kaiton earlier this week, was a first in his 20-year career. If you'll pardon the expression, that benching was indeed a watershed moment for the Hurricanes franchise and spoke volumes about the mindset of the front office after months of speculation as this season unraveled. Brett Carson played that night, and Jiri Tlusty played his first game at the Verizon Center vs the Capitals 3 days later. And the revolving door was officially put into operation the rest of December through today..
So, other than that single game in which Brind`Amour didn't play, what else has happened in the Hurricanes organization since December 7, 2009?
- Eric Staal returned from his (rib?) injury, was moved from center to wing, and subsequently started racking up the points. How many? Try 8 - 11 - 19 in the 16 games he's played over the period. (Equivalent to a 97 point season in points/game) Going only 2-9-11 in his first 18 games, Staal has given us a pretty dramatic surge.
- Cam Ward came back after the Cut in Columbus, and has comfortably returned to the top form we have come to expect, including a GAA under 2.00 and Save % at 93.8% over the last 6 outings. (wowsers!)
- Tuomo Ruutu thrilled us with his first hat trick on December 16th vs the Stars. (Erik Cole got his 6th hattie the first for the Canes this season, on December 5th.)
- But on the flip side of these headliners delighting us with their skill and pizazz, we watch and wait, while Joe Corvo, leading the team in TOI prior to his achilles injury November 30, remains on the LTIR. Then Tim Gleason took a few days off following the incident of blocking an Alex Ovechkin shot with his face. Then it was Erik Cole, Chad LaRose, Scott Walker, Sergei Samsonov, Tuomo Ruutu, taking off extended time to get healthy. To add insult to injury, we are given only vague promises and ever-changing predictions of when we will see these fan favorites suit up again.
- And, it's safe to say, since December 7, we've developed both respect and affection for this passel of kids we call the Rats. Welcome to Raleigh, boys.
With that listing of events in mind, here are your standard team statistics over these last 18 games, beginning with that December 7th win over the Penguins in Pittsburgh, as compared to the first 28 games of Caniac Misery.
| Team Statistic | The first 28 games | The18 games since Dec 7th | improved? |
| Goals/Game | 2.25 | 2.72 | 20.9% |
| Goals Against /Game | 3.57 | 2.94 | 17.6% |
| Goal diff/game | -1.32 | -0.22 | |
| W-L-OTL | 7-17-4 | 7-8-3 | |
| % points | 32% | 47% | 46.9% |
| PP % | 13.50% | 19.70% | 45.9% |
| PIM/game | 15.21 | 10.83 | 28.8% |
| PK % | 79.50% | 76.40% | -3.9% |
| SHG Allowed /Game | 0.93 | 0.94 | -1.1% |
So, take a minute and look at the numbers. Has there been any improvement? I'll say. Given how bad those numbers were the first 2 months of the season, improvement was inevitable. When the mindset (if not the public statements) of the organization shifted to fully embrace the idea of transition and re-build, the improvement in the standard statistics measuring performance is unquestionable, remarkable, even stupendous. Other than a minor drop-off in Penalty Kill percentage, which is mitigated by the major drop off in penalty minutes, this is simply a stronger better hockey team since the Rats started to be a regular part of the mix. And, I'm glad to say, the positive effect has even shown itself to be contagious.
Brind`Amour is congratulated for his goal against the Senators last Sunday by Tlusty, Wallin, Dwyer, and Gleason via a.espncdn.com
Here are my questions:
Looking at these numbers, do you think this is all about the influx of youth? Does younger = better?
Or is that equation just a good "hockeymom storyline" and the plain reality is that we now have those "franchise players" of Staal and Ward at 100%, performing at the top of their game and as required? After all, we knew in October that their less-than-marvelous play needed to improve before the team could turn the season around. And similarly, do you believe that with their proven talent and drive, Staal's and Ward's return to excellence is independent of this radical change in personnel?
