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Excellence coming soon from Charlotte?

Rather than getting down about the Dallas loss, I decided to try to figure out how plausible it is for internal growth to turn the Canes into an excellent team fairly soon. Wilson does a great job of keeping us current on the Checkers, but I was wondering how the Canes' prospects in Charlotte are doing compared to other AHL prospects of the same age. I'm no expert at evaluating hockey talent, but I can make crude numerical comparisons between players competing at the same level. That's what I've done. I'm probably wrong about everything. On the other hand, the world's greatest experts on hockey talent said Jeff Skinner was a 2nd round pick. Numbers may be misleading, but apparently the expert observations of hockey scouts aren't much more reliable. So here goes.

Before adjusting for age, keep in mind that in absolute terms, Zach Boychuk is tied for third in AHL scoring with 25 points in 24 games. Jerome Samson is in 7th place with 24 points in 24 games, Chris Terry in 28th place, Oskar Osala in 47th, Zac Dalpe in 83rd, and Drayson Bowman in 139th. Dalpe and Bowman have of course played only 14 games in Charlotte because of the time they spent with the Canes. More on those two below.

The First Cut

My first pass at adjusting for age was to eliminate AHL scorers born before 1987. That cut leaves Boychuk ranked 2nd in the league (behind Canadiens' 1st rounder Max Pacioretty, a year older than Boychuk and a veteran of 86 NHL games compared to Boychuk's 33), Samson 3rd, Terry 11th, and Osala 19th. That's right--Terry moved up 17 places and Osala 28. It shows what a big influence age and experience have on AHL scoring and suggests it may be interesting to cut another age cohort.

The second cut after the jump.

Star-divide

2 Out of 3 Isn't Bad, and Neither Are 3 Out of 6 and 4 Out of 8

Eliminating players born before 1989 knocks out Samson and Osala and many other players. Boychuk ranks 1st in the league among this even younger age group and Terry 3rd. Two of the top 3 isn't bad at all, but this excludes players like Dalpe and Bowman who have played subtantially fewer games. Also excluded are other teams' prospects promoted to the NHL, such as Nazem Kadri of the Leafs and Luke Adam of the Sabers.

So I decided to calculate points per game for the 1989 and younger group (though beyond the first 80 scorers in the league, I did not check carefully to ensure that I didn't overlook anybody who meets the age criterion - I looked carefully at Canes' prospects and scanned the rest). It looks to me as though Kings' prospect Andrei Loktionov is most productive in the youngest age group with 1.21 points per game, followed by the Sabers' Luke Adam with 1.12, and Boychuk with 1.04. Next come Zac Dalpe and Nazem Kadri at 1.00 and then Bowman and Mikkel Boedker in a tie for 6th with 0.86. Terry is 8th with 0.79 points per game. That's right, 3 of the top 6 and 4 of the top 8 in per-game scoring among the youngest cohort of AHL players are Canes' prospects.

What if anything does all this mean for the rest of the 2010-11 season and the future? For starters, it was inevitable for demotion to Charlotte to take some luster off Canes' forward prospects so it's nice to see that very few AHL prospects in their age cohort are doing better than they are. The other names that turn up after these sorts for age are mostly well-known players drafted very high. Kadri was drafted 7th overall, Boedker 8th overall, Max Pacioretty 22nd, Luke Adam 44th. Don't know why Loktionov wasn't drafted higher unless it's the Russian factor. He has made the Kings at age 20 and scored the game-winning goal in a 4-3 victory over the Canes this year. If those players are good NHL prospects, so are several of the youngest Canes in Charlotte. We shouldn't leap to the conclusion that Boychuk, Dalpe and Bowman will be average NHL players or worse.

Furthermore, Terry and Samson continue performing at a high enough level in the AHL to merit serious NHL consideration. They are young, productive players competing mostly against older and more experienced AHL pros who clearly benefit from their experience. And then there's Osala. He's good and getting better. He's also big and Finnish and neither of those things hurts his chances for promotion. In short, the Canes really do have hot prospects in Charlotte and probably can become an excellent offensive team fairly soon.

