Should The Canes Move Joni Pitkanen?
by Bob Wage on Jan 25, 2010 7:00 AM EST
235 comments
The Carolina Hurricanes, while playing much better of late, are still looking to rebuild. Every player without a contract next year is a strong candidate to be moved before the trade deadline, but we have not talked much about players who are under contract, who also might be moved.
The primary player of interest? According to Pierre LaBrun of ESPN, it's Joni Pitkanen. Apparently, Jim Rutherford's phone is ringing off the hook with inquiries about the defenseman.
The offensive minded blueliner, who has already been selected for Team Finland, can move the puck, create scoring chances, and usually plays a pretty solid defense in his own end. He can be physical at times and he leads the entire NHL in average ice time.
It's hard to imagine how this team would have performed without him this season, but still, all of these factors make him a highly sought after player throughout the league.
The Hurricanes are not actively looking to trade him, but.... if the right deal came along, should they?
The bigwigs in Carolina have admitted that they are officially in "rebuild" mode. If so, then in my opinion they should trade the Finnish superstar, if they got a proper return.
For instance, what if Boston was willing to trade Toronto's first round draft pick for the rights to Pitkanen? You probably would be talking about receiving one of the top picks in this summer's draft and an impact player. Would you make the deal?
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$4.5 million salary next year (with a $4MM cap hit) and a UFA in 11-12. With what Joni means to this team — our best d-man, most minutes, Finnish karma — I can’t imagine what the Canes could get back as equal value. A draft pick, even a top 5, would represent value for the future but would make the team worse for this year and next.
Two things:
A trade for a player of equal value. Maybe another team is short on the back end but has an abundance of forwards. If the Canes could get a 70-pt a year winger, that might be worth it.
Next season. JR has to be thinking about making the playoffs next year. If, after next year’s all-star break, the team is out of the playoffs then Joni becomes a huge trading chip and still might garner a proven NHLer or top 5 pick. His next contract is gonna be pretty large and I’m not confident at all that the Canes can or will be able to afford him.
No, no, no
How is a “rebuild” accomplished by trading your best defenseman who is 26 and under contract for next season? Picks and prospects are no sure things. Pitkanen is. Lest we forget that he himself was a 4th overall pick in the ancient year of 2002. That’s the same draft where C.Ward was selected…should we trade him, too, and pick up a “maybe” to add to our rebuild? I’m sure we could get a huge return for Ward, so why not?
There’s a proper rebuild where things actually get accomplished and then there’s the never-ending Florida Panthers rebuild of developing/acquiring players and then trading them away for the next wave of shiny futures, then repeating that process over and over and over again. Trading Pitkanen is a move towards the latter. He’s 26, not 36. Young core players should be parts of rebuilds.
If he wants a bunch of money, then you pay him unless it is a completely ridiculous demand. I don’t think people really understand what a disaster our defense would be without Pitkanen. We have precisely one other Top 4 defenseman (Gleason) under contract for next season, a #5/6 guy in Alberts, a decent prospect in Carson who will probably top out as a #5 guy and then a bunch of prospects who have proven nothing.
Trading Pitkanen for a “70 point forward” makes no sense. We already have a forward capable of such a feat and more (Staal) and perhaps another one with our 1st rounder this year. What defenseman do we have that brings what Pitkanen does to the ice or even comes close in terms of producing offense or moving the puck? Nobody. “Short on the back end” pretty much describes us. People can point to Gleason’s increased production, but he has 14 points and has tailed off considerably in that department over the past couple of months. Pitkanen has 28 points. He is 20th among all defensemen in scoring despite missing 9 games and 12th in points-per-game (minimum 10 games played). He has been near a point-per-game since the start of December (21 points in 24 games) while playing on a team that is at best mediocre offensively.
I am going to cry if I again hear the names “Rodney” and “McBain” as justification for trading Pitkanen. Rodney is a career AHLer until he proves otherwise, which is not likely. He is a whopping seven months younger than Pitkanen and has 18 career NHL games to his name. McBain has been decent at best in the AHL and I wouldn’t even trust him in a bottom-pairing role at this point. When Pitkanen was these guys ages he was already a top-pairing defenseman in the NHL.
Pitkanen is a core player and should not be traded except in the case of a massive overpayment. The only reason that he and Jokinen were not on the “untouchable” list is because they are both UFAs after next season.
I really don’t think we should. Pitkanen is really our only puck-moving defenseman and Corvo is not in his category. Anything is possible, but a trade would have to be for someone of equal value. And why would a team trade a puck-moving defenseman for another.
No, not really. The only facet of hockey that Corvo is better at Pitkanen at is shooting the puck. That is it and it was the same case last year.
Pitkanen is also more than 6 years younger than Corvo. Corvo was midway through his sophmore NHL season at Pitkanen’s age.
To sum it up:
Pitkanen = top-pairing defenseman, borderline #1
Corvo = #3/4 defenseman
Last time I checked, they were lableing D-men as ‘Top 4, offensive D-men, PP specialists, shut-down guys’. So, Corvo and Pitkanen are both top 4, offensive D-men who can quaterback the PP and log big minutes. I consider that the same category.
Oh, there’s some official labeling of types of defensemen? I was not aware. I see Pitkanen listed as “defenseman” on rosters, not Top 4 Offensive Defenseman.
To say that they are “in the same category” would suggest that Corvo is as good as Pitkanen, which is not the case. Yes, they are both Top 4 defensemen, but you can break that down into smaller categories.
Is Corvo in the same category as Mike Green because they are both top 4, offensive D-men who can quaterback the PP and log big minutes? If you paint players by such broad brushes, then yes. That doesn’t mean they are the same and that we can’t break it down further.
LOL, yeah there is official labeling of D-men and a GM would paint with broad brush strokes when selling him as a top 4 guy who can log big minutes and quarterback the PP.
What are you talking about? There is no such official labeling. And if there is, then certainly it could be broken down into top-pairing defenseman and second-pairing defenseman.
It was said that PItkanen was not in the same category as Corvo. You disagreed and said that they were in the same category since they were both Top 4 defenseman. I said that PItkanen was a top pairing defenseman and Corvo a second-pairing defenseman and you reiterated the same thing.
Either you are trolling or you are drunk. I can’t figure it out. You make no sense.
Oh, heck. Let’s take your absurd statement seriously for a bit.
Let’s say Rutherford was shopping Pitkanen and Corvo around. A GM asked JR to tell him something about the players. Rutherford simply said “they are both Top 4 defenseman who can quarterback the powerplay.” The other GM says “so they have the same value? I could get Pitkanen for the same price as Corvo” and Rutherford said “of course! They are in the same category!”
See how that ridiculous that is?
There is no official labeling of defensemen. Saying they are in the “same category” is like saying Jokinen and Staal are in the “same category”—that category being Top 6 forwards.
When you set the rules of debate, you win. Congratulations. You are a troll.
“There won’t be many top-four defensemen moving before March 3, so the high interest in Pitkanen is reflective of a barren marketplace for that position.” -Pierre Lebrun aka Drunk Troll
Okay, he’s correctly indicating Pitkanen as a Top 4 defenseman. That doesn’t mean that if he also called Corvo a Top 4 defenseman that he’d mean they were of the same caliber of player. It’s an extremely broad grouping.
Jokinen is a Top 6 forward. Staal Is a Top 6 forward. Are they in the same category under that definition? Yes, they are. But under the category of “first liner”, only Staal fits.
You clearly knew what was meant when they said that Pitkanen was not in the same “category”—they meant that he was better and that Corvo did not fall in the defined category. You, however, chose to use a much broader category because you either (A) couldn’t win your argument any other way or (B) are trolling.