We've lost a lot of key veterans to injury in the last 18 games. Are the kids called up from the American League actually more talented or just hungrier? Faster, stronger, healthier? Smarter? More confident?
Is it just the stamina and quickness of youth on the ice? Or is it a sign of a shift in the emotional soundtrack (and dare I say "leadership") in the room? After all, the young ones are living in the moment, hungry to stay, and so bring that spark of excitement to which Coach Maurice has referred this week, that is part-and-parcel of a boy's first games in the NHL.
Anything else you see from these basic stats that strikes you as worthy of note or maybe caught you by surprise? Any particular player's numbers impress you? (hint: look at Sutter's PIM, or Dwyer's steadiness - across the board)
And what do you think will happen to the roster, and subsequently, these statistics as the six established vets, now injured and healing, return to the bench over the upcoming weeks?
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Hon, you are obviously neglecting the fish. Wow! Great piece. Stats on the 6 oldest would be a nice comparing counter weight. That said, that was a great article, HM. Thanks.
December 7th the day that will live in infamy, the day the rebuild began.
Sutter, Dwyer and I’m starting to believe Carson are here to stay, Carson may go back down when Corvo returns, but will be back up as soon as a spot is open. Dwyer, like Sutter may just be here and force a scratch if needed. I think production outweighs a fair bit of salary. I’m thinking pieces will start moving after the Olympics, ’course thought some would of been moved already, too.
BTW, revolving locker room doors sounds like something tripp would say, eww.
A
The Canes are like a box of expired chocolates......
Trying to Figure Out Lines
Paladin6 in this post and in some a few back discussed an issue that I have been obsessing over from the start of the season — what will the lines look like from this point of the season and next season. Ironically, the Hurricanes have the most talent they have ever possessed and particularly at the forward position. We will see Bowman tonight and I predict everybody will be very impressed. Zac Dalpe has not yet signed professionally, but I believe he will have the college hockey season. Dalpe could potentially be as good a forward as any forward on the team, including Staal. The only reason he was available at that point in the draft is he was 5’9" or so; but he grew about 4" between draft day and his first day of college hockey. In short, he was a late grower.
It is for that reason, I believe the veterans such as LaRose and Samsonov will be included either this year or next year as part of a trade. My prediction is that Rutherford will retain the talented youth at all costs — even if it means trading some popular players. I feel confident Whitney will be re-signed (whether or not he is traded as a rental). As I see it, LaRose, Samsonov, Yelle, Walker, and Brind’Amour will not be skating for the Hurricanes by next season; or at worst, Yelle, Walker, Brind’Amour are gone at the end of this season; and LaRose and Samsonov are gone at the end of 2010-2011.
The opening of five forward positions is critical for talented players in Albany and in the draft to get their chance in Carolina. I also think there is a logic to stock-piling talent in one position such as forwards and then working on doing the same thing for defense.
Rosie? The jury is still out with him.
I’m not convinced Rosie is on the out list just yet. You have to remember his injury this season is one they said most hockey players could not have played with. That being said since he has been injuried from the start of this season his stats show it. If Rosie can get back to 100% and does not show production immediately then I think they may look to move him.
Staal will be the next CAPTAIN........get over it!
Two things stand out for me
The production of our franchise cornerstones. Staal and Ward are performing up to their pay scale in this stretch.
The speed of the call-ups. The Canes have gotten a year and a half younger and gotten faster. While the Rats may not be as polished as some of the guys that are out, their speed and enthusiasm outweigh experience.
Great article, HM!! Thanks for the hockey fix with my coffee this morning :)
Talented, Fast, Strong, Determined Youth who are Coachable = Better Team
Great article. The statistics are even more telling when one engages in a broad regression analysis of the statistics. The younger players received far fewer minutes than the veterans; yet they comprised statistically, a larger portion of goals, assists, take-aways, third passes from goals (the pass that starts off the score), and hustling plays. If one weighs their contributions versus time on ice, the results are even more telling.