It's harder to tell what's up with defensive prospects. Carson, Sanguinetti and Borer will play in the NHL at some point, but likely won't provide an upgrade over current Canes' Dmen with the possible exception of Harrison. Some of the other defensive prospects like Dumoulin, Faulk and perhaps Alt and Biega will make it to the Canes someday and probably have higher ceilings--in some cases, much higher. But the current Canes' defense is as good as we're likely to get without a trade or a major free agent signing. Not likely given the salary budget.

I'd be remiss not to mention players on the current Canes' roster with 1988 and later birth dates: Skinner was born in 1992, Sutter in 1989, and Tlusty and McBain in 1988. It's not their fault that they're not generating AHL statistics this year for the sake of my comparison. All will obviously get better with experience and make the Canes a better team. It's hard to forecast how much improvement we'll see. Skinner is a sure thing, but how high will he get this year and next? Stamkos had 23 goals his first year and Tavares 24. Skinner is on that kind of pace for this year. Tavares is on about the same pace this year as his first. Stamkos scored 51 goals in his second season (aided by talented linemates). Big difference. Will Skinner be more like Tavares or Stamkos in the second year? (Is it nuts to look at top overall picks as the point of reference?) Sutter is already very good. Will he become a big, fast power player when his body fills out? Will Tlusty look like a high 1st rounder when his knee is fully recovered? Is McBain going to be closer to the phenom of last season or the disappointment early this season? Finding the answers to these questions may be alternately frustrating and fun (like last night's game against the Stars and the previous games against the Caps and Bruins).

The crude comparisons above suggest that the Canes' bright future is NOT a mirage.There is every reason to expect a half dozen Canes' AHL prospects to turn into above average NHL players. It's not crazy to hope that a couple of those prospects will become NHL stars and Skinner a star on Staal's level. It's even remotely possible that one of the top offensive prospects in Charlotte could have an impact this year if given regular shifts in the top 9. (There's only one way to find out.) Canes' talent at forward is bound to get substantially better from internal development.

What's still very unclear is whether JR can find a way to improve the defense when big shut-down defensemen command such high salaries. Can the Canes consider adding another high salary and keep Pitkanen and Gleason? Will the Canes uncharacteristically try to rush Dumoulin if he decides to leave BC and would that really help?

More to the point, would the phantom investor who lurks on Canes Country please deposit a $100 M check with Peter Karmanos? I am not authorized to speak for Bob or the rest of the Canes Country staff, but I feel certain they'd be willing to throw in special posting privileges and make a home in a Canes-centric aquarium for a fish named after you.

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they’d be willing to throw in special posting privileges and make a home in a Canes-centric aquarium for a fish named after you.

LOL! No problem here.

PS I’ll read this more closely later, but this looks pretty cool.

Twitter @HMof2

by Carolyn Christians on Nov 30, 2010 7:57 PM EST reply actions  

Well Now

I don’t think you left anything out on this post….Very Very good…..we thank you…

The moment you write off the Hurricanes,
they make you look bad !!

by CaniacSteve on Nov 30, 2010 9:02 PM EST reply actions  

We need to trade Samsonov and Tlusty. Make room for Boychuk and Dalpe.

Boychuk – Staal – Cole
Jokinen – Ruutu – Skinner
Dalpe – Sutter – LaRose
Brodie – Carter – Dwyer

by Gr8dan on Nov 30, 2010 11:08 PM EST reply actions  

or waive them, I like those lines with one slight change: flip Cole and Jokinen.

by Go_Shelf on Dec 1, 2010 8:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I want to see Boychuk and Dalpe but still have big hopes for Tlusty

He’s 22 years old, he’s got good size that the Canes need, used to have outstanding speed and should again, is defensively responsible, and has done some pretty remarkable scoring for a guy his age. He’s missed time due to controversy and injury, but he’s definitely had his moments despite everything.