Actually (A) I like Corvos game and think his skills are underappreciated and (B) will state my opinion and use whatever reasoning I want to do so. If that bothers you, tough shit.
Um, okay. I don’t have a problem with your opinion of Corvo’s game. I have a problem with you deciding to nitpick and argue over semantics. That has nothing to do with your opinion.
Reasoning? How can you expect any one to seriously have a discussion with you when you paint a group of players by an incredibly broad brush and then attempt to argue that there are no differences between those players because they are “in the same category”?
Top 4
in those kinds of stats, i would tend to agree with Killswitch. but the other 2-3 prior posts are also accurate, but the bottom line is and remains…what will JR do ? all of us can speculate all day & night until we drop from exhaustion, but the fact remains. The Hurricanes are a business…and the owners and managers will do what they think is best for them and then the market ( we fans) are in…but it is fun trying to play JR isn’t it ? Go Canes !!
If you think you can't, you won't !
by CaniacSteve on Jan 25, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
YES
Joni has an upside to be sure, but would it make more sense to move him for a massive influx of young talent/high draft picks and keep Corvo? Who would you get more return on, Corvo or Pitkanen? I am thinking the latter.
No doubt you would get more in return with Pitkanen but I would think that has more to do with his age and contract. I agree with you about the advantage of moving Pitkanen, you would probably get a 1st and a legit prospect where as with Corvo, maybe a second and lesser of a prospect. You could sign Corvo for the same if not less of a price tag than Pitkanen has and bring Mcbain up as a replacement. Sounds doable to me.
I take that back, with enough games to prove the injusry is an afterthough, I think Corvo can fetch a first rounder in return. Pitkenen maybe a first, anouther pick and a prospect.
I would be surprised if Corvo went for a second rounder. We will probably just trade him for an underperforming prospect (A-la Jokinen)
No… A pending UFA that we will likely not retain for a future investment. Teams aren’t going to give up a 1st rounder for a rental D-man who isn’t a big named player. Would you rather have him play out the season here and we lose him for nothing?
I don’t see how you reason that a late first rounder would be better than an under-performing top prospect anyway… We just drafted Phillipe Paradis and traded him away a couple months later for Tlusty (an under-performing top prospect).
I said A-la Jokinen. I thought that would imply good player as Jussi is 3rd on our team right now in points with 37 (2 behind Staal who is first and 1 behind Whitney who is 2nd)
So are we having a contest to see how many picks we can pick up or are we trying to build a competitive team? Yes, you’d get more for Pitkanen, but you’d also make your team worse. And yes, you’d get your prospect or pick or whatever, but I don’t believe that is worth having Corvo here instead of Pitkanen.
Pitkanen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Corvo, especially when you factor in age differences and potential.
5 more points in 11 more games…but -1 to Pitkanen’s +11.
Seriously, no way these two are equal in talent, nor roles for the team. The numbers are not the answer…it’s in the quality of play and things they can do.
Their point-per-games were nearly identical. Pitkanen had a much better /- in both the regular season and playoffs (11 vs. -1 and E vs. -7). Pitkanen is also six years younger and is improving while Corvo has topped out. Note that Pitkanen has already matched his assist total from last year (in 29 fewer games) and needs just five points to meet his point total.
Corvo is a career 35-40 point guy who is a mess in his own end and will absolutely not improve in that facet.
Oh wait, I guess they are both the same, though. “Same category” and all, you know?
He actually made improvements the last few years and people were commenting on his improved play in the D-zone, and far from the ‘mess’ Ottawa led us to believe.
And yes, they are both top 4 D-men, you’ll hear that phrase used a lot come deadline time.
Oh, wow. You just won’t let this go, will you?
Yes, they are both top 4 defensemen. That doesn’t mean they are the same caliber of player. Tim Gleason and Duncan Keith are both Top 4 defenseman as well. That doesn’t mean they are on the same tier of defensemen!
Your nitpicking over semantics is bordering on insanity. Just stop. It’s getting really, really old.
Succinct, unambiguous, agrees with me. +3
by drifterscape on Jan 25, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Personally, I think he’d fetch more value at next year’s deadline b/c teams would want to send a similarly salaried player (or package of) back this year. So for me, you keep him this time around and see how much it costs to re-sign him. I think he’d take a bit of a discount to play in this market and be with Ruutu and Jokinen, but you never know.
All that being said, if there’s a knock-your-socks off offer, you make the move.
Agreed. Only a ridiculously good offer for Pitkanen would be worth consideration and I don’t believe teams will be willing to give up that much. Trust me I know everything about hockey : D
by outlander_caniac on Jan 25, 2010 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
More Finns = More Wins
Can’t say that enough. What seems to make the Finns perform better than their talent level in world competition is work effort and team chemistry. So thanks for making Finnish karma a choice LOL.
Actually, in all seriousness I just think he’s an elite talent that would be very difficult to replace. As far as rebuild mode, as a defenseman he’s young enough to stay part of the core for the rebuild.
Sees the world through ruuu-colored glasses...
Sisu
on a team that has an issue with consistency and pp from the blue line, why woudl you trade your bet minute munching point producing defenseman. Yeah you get a better return for him than you do for Corvo, but I am a firm believer in one in the hand is worth more than two in the bush.
Plus when you consider team chemistry, I think you not only lose what Joni brings in terms of production and minutes, but you also effect a player like Jussi’s numbers. It would hacve to be stellar to consider this.
Off Topic but the silence is deafening:
I put up a day and time for another Cry-A-Thon and there is no response by anyone.
I take it nobody is interested?
Happerry Chrisolkwanaka
Lol!I think it’s got something to do with the economy Icd2you (just kiddin with ya)? Just like JR entertaining the thought of moving Pitkanen. I would move him if the price was right, I don’t really care that much for Pitkanen personally. So, if he were to leave.. wouldn’t bother me.
Let the new era of Hurricanes hockey.... begin!
by 3yrsnoplayoffs? on Jan 25, 2010 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
Pitkanen's personality
We sat with Pitkanen at the Canes Luncheon prior to the start of the season. He is extremely shy and has an excellent sense of humor, but it is a quiet, dry wit kind of humor. I sat next to him and found him to be a very impressive young adult. From my perspective, he was the kind of player in terms of character that the Hurricanes would want to keep.
I’ve watched Pitkanen very closely during games and think his skills are sometimes not fully appreciated. He has improved every facet of his game, in my opinion, from the start of the season until now. As far as I am concerned, he may be one of the most highly skilled players this team has acquired on defense.
I’m a multi-year frequenter of that very luncheon, so know just how well personal brushes with a player through a lunch can deliver a sense of just who they are. Part of my belief in Gleason is based on sitting next to him through a meal two years ago. I always assume JR is acquiring character players because, well, that’s what he says we do, but it’s always good to have (and hear) confirmations from personal experiences.
One of the personal benefits of experiencing a season like this as a STH is time at the game to not watch the flow and plays (especially when there are none to be seen!) as much as during a winning season, but spending more time putting players on “iso-cam”.
Joni is one I have occassionally put on iso-cam for me and there are just so many good things he does every shift that it would be impossible to keep up with him listing them. We have no one that can enter the zone under control like him, even if he’s 1-on-3, and still be able to make a pinpoint smooth pass instead of coughing up the puck.
Plus, I watched him calmly cross his arms and simply bulldoze an opposing player over into the corner, instead of fishing around for the puck like most our D-men, allowing Cam to take in the puck. More of this, please, although I’ll grant you it takes a certain physique to do things like this…which he has.
I could go on and on. Trust me, he’s a keeper.