As part of the regression analysis, one includes the improvement of veterans on lines where they played with younger players. A sudden improvement in the productivity of a veteran who suddenly is playing with faster, stronger, more motivated, and more coachable players is further evidence of the effectiveness of the youth movement.
Respectfully, I think people who have played competitive sports could provide numerous examples where playing with more talented players improved their game in the process. Coaches say a team is only as good as its weakest player; and there is truth to that statement. Sutter and the Albany Rats brought speed, talent, determination and coachability to the team. In addition to their talent, they fully endorsed Maurice’s/Francis’/Rowe’s system and took advantage of the positive aspects of that system. For some of the veterans they appeared even slower than their physical ability because they were lingering as they went point to point.
Sutter and the Albany Rats were not only fast, they were committed to paying the price of hitting to separate pucks, fore-checking and back-checking, and filling passing/shooting lanes. For me, it has been a pleasure to watch; and it has also made the contrast quite stark between players who have those attributes of speed, physicality, desire, and hockey sense and those veterans going through the motions and taking breaks on shifts.
Way to sum it up....good job Mommy....youth is more important than experience.
My take is the team was clearly old going into this season. Their bodies were just not able to keep up with the other teams in the league. Normally, I would expect that team to steadily improve throughout the season and peak in the playoffs…..saw it last year. The problem was the injuries. Key injuries that interupted the play and eventually the psyche of the team and management. If that wasn’t enough, your Captain was showing his age more than any other player in the league. We have all speculated that his knee would go one way or the other this season. It went the wrong way. The league is so tight talent wise, one turn over, one mistake, one missed assignment and yes one blown call can determine the outcome. This season shows how close every team is to 30th place. Add a little veteran “you can’t teach me anything I don’t know” to a bit of “I am going to coach my way …no matter what my personnel is” You have a pretty bad team.
The Light has come in the package of youth. Bottom line, youth in this league is better than veterans. Your statistics prove this. I would expect every category that requires speed would have improved….it did. I would expect the veterans may be better at the disiplined area of penalty kill, they were. The reality, better offense, better defense, better power play. Better team.
The old days of the same team coming in year after year and dominating is over. There is a balance to be struck. Veteran presence, combined with youthful exuberence, and one hell of a goalie…..playoffs.
One random comment....
In last Sunday’s game, Aaron Ward got popped …. hit really hard. It was like his adrenaline kicked in and played a much better game. My question, why? My answer…..he has been playing comfortable. He is not playing each shift like it may be his last. Perhaps he should …… it may be….go Rats.
I’m not sold that it is YOUNGER that equals better as much as it is those who are complacent Vs. those who are not.
A guy who has been in the league for 11….15….20 years may feel like he KNOWS that he is going to have a job on the team… where as a kid in his first season KNOWS that he has to scratch, claw, and fight for the chance to be on the team….
So you see these kids come up and actually give a crap about how they play and about the team… because nobody wants to pull a Michael Ryan and spend eternity in the A.
by Mateos_Canes_Lamp on Jan 16, 2010 9:37 AM EST reply actions
If you’ll pardon the expression, that benching was indeed a watershed moment for the Hurricanes franchise and spoke volumes about the mindset of the front office after months of speculation as this season unraveled.
“pardon the expression”…Please girlfriend, you know what you’re doing there. :0) I like it!
Seriously, excellent article. The stats comparison helps put it into perspective.
;)
Gleason for the "C" :
Just what do we need to do to make this happen?
by hockeymomof2 on Jan 16, 2010 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
Interesting Article on Karmanos and Next Season at N&O
Chip Alexander has an interesting article about next season and includes an interview with Peter Karmanos. Here’s the link:
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/287029.html
Here is a quote from some of it:
“We’re going to be able to put a very exciting team on the ice,” Karmanos said. "I hope we can build around five or six key players that we have that we think are world-class players, and we have some really exciting young players coming along.