How many guys have scored 5 goals in an AHL game? Certainly no other Canes’ prospect that I know of. He was a point-a-game player in the AHL at age 20, scoring 25 goals and 41 assists in 66 games. Remember the goal he scored on his first shift with the Canes when he and Sutter flew down the ice and Sutter put the puck on his stick? (Tlusty doesn’t move nearly that fast now—it has to be the ACL surgery.) Tlusty also scored two goals in his first NHL game with the Leafs in 2007. There are a lot of indications that he could turn into a very good and versatile NHL forward—big enough and skilled enough for a variety of roles, defensively responsible and yet a scoring threat.

The Canes have only had Tlusty for one year and he had a major injury that cost him the whole preseason. We probably won’t see him at his best until next season if the Canes still have the rights. I think he’s pulling his weight on the 4th line and fits right in with those other big forwards. He’s not hurting the Canes now and he might help a lot in the future. Also, he’s 10 years younger than Samsonov so he fits the rebuilding program. If it comes to that, I’d rather see LaRose or Dwyer go than Tlusty. They’re both good but they’re older, smaller and less talented than he is. When he’s their age, he could be a much more valuable NHL player.

by curiouscanesfan on Dec 1, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

In fact, I should have listed Tlusty with the other prospects who’ve already made the Canes’ roster. I’ve been trying to figure out how to edit the post to include him. He’s a month younger than McBain. I just missed his birth date when scanning the roster.

by curiouscanesfan on Dec 1, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Cole – Ruutu – Skinner

Thanks for a great post……..it seems brighter days are coming for sure but the road to glory is a long and dry one, or at least from where I see it. We’ll get there…roll Canes roll

by littlepig on Dec 1, 2010 10:29 AM EST reply actions  

Exactly what I've been saying.

These kids are not four-year college vets or 28-year-old journeymen. They’re dominating against players their own age and players who are significantly older and more experienced. We’re going to see several additions to the top of our club in the next few years, and if we’re patient, it’ll be a hell of a ride.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 1, 2010 2:11 PM EST reply actions  

Yes it will! And you’re dead on when you say “if we’re patient”. I’m all for giving the kids a full year in the AHL. Let them dominate there and then come up next season or the tail end of this one.

Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.

by C-Leaguer on Dec 1, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s a really interesting question which develops good prospects faster. They have to break into the NHL at some point, and some prospects can do it if given the chance and time on ice on a line that’s right for their skills. Others can’t break into the NHL after substantial time and good results in the AHL.

The Canes seem to want almost all their prospects to prove themselves in 6 minutes TOI on the 4th line. It’s all about puck battles, tenacity, endurance, proving in a smattering of time on a grinding line that you deserve substantially more time on a scoring line. That approach doesn’t work and it seems to be part of PM’s credo. You must prove you deserve time on Staal’s line by never attempting to do one extremely important thing that you would have to do on Staal’s line, which is score. Then there’s all the line shuffling which prevents prospects from developing any chemistry with Canes’ teammates. So yeah, if that’s what NHL ice time means for Canes’ prospects, they’re better off in the AHL or the KHL or the Roller Derby or the Foreign Legion.

There’s a lot to be said for getting substantial ice time and playing in all situations on an AHL team. There is a real chance to hone skills and refine team play. The trouble is that the competition isn’t at the same level as in the NHL so you can only take your skills so far. Then you go back up to the Canes and get thrown back onto the 4th line, playing in a totally different way in a different role against better opponents. Even if you’re like Boychuk and set up goals for Brind’Amour and Kostopolous and Bowman and catch Ovechkin from behind on a breakaway, you don’t ever really get a chance to play sustained minutes on a scoring line. The Canes don’t seem to believe in developing NHL forwards in the NHL unless they have no other choice, as in Skinner’s case. Promotion to the Canes isn’t to help you play at your top level in your long-term NHL role as soon as possible. It’s a rite of passage. You wait until enough guys get traded or hurt that PM is forced to let you play.