Regarding the character issue, JR alludes to this in his interview posted below. He was asked about “untouchables”, and mentioned no one by name, but says he has a handful of players he’s not interested in moving, 2 with Stanley Cup experience (duh) and the others because of both character and ability.
Sees the world through ruuu-colored glasses...
Sisu
hey AD
i would agree with you…it is funny because in watching him wether it is live at the RBCC or on the TV…the guy moves or seems to move so effortlessly…and when he tosses a pass cross ice through the nutral zone…you hear it go crack on the other guys stick blade…the only players i ever saw who could do that were liie old timers..like a phil esposito type…so if it were up to me, i’d keep Joni period…Go canes
If you think you can't, you won't !
by CaniacSteve on Jan 25, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
I had a hard time picking an answer for this one because I’m torn. At first glance, I’d say no way, he brings far too much to the team, plus the Finn chemistry cannot be denied. But if the right deal came along (and teams are always willing to overpay for a puck-moving d-man), I don’t know if JR could (or should) refuse.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
If we moved him, we couldn’t have “the Pits Pumpkinhead Play of the Game.” I would miss that most of all.
by PackPride17 on Jan 25, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Interesting question
Personally, I can’t decide one way or the other. I can’t figure out how competitive I think this team will be next year (likely not very) or in the 2011-2012 season. When I think they will be more competitive in two years I think there is no reason whatsoever to trade Joni. When I think the team is in for a long re-build, a la the Blues, I think trade him. I do think keep him a lot more than I think trade him though.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
I have more thoughts than this on the matter, but just wanted to comment that you have identified a very important component of the decision matrix.
Before delving into the question of trading Joni at all, one HAS to decide if this is a short-term rebuild or a long-term rebuild. You are correct that if it is a long-term project, like the Blues, you cash in the present asset for futures at a multiplier every time. Team wealth increases and at some point you’re busting at the seams in talent (and must now try to keep ’em all).
However, I personally have us on a shorter time frame. We’re not holding teenagers any longer. We have a fistful of 20 year olds. This won’t take long.
I agree with Elsker. I think th Boston game last night shows how close this team is to being a playoff contending team. Without belaboring the point, I think next year using the talent already on the team, the talent in Albany, and the players from the 2010 Entry Draft, along with jettisoning those veterans who are dead weight, the Hurricanes will be in the fight for the playoffs. My take is the problem this year had to do with the perfect storm of injuries, along with some uninspired play from veterans (particularly Aaron Ward,Yelle, and Brind’Amour), and lack of speed (Wallin).
Two Things
1) I wouldn’t take away too much from the Boston game. Boston started out hot, but pretty much stopped playing after the first goal, and certainly after the quick 2nd and 3rd goals.
2) My biggest worry with being competitive for a playoff spot next year is that may not get the team young enough and talented enough. I’d like to avoid that trap that Florida is in where they aren’t bad enough to get great players and isn’t good enough to be truly competitive. Playoffs are always nice, but breaking in to the playoffs as the #8 spot next year might not be the best idea long term.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
#8 Spot is fine..........
- spot sounds better to me than last place. Once you’re in the playoffs whether it be #1 spot or #8 spot anything can happen. The Canes have proved this time and time again.
I'm Jim Rutherfords assitant and decision maker. -Canescup
hmmmm I would be on the other side of this. You get young players in to the playoffs and give them the experience without a lot of overhyped expectation to go deep. Not only do they get some post season experience, with the lack of pressure to go deep they may just surprise the heck out of you…
You’re confusing short term with long term. The Canes will not be in a position where they can finish 8 next season and then challenge the Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Washington of the league the next year. This re-build will take time and shooting to make the playoffs, especially if that means being a buyer at next years deadline, will not be in the best interests of the team long term.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
Pitkanen: an Untouchable Player
I think Rutherford realizes how important Pitkanen is to the team short-term and long-term. My guess is that Jim Rutherford will not trade Pitkanen unless an offer comes along that is so good any GM in his right mind would have to say yes. Hypothetically, could Jim Rutherford say no to an offer of Pitkanen for both of Boston’s #1 draft picks this year? What about an offer from Pittsburgh of Jordan Staal for Pitkanen?
I am convinced Rutherford is literally asking for Fort Knox in return for Pitkanen, but is pricing the market. I also suspect, but don’t know, that he is using Pitkanen to measure interest in Corvo. I believe there is a 99% chance Pitkanen not only remains with the team this year, but is re-signed when his contract ends. Pitkanen is a game changer, potential superstar who is continuing to mature and improve. He and Jokinen have a magic chemistry together on the ice.
But also, once he becomes an UFA, he’ll probably want a kings ransom to retain him. Money this team doesn’t have to spend. Hence, all the talk of a trades due to financial reasons. Pitkanen already makes 4 million a year, just imagine how much his value skyrockets if he does stay and have a great year next year, he’ll price himself right outta Carolina!
Let the new era of Hurricanes hockey.... begin!
by 3yrsnoplayoffs? on Jan 25, 2010 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Bring back Babchuk!!!
Let the new era of Hurricanes hockey.... begin!
by 3yrsnoplayoffs? on Jan 25, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
You don’t care much personally for Pitkanen, but you want Babchuk…huh ?
by drifterscape on Jan 25, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldnt be surprised if Babchuk is back next year. Not a top two defenseman, but maybe 4/5 with room for development. Also, as a flyer for JR-he can be traded as a rental next year as our rights to him our up, so bring him back for three quarters of a season and then make him someone else’s problem.
I was being sarcastic. I hope they trade Babs rights along with Pitkanen!! LOL!!!
Let the new era of Hurricanes hockey.... begin!
by 3yrsnoplayoffs? on Jan 25, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
oh OK, sorry, but your Joni comment threw me. And I would actually be OK with Babchuk returning.
by drifterscape on Jan 25, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, this team doesn’t have money to spend on great players like Pitkanen. Only garbage overrated declining fan favorites and reclamation projects like Brind’amour, LaRose, Cole and Samsonov. Can’t pay $5M a year for Pitkanen, but you can pay $10m/yr for a handful of 3rd/4th liners?
Brind'Amour, LaRose, Cole, and Samsonov
All four have contracts that end after next year. I suspect and hope Brind’Amour will retire this year and although his $3,600,000 counts against the salary cap, the buy-out will cost less. LaRose, Cole, and Samsonov all have ability; but without being harsh to those three, none possess abilities anywhere close to Pitkanen.
The point I was making was that people don’t think we have enough money to pay for Pitkanen, yet we have $39592359 miillion dollars dedicated to fringe players.
Teams need depth, but they also need top end talent. I am having fits of laughter when I read that people want to keep Corvo over Pitkanen so we can get a higher pick in a trade. Really, it’s hilarious. Should we keep Jokinen over Staal, too?
Okay, let’s say Pitkanen wants a pay increase of $1.5M/yr. You know who frees up that much payroll? Niclas Wallin. Also, Aaron Ward. Problem solved.
I agree. I didn’t make that clear and I apologize. Pitkanen is well worth the money and particularly when compared with the salary of players whose role is not nearly as crucial as Pitkanen and where younger players are available in Albany or the draft with perhaps even better skill sets than the players they would be replacing. I’d rather have one $5,000,000 superstar talent puck moving defenseman than two underachieving players making $2,500,000.00.
It seems like our defensive “system” for the past few seasons has been Cam Ward. If we ever want him to get the stats of a Broduer we have to give him a defense in front of him that can limit the shots he sees to basically harmless ones. You do have to pay for that. Two top offensive lines and a good defense would help this team accomplish that.
Your right that we have too many expensive depth players. My opinion is that you have two good forward lines, a young up and coming line, and a cheap 4th line. We currently have a 4th line that has a $6.6m cap hit (Walker, Brindy, Yelle). That doesn’t in factor in Samsonov. Bottom line is that is never going to work.