“We think we can come back next year, assuming we have used up all of our injuries this season, and we can put an extremely competitive team on the ice that will have a chance of winning it all.”
Karmanos said the NHL salary cap “should come down” from the $56.8 million ceiling this season but added that the cap won’t be an issue for the Canes.
“We can run a team well under the cap and have it be a team we think can contend,” he said. “We knew this year we didn’t have any choice, so we added players here or there because we thought we were going to make a run for it this year.”
@@@@@@@@
The six key players seem to include: (1) Staal, (2) Sam Ward; (3) Ruutu; (4) Sutter; (5) Pitkanen; (6) Gleason. All six are young players with significant ability. I assume, moreover, that Jokinen and Kostopoulos are also part of the core team; and it may be that Karmanos didn’t include Sutter as part of the veteran crew. It is also interesting to read the remarks about Brind’Amour and from Brind’Amour. A lot of veterans are going to be packing their bags between now and the start of next season. The mystery to me is why those veterans couldn’t shake themselves awake and shed their complacent approach to Hurricanes hockey.
Glad you all enjoyed the number crunching – appreciate the kind words. I’m off for 2 games with my really young kids in Cary and Wake Forest today, returning even a little late to join you live for the thread for Atlanta. Then another squirt game in the morning. Bliss.
Gleason for the "C" :
Just what do we need to do to make this happen?
FWIW
I will be interested to see how the influx of Rats affects the play of LaRose, Samsonov, etc. Those guys are in danger of (if they havent already) losing their jobs here and being somewhere they may not want to be. So maybe they come back with a fire lit under them and we see the 59 from last year. The one most of us wanted back in a bad way, not the one we have now. Hopefully enough to drive up trade value or become too important to let go. To me, Walker does not fit into this catagory. He never takes a second off, nevermind a whole shift. He is just a victim of age, and we know how long that list is. BUT, if none of this works out and they comeback the same players, let the fire sale begin soon. At least then we can have something to be excited about 1)Rats here 2) draft picks 3) a HIGH draft pick.
Busy schedule intervened this morning and I didn’t get a chance to head over to the RecZone for the pregame skate, so many, many thanks to HM for giving me a hockey fix this morning. Excellent article and discussion.
This is a point I want to hone in on:
Eric Staal returned from his (rib?) injury, was moved from center to wing, and subsequently started racking up the points. How many? Try 8 – 11 – 19 in the 16 games he’s played over the period. (Equivalent to a 97 point season in points/game) Going only 2-9-11 in his first 18 games, Staal has given us a pretty dramatic surge.
Now I’m one to freely admit that I’m a BIG fan of “the big guy” so I’m DELIGHTED to see his resurgence held up via the stats. IHeartMASN (thanks BTW) posted yesterday’s interview with the Wizard on NHL Live. I guess Ray doesn’t share the NHL’s need for secrecy when it comes to injury reporting because he was pretty specific describing Staal’s injuries – a groin injury suffered at Canada’s camp (notice Ray’s comments about how he was playing on one leg) and then a torn oblique which forced him out of the lineup but fortunately allowed him the opportunity to heal both injuries. Then of course you throw in the burden of a family tragedy on top of your first career injury(ies) and that’s a huge burden to heap on the shoulders of the young face of your franchise.
Couldn’t be happier that he’s back on track.
Sees the world through ruuu-colored glasses...
Sisu
Oh BTW, from this morning’s skate, the lines for tonight have been updated on ch.com.
Sees the world through ruuu-colored glasses...
Sisu
I’m with Mateo-I don’t think younger necessarily equals better. There is something to be said for experience when it comes to on-ice performance. But I do think younger equals hungrier and that can translate into more hustle and willingness to (oh dear here comes the second Tripp quote of the day) do the dirty things in the game. These guys come up and are beyond excited to be getting this chance. They are going to do everything that’s asked of them so that they can stay at this level. I think that’s what translates into better stats.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
The tripp quote cost you all credibility. Not really, but eww.