I know a lot of people want to roll 4 solid lines, but with the salaries that Staal, Ward, etc. are making – that is going to be difficult. IMO, our 4th line should be players like Dwyer and Samson; career AHLers that will come provide high energy and can work on the PK.
I think JR would take a Pitkanen for J.Staal trade. He’s already under contract and at a reasonable salary. We need to concider this team works with alot of restraints, money being the biggest. Current cap space being the other.
Let the new era of Hurricanes hockey.... begin!
by 3yrsnoplayoffs? on Jan 25, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
That would actually make a lot of sense. Eric as #1 center, Jordan as # 2, Sutter as #3.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
But in a year or so Sutter will be a a legit #2. So you’ve traded Joni for a #3 center.
by drifterscape on Jan 25, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed, but treating this as a fantasy “problem”, we just slide one of the Staal’s over to wing and create our own version of the Sedin twins. :-D
Man, what a salary nightmare this would be down the road, but strong in the middle, we would be. Plug Sequin in for Jordan, realistically, and this kind of depth down the middle (Staal, Sutter, Seguin) is a lot more affordable for a longer period of time.
Who is center after Cullen is Traded?
I have gone over that question many times in my brain as I’ve worked and reworked potential line combinations for next season. It is not knowable at this point whether Seguin is going to be available when the Hurricanes pick. Interestingly, at least one NHL Scout say that Seguin is the clear #1 pick.
In reality Hall is a year ahead of Seguin developementally wise (this is Hall’s 3rd year and Seguin’s 2nd in the OHL) and a lot of people are interested to see if Seguin can continue to develop at a ridiculous pace as he has this year or if he has hit his ceiling. For a point of reference, near the end of last year Seguin was ranked 10th-20th projected overall pick for this year’s draft class.
They have put out a ton of videos in the past month and watching them, it is clear that Hall has unmatched speed while Seguin has an unmatched sniper’s shot (think Phil Kessel). Stick handling normally and then a tenth of a second later a 80 mph snap shot is flying at the net, pretty impressive.
Great points. I think speed kills a defense; and that is one reason I have Taylor Hall as my #1 pick. Even so, I would be equally excited and thrilled if the Hurricanes were able to draft Tyler Seguin.
What happens to your plan if both of these players are not ready for the NHL or are a bust? We post here next year about why we don’t have the right players again and discuss about the prospects that are coming out for the 2011 draft?
"Last season we couldn't win at home and we were losing on the road. My failure was that I couldn't think of any place else to play." - Harry Neale
by hotchipsnsalsa on Jan 25, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Well, that’s just the way it is. No risk no reward. The Pens are where they are because they put their eggs in the Crosby and Malkin basket. The Caps for Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Green. The Blackhawks for Toews, Kane, and Keith.
If any organization has insight into Seguin's developmental arc...
…it’s ours, since he’s essentially in it.
That 17-year-old Hokie sitting in the rafters in Greensboro didn't see any of this coming.
Several people have noted that they felt all things being equal the Hurricanes might pick Seguin over Hall due those connections with Plymouth and the Hurricanes.
Who will be the 2nd/3rd Center?
I have been thinking the same thing. Beyond Staal and Sutter, who do we really have. Yeah, Jussi could play a 3rd line center role, but I don’t think he fits there well and him playing with Staal seems to be working out.
I don’t know, maybe we pick someone up in one of the trades. If weird, we go from having to many centers this season to not enough next year. Next year the problem will be we have to many LW’s.
For this season, when Ruutu comes back (later this week?), I think he slides back onto the wing with Staal and Whitney. Jokinen replaces Kostopolus on the second line. When/if Cole comes back he is on the second line and he bumps Samsonov to #3.
Then of course you have the possibility of Whitney and Cullen being traded and the lines get shaken up again.
As for next year, I think that barring any trades that bring back a center, and thinking that we don’t resign Cullen (which it pains me to even type), you are looking at Staal, Sutter and Jokinen down the middle, with the possibility of a #1 draft pick making the team at the #3 center spot (if it’s Hall).
Still an awful lot of dominos to fall into place. So it’s hard to speculate. But fun!
-m
Jordan is a legit #2 center, but playing #3 in Pittsburgh. I don’t think anyone up there is complaining. You can never be too deep at center.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
Very true, I remember listening to NHL live one day and all they talked about for an hour was how every Stanley Cup winning team in recent history was extremely strong down the middle and they thought that was the key to winning.
Great centers make great wingers, not the other way around. You put Staal, Staal, and Sutter out there as your three centers and you can run just about anyone on those lines and they will be legitimate scoring threats. It maximizes your limited salary by allowing you to pick up two lesser priced wingers.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
Franchise Defensemen
There is no way JR should consider moving Joni, if you’re going to move one of the high dollar Dman go with Corvo. Joni plays with an edge you don’t ever see from Corvo, he’s got just about everything you want on the offensive side: loves to pinch, has a great shot, great vision of the ice for a quick up, nice booming shot from the point, as fast as just about any forward. On the defensive side he’s got a bite to him you see in the corners (that most refs miss), he has no problem taking or giving the body, and is extremely responsible in his own end.
The other aspect of his game is he WANTS to play 30 minutes a night, he WANTS to be on the ice in the last 2 minutes of a game, he WANTS to win. Its hard to say anything bad about Joni, he’s 26 years old and just getting into his prime and seems to really enjoy playing in Carolina. Throw him together with Gleason as your first pairing and you’ve got a strong #1, #2 that you can build a team around.
Why throw Corvo under the bus? Well honestly I love his play. His booming shot and his desire to play but you can really only have one high value offensive Dman with the budget this team has. Both of them want to play 30 minutes a night and thats just not going to work here. If he hadn’t been injured his value would be much higher at this point but I still would give Joni a multi-year (5) contract in this off season.
JR did an interview this morning
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/hurricanes/audio/6878107/
If Ray Whitney does not retire a Carolina Hurricane, I'll go egg Jim Rutherfords car and TP his house.
Interesting interview. I think he is explaining in essence why Cullen and perhaps Corvo will be traded — salary relief and getting draft choices. It seemed, too, as if he would consider adding a player and a second round pick to get a #1 pick. All the GMs are definitely talking. One trade is going to set off a chain reaction, I think, among the NHL GMs.
If somebody wants to overpay an absurd amount, then sure, why not. Toronto’s first rounder? That would be awfully tempting. Throw in a decent roster player or a decent prospect and I’m interested. If we could grab Hall and Fowler or Seguin and Fowler in the same draft… :O
My thoughts exactly
I love Pits, I think he’s excellent, but another high pick along with a prospect would be very tempting… wouldn’t accept much less though…
Fowler and another top 5 pick would make me okay with losing Joni. Fowler and McBain could be a top pair shut down grouping.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
How about we let McBain play a single game in the NHL before declaring him a potential top-pairing shut down defenseman?
McBains been labeled as an offensive D-man, not a shut down guy, but that doesnt mean anything, I’m sure the franchise never even considered that when drafting him, LOL.
I meant the pair would be a top pair shut down pair, not each one was individually a shut down guy. McBain is definitely more the puck mover, but paired with Fowler you’d have a great combination that can shut other teams down and start the break out.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
No, you are. You don’t seem to comprehend the difference between “top-pairing defenseman” and “second-pairing defenseman” since they both are part of the broader Top 4 defenseman category. Apparently the “finer detail” of the game means that players way better than other players aren’t actually better because they are all hockey players, or something. Whatever.
McBain Article: Slightly OT
Interesting article on McBain:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=514902
Just part of the question of who will be traded. I expect Corvo and not Pitkanen ultimately to be traded and for Pitkanen to be used to help mentor McBain and Rodney.
a key question is, how competitive will the team be next year, with or without him? While the defenseman is still young, he is very highly compensated.
Also, how much will Pitkanen command in salary at the end of next year? 5 or 6 million per year, or more? Will he be priced out of the market? If so, why keep him one “rebuilding” year if you can get another impact player for much less money?
GM of CanesCountry.com
You will eventually have to pay that “impact” player big money of that player has anywhere close to the impact that Pitkanen does.
And why would a contending team move an impact player off their roster for Pitkanen? Teams looking to stock up for the playoffs don’t make lateral moves.
The whole trading Pitkanen idea is based on the “we can’t afford him after next season” theory. Well, who CAN we afford if we can’t afford Pitkanen? Answer: someone not as good.
For a Potential Puck Moving Defenseman of Superstar Talent, You Pay FMV
It’s pretty obvious from a pure business standpoint that the Hurricanes team as a business proposition has to go relatively deep into the playoffs to be profitable. To get to the playoffs, a team has to have a first tier puck moving defenseman. Pitkanen has shown he has superstar talent.
It makes zero business sense to trade a rare, hard-to-find player because his FMV is high. His FMV is high because he has that talent. The team spent the money it needed spend on Staal and on Cam Ward and on Ruutu. It is illogical to risk that investment by failing to sign a first tier puck moving defenseman. It is also bad business to do so. I feel confident a hockey family like the Karmanos family and Jim Rutherford know far better than me the business value and worth of Pitkanen. They are the ones taking the high dollar risk in owning and running the team.
Thats what I was saying earlier in the post. Thanks Bob for backing me up on that!
Let the new era of Hurricanes hockey.... begin!
by 3yrsnoplayoffs? on Jan 25, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
"why keep him one rebuilding year?"
like Cory said, his value will be even higher next year.
You wait to see what hes wanting, hoping he takes a discount, and then trade him if you need too. Who is going to give up a cheaper “impact player” for Pits, who right now, is on the “cheaper end” of impact players?
The guy earns every bit of his 4mil…there is not one guy on our team, or in the system, that is even close to what pits is for us
I’m not convinced his value will be highest at the deadline next year. I think his value will be highest at the draft. Teams will know they have him for a year and can begin negotiating with him. Additionally, it will be easiest to fit his contract in at that point in time.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
generally speaking, players’ trade values are at thier peak right before the trade deadline and when they are in the final year of thier current contract. Since joni has an additional year left on his contract, he is not a prototypical guy to be traded at this years deadline. He is not, in essence, a “rental” player. His extra year on the contract actually hurts his trade value for this year. Here is how I see the potential outcomes of acquiring a rental player, in order of best result to worse .
1. you acquire a contract expiring player/or player with additional year, he has a big impact come playoff time, but then he is off the books and if he worked out well – then throw cash at him.
2. you acquire a contract expiring player, he doesnt work out, but then he is off the books and you are rid of him.
3. you acquire a player with additional year, he doesnt work out, but he stays on your roster for another year, and eats up salary, and doesnt have as much value anymore.
Not saying Joni is going to tank if he was traded to another team, but there is that possibility and an added risk.
But the thing is at the draft Joni will essentially be a full year rental player. He won’t be a twenty five game rental, but an 82 game rental. He can help with not just the playoffs, but the regular season as well. If he works out, then you extend him. If he doesn’t, well it’s not much different than picking him up at the deadline.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
Asset Management
Here’s what it amounts to as a GM if you had Pitkanen under contract would you trade Pitkanen for (1) Aaron Ward, (2) Wallin, and (3) Scott Walker?
I know I would not. I would think that trade proposal was absurd.
YES YES YES.
You see, Aaron Ward and Joni Pitkanen are both “NHL defensemen.” That means they are in the SAME CATEGORY. That means they are equal players.
Then you throw in ANOTHER NHL defenseman. Then you get Scott Walker, who is a forward just like Crosby so they are the same player.
Highway robbery.
If the Business Model is all about having a team that, if it plays well, can grab the #8 seed than moving Joni makes financial sense. If the Model seriously includes the Stanley Cup , moving Joni makes no hockey sense. Joni’s worth more than $4mil to serious Cup teams.
by drifterscape on Jan 25, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
You can resign Joni without having the huge cap hit increase. The way you do that is to cheat the system like Chicago and Philly do. Sign him to a eleventeen year contract with all the money up front and have him making 150k the final two years. Then he would get paid $7m the next couple of seasons, but his cap hit would remain at $4m.
I agree with this and wouldn’t be upset if they did exactly this. Just sign him for 8 years or so (front loaded at $6 million a year averaging out to a cap hit of $4 million or so). Very similar to the deal that Duncan Keith got. He would only be 32 at the end of the contract which isn’t too bad. Pitkanen has been integral in developing our young D, they consistently put him with a younger or weaker (A. Ward) partner to cover his mistakes and he does it well.
PMD's worth
As everyone points out, people are willing to "overpay’ for a PMD but there is a reason for this. These guys are hard to find, and invaluable to a team’s success. You look at the difference between the pens without Gonchar in the lineup and with him in the lineup. The question should be, if we give up this type of player can we replace him with someone in the system, or someone else outside the system for cheaper. His role has to be filled if you want a successful team and is there more upside by trying to find a cheaper alternative or paying more and retaining chemistry and a known skill set?
The answer to the within the system question is a gigantic “no.” I mean, it’s not even really close. The fact that Bryan Rodney is brought up in discussions about our “prospect” defensemen really says it all. Bryan Rodney is like the ECHL version of Pitkanen.
Outside the system? You don’t get bargains on top pairing defenseman on the UFA market and anyone you would acquire via a trade would cost a substantial asset.
Jack Johnson
Is anybody following the Jack Johnson meltdown with the LA Kings? It’s open warfare in the press between the GM and Jack Johnson. A player arguing with his GM is like an attorney arguing with a judge. The judge always, always, always has the final say and the last word.
It’s going to get uglier, too … little bird told me.
by Cory Lavalette on Jan 25, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
I bet if you had ask Lombardi about that trade now he would say he would not have pulled the trigger.
by wylde4canes on Jan 25, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Lombardi would want to pull a different kind of trigger at this point as it relates to Jack Johnson. It goes to show that personality and character and the psyche of players matter every bit as much as how much physical skill a player possesses.
which is a point oft overlooked in the for/against E Staal arguments.
by wylde4canes on Jan 25, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
after all this time…why would we really be concerned with him ? wasn’t he a pain when the canes thought about suiting him up ?
If you think you can't, you won't !
by CaniacSteve on Jan 25, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
well Bryan Rodeny is not even our best bet for an in the system answer IMO ( that would be McBain) but I think your overall answer of NO is right.
by wylde4canes on Jan 25, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that our defenseman “prospects” are on the weaker side. I like Rodney, Carson, and McBain; but are any really considered top pairing prospects? And after those guys, who is the next in line. I hope some of the trades we make are for some defensive prospects that could contribute soon or at least restock our AHL team.
McBain could get there. I wouldn’t count out Borer, tho he has a long road back (mostly psychologically, I bet). Kyle Lawson’s a bit of a sleeper … he won’t be a top pairing, but he’s really overachieved at Notre Dame. He’s a good little player.
Don’t forget about Brian Dumoulin either — he’s a long way off, but he could be special given his size, skating, puck skills.
by Cory Lavalette on Jan 26, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
I see what your saying. I’ve also heard good thing about Jordan. The defense is just my biggest concern. I think Pits is a 1st pairing guy. I think Gleason is a 2nd pairing guy, even though many believe he could be a 1st pairing guy. Alberts is a 3rd. McBain IMO is a 2nd with a shot at a 1st. Carson and Rodney are probably 3rds, but will probably play a 2nd and 3rd role. Borer, I just don’t know if he’ll ever get to the N. The other guys have promise, but are probably a couple years away still.