If you and/or Mat or anybody had to describe the ideal hockey player, which adjectives woiuld you use?
I’m thinking hunger, drive, skill and youthful stamina are well above exper. I don’t give a hoot in hell for the “Benn there, done that” pro athlete. Exper. can be a double edged sword. The game today is not the same game Rod spent most of his career playing. As the game evolves the exper. factor shifts to the youth. while not totally valid, Boychuck has playued todays game since he was sixteen, all of his pro hockey. REod on the other hand has had to adapt to the new game from his mid 30’s. That point illustrates a point about learning new tricks with old legs and exper. or being brought up with it.
I don’t think “youth” is the governing factor either. Young Pro’s on the other hand vs. Old Pro’s and I’m gonna go with the young guys.Not a guy on the team 28 or under (‘cept Rosie) I’d trade for ANY of the guys over 34 and that includes some of my favorite guys.
A
The Canes are like a box of expired chocolates......
I disagree with you on the importance of experience. So much of this game needs to be done without thinking. The only way you get to that point is through experience. That’s not to say that experience ALONE can make up for the lack of skill, hunger, drive, etc. But it does make all of those things work together to create a better product. It’s fine balance that needs to be struck. I think the Gleason, Cam, Staal, Ruutu (and you may be able to argue Sutter and Whitney are in there as well although they would be on the fringes) group is the one with that balance right now. The Rats and vets have a balance that is shifted in the direction of hunger and experience respectively.
So no, I wouldn’t necessarily place hunger, drive, etc. over experience when it comes to describing the ideal hockey player. Because you can, in fact, have all of those in the same person.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
Why don’t you step up and answer the question, then?
Journeyman exper. is indeed valuable. You’re kinda proving my point by not mentioning one 10yr vet.
A
The Canes are like a box of expired chocolates......
I have no idea what you’re talking about Paladin. Step up and answer the question? I didn’t know you had asked me a question I hadn’t answered.
Was it what qualities would I use to describe an ideal hockey player? All of the ones you listed plus experience in a balanced way with all of them working together (and none being placed above another) is what I’d want in my ideal hockey player (which I do believe I said in my original response). And I mentioned Whitney (so there is your 10 year vet) as being possibly the closest older guy to having that balance.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
The one with the question mark after it. Ha! Sorry couldn’t resist.
I believe you seperated Wit’s and Sutter. You may be missing my point, lemme try another angle. Who are the true super stars of the game? Not big names. There has been a huge shift since the lock out led by Crosby. I would say he and AO are the top two so called Super Stars. Then you get names like Toews, Kane, Kopitar, Stamkos. The youth have exploded into the NHL.Then the journey men heavy hitters Hossa, Datsyuk, Zetterbueg, The Sedins, et al. The game has fundamentaly shifted, that’s been my whole point since the summer. A 15 yr career only means your probably a step slower than you were qwhen you were at your peak. Exper. no longer is able to counter a skilled fast guy. Pretty much period.
You’ll notice I left Staals name out. He’s not a rookie, but at 25, in my book he isn’t some grisled Vet either. So ask yourself (anybody reading this actually) Where does the journey man leave off and the Vet begin? I think around 6 or so seasons as a forward 7-8 as a Dman and 8 for a goalie. Staalsy just is creeping into the Vet status. What Vet you want on your team? The 26 yr old Vet Staal or the 36 yr old?
All that for this: the 26 yr old is gonna eat the 36 yr old almost every time without exception in todays game. Extend that to 38 and it’s a fact. The ten yrs of so called exper. have been nullified by aged legs and ability. The Canes are living proof of this, it’s why I’ve been bitching since June. To me it’s obvious and a fundamental shift in todays NHL.
Youth, use it and win. Lose it and lose.