I like the 3 D-Men that should be back next year and I like that Carson & Rodney will probably be on the big squat too. That still leaves a 1st pairing and 7th defenseman opening. I’m just very nervous who fills those spots.
Don't break up the Finns.
Dallas did it and the hockey gods have wreaked havoc on us ever since. Plus, I heart Jussi Jokinen and I don’t want him to lose his BFF.
Dallas Stars 4 Life: Stars Blogging From Hockeyville, Iowa
I'm a girl. The screen name can be misleading, I understand.
by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Jan 25, 2010 12:10 PM EST reply actions
Don't Tempt the Hockey Gods
Don’t tempt the hockey gods is a great mantra by which to live. The Finns on the Hurricanes team have brought an amazing work ethic and chemistry to the team. When you find magic in chemistry on a team, it is really critical to recognize it and protect it. If I were Jim Rutherford, I would scour the Finnish programs to find a tractor-trailer power forward on skates. The imagine I have is Ruutu’s bigger younger brother.
Undecided
You know, I’m really in the middle of the see-saw on this one. Pits has been great the last 2 months in our own end and on the point sheet. Has he always been like that? No, not really. Does Pitkanen continue developing or plateau at this point? Fall back?
There’s also some intangible questions at hand: Have we ever done that greatly with a #1 d-man on our roster? I don’t remember that happening. Our best d-corps were always blue-collar guys. That and money could be an issue. If Pitts keeps playing like this he could easily catch 5-6M on his next contract. I don’t think JR and Mo like high-priced d-men that much.
Bob’s got a good point – we’re rebuilding next year. How much will Pitkanen really matter? Unless we get lucky and pull a Colorado…
I’d like to keep him but I also don’t know what insane offer a desperate GM might make.
I say keep the phone lines open.
mucha do about next years rebuild
I dont see next year as a traditional rebuild year. I think most of our rebuild will start during the second half of this year. I think we are one or two smart moves from being in the race for the playoffs next year. This team got top heavy on vets and did not have enough youth, you peel that back some and actually have a little bit better luck in the health department and this is a team who can compete next year for 5-8 slot, which I think is a good goal. Shore up the blue line and drop a few dead weight pieces from the forward corps and this team is much improved. Combine that with the fact that we have guys who seem to thrive in the post season, you never know the magic that come to follow landing 5-8
Jokinen #1 Star by Puck Daddy (slightly OT)
It is slightly off topic, but relates to chemistry and Pitkanen. Jokinen was Puck Daddy’s #1 star:
http://vyous.com/sports/nhl/canes/2010/01/25/hockey-transactions—-the-canadian-press
From my viewpoint, Pitkanen certainly was at least a significant positive factor in Jokinen’s success.
The Hockey News
Rumor Roundup from The Hockey News:
Looks like a fire sale will begin soon for the Carolina Hurricanes.
TSN reported GM Jim Rutherford had asked left winger Ray Whitney and defenseman Niclas Wallin to waive their no-trade clauses. Matt Cullen, Scott Walker, Aaron Ward, Stephane Yelle, Manny Legace and Andrew Alberts are also believed available.
The Raleigh News and Observer reported Whitney and Wallin haven’t waived their clauses yet, but that doesn’t mean they might not do so in the coming weeks.
It remains to be seen if Wallin will finally do so having twice rejected previous requests from Rutherford in recent years to waive it to facilitate a trade.
Cullen and Ward might also attract some attention around the league by the trade deadline.
no doubt! I would have likely agreed on the second time. He hasn’t been that bad this year, tho.
Does Nicky have family in the area or is he a bachelor?
Married with school-aged kids, at least one son in local hockey programs.
Sees the world through ruuu-colored glasses...
Sisu
I don’t blame him for refusing. The organization gave him the NTC and therefore must deal with the consequences. I think he’ll retire before agreeing to go elsewhere. And I know people don’t like him, but he’s one of those guys who I would want to see retire as a Hurricane.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
I can agree with Nic not waiving the NTC previously, but now, for his sake, he should. It’s no secret that the Canes are not likely to keep Wallin. If he wants a job in the NHL, or the SEL for that matter, he’s better served being away from his family for a few months and playing for a contender. Imagine Wallin on Pittsburgh or Chicago’s third pairing! It would benefit everyone.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
Unless he’s ready to retire and wants to do it here, as a member of the team. Not saying that I know for a fact that he is or isn’t, but he’s what? 35? And unless he has some serious Chelios aspirations, he may be ready to retire “on top” so to speak.
"This guy is as meat and potatoes as there is of a man."
Gleason for Emperor!
Well, I have no idea if he will be willing to waive the NTC, but I think he as been playing his best hockey of the season over the last week or so. I know he is a favorite whipping boy for a lot of folks around here, but if he keeps playing the way he has of late, he will likely be a significant chip to play at the deadline. Tons of playoff experience, and he is “the secret weapon”.
And I agree that he has every right to waive his NTC and I would not hold it against him. I don’t think he will be resigned by the Canes next year at this point and I doubt there will be many suitors in an increasingly tight (from $$ standpoint) free agent market. Who knows, maybe JR dangles an offer of “if you waive your NTC, we will sign you to a Glen Wesley special next year” – i.e. one year contract at a below market price. If he makes the team out of training camp, great. If not, he retires a Hurricane. Yeah, I know, that sounds crazy.
-m
Wallin last week or so
I still believe Wallin will not be re-signed, if all anybody saw was Wallin over the past week or so, Wallin’s play would be seen as solid and steady.
Bringing Wallin back on the Glen Wesley special after he’s traded isn’t a bad idea. That would give you Gleason, Pitkanen, Alberts and Wallin under contract next season. Then two young players could take those two spots, or one rotating young player and a reasonably priced guy. Keep you from having three new players on the blue line next season.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
A “top four” that has to be chosen from that menu is pretty scary, in my opinion.
What’s gotten us in trouble all season is having so much top-four talent out due to injuries that a weak D-corps is having to play at least one pairing above where they should be slotted.
They’d be fine against equal talent, which is what they were hired to defend, but the injuries have forced them to face much more talented opposition than they sometimes can handle.
Same feeling I get when I look at that list and try to fashion a second-pairing from Wallin, Alberts, and two newbies. I think we need to import at least one solid “top four” D-man from somewhere before next season, via trade or FA.
One, in a cap league there is only so much planning you can do for injuries. You just can’t afford to have top-4 d-men waiting in the league unless you draft them well.
Two, my worry for next season isn’t making the playoffs but developing young players in to quality NHL players. D-men gradually build. They achieve small successes that eventually lead to big success. If you have three new blue liners, and even worse, three rookie blue liners, it becomes very hard to achieve those small successes. There’s too much uncertainty and too many mistakes elsewhere IMO. If we retain Wallin and Pits then you have a spot for Carson and then another rotating spot for a young d-man and you’re able to put those guys in to situations they can succeed in and progress their development so you can compete in the 2011-12 season.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
I’m not convinced that any of those four are going to make it to the two top pairings, no matter how much time you give them to “succeed” (or fail).
It’s not even a question of “just give them time”. It’s more a belief that they’re just not that good.
Man’s got to know his limitations, says Mr. Eastwood. Theirs is third parings with spot duty in the top four when injuries strike.
I think Carson has a shot to be a No. 4 b/c he can play in all situations.
by Cory Lavalette on Jan 26, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
That’s a reasonable expectation for him, and let’s say it’s attainable (splash/swim!) next year.
So, Pitkanen, Gleason, Carson…and who? I really don’t see a candidate from within the org at the moment.
Trade or FA, we still need a top 4 defenseman. The others get top 4 minutes when injuries strike.
Top 4 Defenseman
Unless the Hurricanes can find a prodigy top 4 in the draft, the Hurricanes will need to sign a UFA top four. It looks like a puck-moving, fast, big defenseman is needed — hopefully one with a cannon for a shot. Rodney and Alberts can be the third pairing, I think. Who knows, if Alberts could figure out better when to try to skate the puck away from pressure, he might surprise us as a top 4. My guess is that a UFA top 4 defenseman will be signed and if there are more than one #1 pick, one of the #1 picks will be a puck-moving defenseman.
Lively discussion on a Monday afternoon! I’d use Joni like the Shiney Corvette in the middle of the showroom: He brings people in, but when they realize they can’t afford him you sell them something more reasonable, like a Cobalt (A. Ward).
Still not a crook!
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
IF WE TRADE PITKANEN THEN WERE JUST GONNA LOOK FOR ANOTHER PITKANEN
DO NOT TRADE THE MAN
I know this is completely outrageous of a proposition, but what would the chances be that the Canes take a look at bringing in Jack Johnson? I know his time and play have soured in LA, but maybe a change of scenery, not in the limelight, would help him reach his development. Especially having exceptional leaders such as Gleason/Staal and Francis /Wesley in the front office. I’m not saying I would welcome it, but trade say a 4th round pick and say Rosie for him, JJ would come cheaply in terms of salary and maybe fill that potential we saw in him when we drafted him. Look at Dion Phaneuf, he’s been out of this world good in previous seasons, but is struggling now with rumors or the Flames wanting to trade him. JJ is by no means in the class of Phaneuf, but maybe a change of scenery and some leadership could help this once bright star out.
Again this is a complete hypothetical proposition. I by no means am wishing for it. Just throwing an idea out there to be discussed.
No, N, O, no!
As we rebuild having Character guys in the room is soooooo crucial. JJ has proven to be of questionable character by publicly bickering with the only Two GM’s he has ever been accountable to. Next years team will have some definite rocky patches, even if we do end up a playoff team, and how we respond to those rough patches will be dictated by the kind of guys we have in the locker room. He is a malcontent and persona non gratis in the tarheel state.
As far as I am concerned let him be the next in a series of bad decisions by Brian Burke.
Hell no! He won't go!
I'm Jim Rutherfords assitant and decision maker. -Canescup
by canescup on Jan 25, 2010 2:53 PM EST via mobile reply actions
NO NO NO
Outside of being a fast, smooth player who is big and can log a lot of minutes, he is a character guy. Jr wanted him so badly he traded Cole to get him.
His chemistry with our other two Finns is priceless.
And you can’t count his worth in “goals” provided by a defenseman. Last night alone, he saved a goal with his long reach when it went behind Cam——and he did the nifty pass to Jussi for Jussi’s goal——-the one they perfected years ago.
IMO both he and Jussi should be part of the core. Next year, at trade deadline, if we are not contenders, he will still have high value. He hasn’t reached his peak yet.
I agree with whoever said we are not going to have a complete “from the bottom” re-build some teams have to go through. We have key pieces who are very young and some who are still fast even though in their early 30’s———-who could make a push next year.
GO CANES! Go Heels!
noooo way. make all three of the finns untouchable. the connection they have is amazing. if they break up the finns, its going to mess up our whole team. keep joni, no matter what.
by silent_shadow36 on Jan 25, 2010 3:49 PM EST reply actions
No way. He’s part of the core of guys we need moving forward. Pitkanen and Gleason are our top-2 and they deserve to be. Corvo is 3/4 and we really don’t have anyone else at that level when we will trade Corvo. Alberts is more of a 5/6 guy but the way he’s playing he could be 3/4. Wallin is borderline too. Ward’s been playing like a bottom pair kinda guy. I’m hoping Ward’ll get packaged with Whitney or Cullen to get us a little bit back and shed some salary. We are pretty thin at the blue line as is, so no way would we get rid of half our top pair.
I really hope they do not trade him. He is still a young guy, and unless it is his contract that is a hang up, I wouldn’t trade him. I am inclined to agree with others who say that, while yes, we could get Toronto’s 1st pick (through Boston), how long will it take before that guy can honestly contribute night in and out?
I am more inclined to keep him here. I also voted it would mess up that Finnish mojo, especially between him and Jussi. That is a nasty combination when they connect.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
I know I’m late chiming in….
But trading Pitkanen seems like the worst Idea anyone has had since they traded for Aaron Ward….
Why in Hell would you trade him….. Unless it was for an already established d-man w/ the same skills…. ????
That would be dumb!
by Mateos_Canes_Lamp on Jan 25, 2010 10:30 PM EST reply actions
Common Cold
He has more talent then any other defensemen we have but I question his heart. I had a serious problem earlier this year when Joni missed a game due to a common cold. I think we would have serious problem replacing his talent but if we can get equal return I would take the deal. Every place Joni has been traded from was happy to see him go. I think he has made great strides since being with the Canes but I don’t see the consistency if we are asking him to be our #1 defensemen.
Okay, please name the D-man of the same approximate age(26) and salary($4mil) that you would trade Pitkanen for. An equal return. He’ll need to be a puck-handling, playoff tested, high 20’sTOI guy.
by drifterscape on Jan 26, 2010 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
FTR he had a fever…
… and IIRC we were all out of cowbell.
Sees the world through ruuu-colored glasses...
Sisu
You must not have been following the team the season everyone (including a few ticketing reps) spent the entire year passing the Flu around to one another…..
Screw that… if these guys have so much as a sniffle they should stay at home…..
by Mateos_Canes_Lamp on Jan 26, 2010 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Colds, Flu, Fevers and Quarantine
The coaches were keeping all players out of the lineup who had possible flu out of concern that the team would get their immunity down and would be more susceptible to H1N1 virus. It is a smart decision by the coaching staff and doctors on a number of different levels.
It’s not a question of any player’s heart, it is question of keeping the ill and potentially contagious player quarantined. In old school days, everybody played sick and I know I thought I was very macho for doing so; but it was a really bad idea for the rest of the team. Now my kids are told to stay home from games when they have a fever. Same is true as I understand it at the college level and as far as I know in every professional sport. There is too much risk of one contagious player infecting the entire team with the flu.
I would like to second a comment made earlier, if we trade Pits than we immediately go looking for the guy to replace him.
Can you believe the guy is only 26? He is just entering his prime. His development while playing for the Canes has been tremendous. I think Tom Rowe should be given a lot of credit for what he has done with the D corp this year. The phrase chicken salad out of chicken feathers comes to mind. Rowe has proven that he can develop defenseman for us. Over the past two seasons look how much Gleason and Pitkanen have improved. Heaven forbid that Pits actually has one partner for an entire season. The problem is, no one else can handle the minutes that he is given. This may also be because our defense is so shitty on some nights. As I’ve said over and over, the coaches don’t tap Joni and the shoulder for the hell of it.
If we were to trade Pitkanen it would have to be for a top pairing defensemen or top six winger AND a high first round draft pick. Otherwise this organization goes back to “Chasing Amy” until we find another top flight d man.
"He has all the virtues I dislike, and none of the vices I admire." -Sir Winston Churchill
Is everyone here watching something else?!?!?!
I am really amazed that Caniac Nation has mostly all given their support and admiration to this guy. Maybe I am truly watching some kind of alternate dimension when I turn on FS Carolinas, but Joni Pitkanen is a terrible defenseman. And before everyone trashes me for saying so, hear me out.