It was particularly glaring on a skill sparse team like the Canes. Our bread and butter was the speedy transition and attacking with numbers and speed. The instant we gave that up for exper. our season was over. Look at Detroit. A far more skilled team, but again they rely on a puck possession speedy game. Their old guys still have half a step and they are foundering around at the edge of a PO spot(buma lost again to Dallas in the SO today). That’s the 2 oldest teams in the league. Compare to Chicago or whomever else. It seems like that’s the trend. The so called “tricks” of the game don’t work anymore. The journeymen of today are learning new ones and surpassing the old guys. The age of retirement when we look back in say 10 yrs, I think will show a serious decrease around this time period.
Simple evolution of the game in my eyes. Right wrong or whatever.
Ain’t a thesis, just my observation with some facts and ideas.
A
The Canes are like a box of expired chocolates......
I didn’t miss your point Paladin. I understand it and it’s a valid one, the game has changed and the guys brought up with those changes may have advantages over those that were forced to adapt mid-career. I never argued that point at all.
Actually, I think you may have missed my point. You asked me what qualities I would want in my ideal hockey player and I answered that I wanted a mix of a bunch of different qualities, including experience. You assumed that I was talking about the 35+ age group when I spoke about experience. But being “experienced” does not mean you’re over 35. Staal has experience. Ward has experience. A lot of the Rats don’t yet have that experience which is why I said youth doesn’t necessarily equal “better” (which I believe was the whole point of HM’s article in the first place ).
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
I did misunderstand yours. I agree there isn’t a correlation of being younger and better. That said, my point earlier of “Young Pros and Old Pros” comes into play here. The AHL while not the NHL is still pro exper. Juniors is gladiator school. What allows me to agree with the Young Pros being better is an accelerated training regime. Hell take Staal again as an example (who ain’t old by any stretch!) but his pond hockey youth exper. pales to what thousands of kids are getting from that very same age in organized youth hockey. HM and I have kids in the same league and it’s glaring obvious that some of the kids are head, shoulders and helmets above the other kids. These kids then get moved around and pigeon holed in leagues with comapative skill levels. By the time they reach the AHL level nowadays they are light years ahead of where the guys were just a few years ago. This sport is exploding from the grass roots level on up. The NHL is in a bubble right now. What used to take until a guy was 22, we are seeing coming into the league at 18. The youth of the last 5-10 yrs is superior by age to any generation before. Just look around the league at the players that have been playing for 10 yrs or less. What’s happening is that window of peak performance is getting extended. It’s not getting longer, you can’t beat age. It’s the ability to get skilled youth on the ice and up to speed. That’s the youth-being better part, we have expanded the range of viable players that are younger due to an increase in the supporting infrastucture.
Look at the Raleigh area. Had a pro hockey team about 10 yrs and there like 7 sheets of ice in the area for the kids to play on.
So it’s not that the simple fact of age is the dictating factor. The system itself has improved and is turning out viable NHL players that are younger and therefore have extended “Peak performance years”. That would tend to lend itself to youth is better as the youngsters have expanded ranks.
Hell whatever. It ain’t like we are even far apart on this. Being young doesn’t indicate a superior player. When you view the pool of available NHL talent, the pool has become younger. The successful teams are loading up on the younger guys and the older Vets are buying condos. This game has gone from play to about 40 to make your money and reputation by 30 and ride a contract into the twilight.
A
The Canes are like a box of expired chocolates......
Considering that we replace the “old guard” with the kids next season – who are we going to have for call-ups? If Whitney, Cullen, Walker, Yelle, Brind’Amour(?), Samsonov(?), LaRose(?), AWard, Corvo, and Wallin are replaced with Boychuk, Tlusty, Bowman, Samson, Dwyer, Rodney, Carson, McBain – who are the 2 or 3 forwards and 1 or 2 defenseman that could be called up? I hope that some of the trades that happen either bring in a NHL player or somewhat developed prospects rather than just draft picks.
by PackPride17 on Jan 16, 2010 12:00 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Indeed the depth of the pool this year will certainly not be enjoyed next year. That said, Dalpe may be in Albany next year and we will get a couple players out of the draft. I expect priority number one is to reverse what we had this year and that is a better team in the minors than we had in the bigs. Meanign our minor team was over stocked with good players and the Canes not so much.