He’s unbelievably lazy in his own end. I’ve lost count how many times I’ve seen him get beat to loose pucks, on odd man rushes, or just shoved off the puck. How this man is a plus ever is a mystery to me.
He gives the puck away at least five times a game. And most of those are prime opportunities that the other team turns into goals. There has to be a stat on this somewhere, but how many goals against us has he directly been the cause of this year?
The dreaded “shot from his own zone” play. He does this on occasion and more often than not, it costs us an icing. This occurs usually after we’ve already made a change. I get it – he’s trying for a rebound so the forwards can crash in. I’ve seen it work once.
His general zoning in and out during the game. The man will get in a guy’s face briefly, and then the next shift he’ll be skating around in la la land like he’s in Bantam. He’s horribly positioned most of the time, camping out about four feet from our goalie, swatting away instead of playing defense. Seriously, am I watching some other team?
I saw someone post a Jordan Staal for Joni Pitkanen trade. If JR got that offer across his desk he would be a fool to turn it down. And if Ray Shero (I think he’s still in Pittsburgh) made that offer to us, as a Pens fan, I would be ready to call for his head on a platter.
Yeah, I hear the big argument now – he plays 56 minutes a night. Leads the league, somehow. He’s got great hands and good offensive instincts. You’re right – he does…PLAY HIM AT FORWARD THEN! Last time I checked, our team was nearly last in the standings and, injuries aside, have been pretty bad defensively. So why are we adulating anyone on our defense besides Tim Gleason, who has shown this season that he deserves to be a cornerstone of the franchise for many years to come??? That’s like saying Tom Kostopoulous has been an offensive juggernaut this year with 6 goals.
If we could get a high 1st for him, sounds great to me. That gives Carson, Rodney, and everyone else a lot of opportunity for the rest of 2009-10 to show us who’s going to be on this team for the forseeable future.
All things being equal, we’d rather have Pitkanen over Corvo? Really? Corvo is another heart and soul guy that has real talent – the “I don’t have to play 52 minutes a night to produce 30 points” kind of talent who’s responsible in his own end.
I think this is one of the issues with this team. Remember 2006? How much “sizzle” was on that team? How many Pitkanen’s were there versus the Commodore’s, the Seidenberg’s, the Hedican’s?
Again, I must be watching like the Saturn Hurricanes or something, because I must be off my nut. I seriously cannot believe very few people out of the 400+ comments made any mention of the type of player Pitkanen is.
by OriginalCaniac on Jan 26, 2010 11:39 AM EST reply actions
That’s where this goes….lol…
But please, elaborate zippy.
by OriginalCaniac on Jan 26, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
He does occasionally slip, but 5 times a game? C’mon. His benefits far outweigh the hazards. As far as rather having Pitkanen over Corvo, I like them both about the same. They’re both solid players who make the occasional brain fart, but play crazy minutes and get a lot done for this team. Not to mention they have pretty different roles on the D, so it’s hard to compare them anyways at anything other than a superficial level.
by Raccoon Fink on Jan 26, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
An easy way to compare Jone and Corvo
Assuming all facets of their games are equal, Joni is 26 compared to Corvo being 32. Joni is entering his prime, Corvo is coming to the end of it. Joni is likely to be the same player longer than Corvo will be.
5 seconds left.
Do you believe in miracles?
YES!!
I will agree with OriginalCaniac that Pits does make some bad turnovers and does not own a great defensive side, but his skill handling the puck makes up for it. In this NHL, you have to have defenseman that can skate, that can control the puck, and basically quarterback the play (not just the PP, by 5 on 5). He isn’t great in his own zone, but isn’t as bad as you may think. If he was paired with the right partner (an above average all-around defenseman), it would make a huge difference on this team. This season he has been matched up with rookies learning their way and the “Ice Diaster Master” AWard. While Corvo owns the better shot, he is just as, if not more prone to bad turnovers and is not as skilled a passer as Pits. Corvo is also more of a head case. When things are going well, he does fine. When things get a little sticky, he get flustered and makes bad plays.
Seidenberg was not on the 2006 team.
It sounds to me that you have some sort of time warp going on with your cable box.
The Pitkanen you describe sounds like the version that played for the Flyers.
The version we have here is a keeper.
For those who haven’t seen it, the folks over at Die By The Blade got all into a lather about a possible trade of Pitkanen to the Slugs (“originalcaniac” posted his qualms there as well, but was largely ignored. Have an agenda much?):
http://www.diebytheblade.com/2010/1/25/1269169/is-joni-pitkanen-buffalos-missing
-m
Interesting assessment in the article cited by UTTRmartin
I’d much rather have a player like Pitkanen who is all-universe with talent and who takes some risks than have a slow-footed, slow-witted veteran. I think a realistic comparison is to look at Corvo’s play when health as compared with Pitkanen’s play. Pitkanen to my mind is many, many times the superior defenseman — even though Corvo has much more experience. Corvo is an excellent defenseman and like all defensemen he makes mistakes. Pitkanen is the kind of athlete who rarely comes along and who still is improving each game.
http://www.diebytheblade.com/2010/1/25/1269169/is-joni-pitkanen-buffalos-missing
Here’s a partial quote:
With Buffalo’s defensive depth, someone from the back line would have to leave obviously in exchange but this is a deal worth considering. The Finnish Olympian has had a monstrous campaign which is going largely unnoticed because of the fact Carolina is ranked last in the Eastern Conference. Pitkanen has 28 points in 42 contests and is aiming at a career-year offensively. Those are exquisite numbers for a defenseman who’s in his position with the Hurricanes. They have struggled mightily and Joe Corvo’s absence has just about placed all of the offense from the back onto his hockey stick. But Pitkanen hasn’t been petrified by the work-load.
And the veteran brings everything the Sabres need. His first-pass efficiency is extraordinary (watch how often he springs Jussi Jokinen into the opposite zone), he’s cool under pressure, a smart decision maker, a special teams weapon, a character guy, occasionally gritty and logs a ton of ice time (currently averaging the most throughout the league at over 27 minutes per game). What more can we ask for? Could Joni Pitkanen be the final element the Buffalo Sabres are in search of?
Highlight plays
Yes he makes the highlight play. But I remember the frustration watching him make the simple play in the playoffs. Corvo and Gleason were by far our top two pair in the playoffs last year. he makes every defensemen he plays with look bad. he leaves his partner out to dry more times then making a highlight play. I’ve got to say some of his skating and passing skills are amazing but he makes too many mistakes to be a number 1 defensemen.
Gleason and Corvo were not “by far” our best combo. I’m not going to look it up, but assuming you’re right I guess then that Joni played with Seidenberg. They were “by far” worse than the other ? That’s just wrong.
And complaining about Joni’s defense is just a distraction. You know, like a Caps fan whining about M.Green’s defense, or Pens fan about S.Gonchar being too slow.
by drifterscape on Jan 26, 2010 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, that must be why Corvo was -7 to Pitkanen’s E rating in the playoffs. Or that Pitkanen averaged 21:03 per game at even strength to Corvo’s 18:36 and Gleason’s 17:21. If you think Pitkanen had a bad playoffs, then I’m not sure what to say. Were you one of those on the official CH boards calling for him to be a healthy scratch in favor of Babchuk?
He makes his defensive partners look bad? Huh? Who has looked bad while paired with Pitkanen other than A.Ward, who looks bad regardless of who he plays with? Babchuk and Seidenberg were terrible last season while paired with Pits, right?
“Too many mistakes to be a number 1 defenseman”. Well, guess what? Gleason isn’t a #1 either and Corvo isn’t even remotely close.
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