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The Canes are like a box of expired chocolates......
I think the forward position won’t be much of a concern, but the defense is another story. We will probably have a very inexperienced crew in the NHL and AHL. The D is my biggest concern.
by PackPride17 on Jan 16, 2010 12:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think you need both.
Not to try and over-simplify this, but having played sports earlier in my life, having someone who has “been there done that” can stabalize a team when things start to go sideways. I mean, even in college sports we constantly hear about the “veteran” difference with returning players in all sports and what a difference it makes. We need the Ray Whitneys, etc. Who else do the younger players learn from?
Ray Whitney
I expect Ray Whitney to return next season; and in part his role would include mentoring the younger players. Whitney, I think, is a natural coach. He has the personal drive and competitive spirit, has one of the best hockey minds in the game, has a great sense of humor, and is extremely humble but self-confident. Whitney also has a sense of the fun of the game; and that aspect is too often over-looked.
I also foresee that Ray will be back next year. Nothing is certain, but I think its about a 75 percent chance he will return.
While we have a bunch of centers this year, nexy season is a differnt story. Staal, Sutter, Jokinen, and maybe Dwyer and Brind’Amour. If Rod leaves, we really are short natural centers. It is not Dwyers natural position and I think Boychuk is a winger in the N. If we get Seguin, that might help out, but again I’m not sure if he’s ready to contribute immediately. You don’t always want to rush your draft picks. Until lately, it was uncommon to have first year players play immediately. I don’t think this draft’s quality will lead to as much help now.
by PackPride17 on Jan 16, 2010 2:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think you are very much inline with the org’s take on the assets. We do seem center-rich, but drop Cullen, Yelle, and Brind’Amour and that picture changes. Even Jokinen might not be a long-term Cane and/or is a nice utility player to hold for random injury-inspired field promotions.
Whitney as “interim” Captain seems to be making more and more sense. Buys time while another year or two gets on the potential candidates for his successor and time for the org to watch them before they have to decide.
Jokinen
I see Jokinen as a long-term, core member of the Hurricanes team. He is pure money on the shoot-out and that almost guarantees key points during the regular season. He can play all three forward positions and that gives the team tremendous flexibility. He has great hands and is lethal when allowed to get to the sweet spots. He has a tremendous hockey mind, so he is virtually never out of position. I think it would be foolish to trade Jokinen; and I just can’t imagine the Hurricanes doing so.
I agree that when one starts considering lines for next year, the issue immediately arises as to who will be the third line center. Jokinen is excellent as a third line center; and Dwyer does well there. On the other hand, the Hurricanes could use another center, assuming Matt Cullen is not re-signed.
THE WIZARD IN PITTSBURGH?
They were actually having call-ins on the Pens radio (Pittsburgh- 105.9) late last week; they seem to think that the Canes might be sellers at the deadline and willing to get rid of Ray….the fans really want him here….its all talk, but, I hey, ya never know.
by PittsburghCaniac on Jan 17, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Really Cool article Hockeymom!
I agree with Canesfan1; you need both. It is a balance act of youth and experience. On that note, considering how much our team…cough cough…SUCKS this year….I think our future will be brighter if we give the youth a chance and let them gain the important experience that will help them grow within our organization in the future, even if it means losing/flushing more games down the toilet ;)
Come trade deadline time, I hope we become sellers- we are going to need more depth in our minor league teams.
by PittsburghCaniac on Jan 17, 2010 11:19 PM EST reply actions
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