So it’s not really comparing development in the AHL with development in the NHL. It’s comparing development in the AHL against inferior competition to nondevelopment in the NHL in brief spurts against superior competition. Meanwhile, the Canes’ rights to these prospects tick away and the Canes still don’t know what their prospects are going to be able to do in the NHL.

Last year when AD talked about how great one of the lines looked in Albany and how he’d like to see that line in Raleigh—I think it was Boychuk-Dalpe-Osala, but I could be wrong—I thought that might be exactly how the Canes could develop their prospects faster. The line would arrive with plenty of issues to overcome against NHL competition, but there would be chemistry and they would know how to play together in all situations. The Canes could challenge the line to take on a significant role while career 4th liners play 4th line. You’d need an epidemic of Canes’ injuries to clear room for a whole line, but those epidemics happen.

Given how PM handles forward prospects, I agree that the prospects are probably better off in Charlotte. But I don’t think the Canes are better off with them in Charlotte. This is a major reason why I think PM is the wrong coach for the Canes. If they’re going to rebuild through the draft and keep PM as coach, they have to draft all 4th liners and major talents like Skinner. PM’s approach dooms every player whose talent falls in between. If they want to turn the Canes into a better, younger team as fast as possible, they need to dispense with 4th line purgatory for talented offensive prospects.

by curiouscanesfan on Dec 1, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

"The line would arrive with plenty of issues to overcome against NHL competition"

So you’re saying you want our young players called up and set up for failure? I don’t think that’s the way to grow a successful player.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Platooning

As I have said before, keep 23 guys and platoon. If it’s a whole line (the 4th, sometimes) that you rest/put in the game, that would be really interesting (reminds me of the way Dean Smith used to sub an entire set of five).

When the Canes won the cup, they rolled four lines, they didn’t use a fourth line five minutes a game.

by LewPuls1 on Dec 4, 2010 8:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but they weren't playing them much more.

LaRose, Ladd, and Craig Adams all got around 9 minutes a game. For the sake of reference, that’s almost exactly what Carter, Tlusty, and O’Sullivan averaged as Hurricanes this year, and Koustopolis was getting almost 11. Hardly like they split time evenly.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 4, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Look at Staal.

He went from a 31-point, -8 scorer in the NHL to a 100-point scorer two years in the middle. What was in between? A full year of dominance in the (stronger than usual) AHL.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I see your point, but it doesn’t always work out that way. A really good year in the AHL doesn’t necessarily predict making it in the NHL. It worked out great for Staal but Staal would have been great no matter what they did with him. It was a question of how soon.

by curiouscanesfan on Dec 2, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

You could also look at Bobby Ryan in Anaheim.

In 07/08, he spent 48 games in the AHL and had 49 points. He was brought up to the NHL for 23 games and had 10 points.

In 08/09, he spent 14 games in the AHL and had 19 points. He was brought up to the NHL for 64 games and had 57 points (including 31 goals).

Maybe the situation is similar for a player like Boychuk. He got some time in the NHL last season and wasn’t overly impressive, but maybe he could make the jump now and have a big impact. Who knows, each player is different.

If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!

by PackPride17 on Dec 2, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Different story.

Ryan was already a dominant player in the AHL (over a point a game.) Boychuck was a good player last year in the minors, but not as good as Ryan was his first year, nor is he as good a player this year as Ryan was in his second.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I just want to get some of the kids experience because I don’t want to be going through this again next season. I believe with some NHL experience this season, next season will be better. I also believe that if we leave them in the AHL to dominate all year, then next season will be a bigger learning curve for them because the talent level is so different from AHL to NHL. I guess I say let them learn on the job.

If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!

by PackPride17 on Dec 2, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I've never said that I think they absolutely have to stay down all year.

In fact, I’d be shocked if it happened. But I don’t think they’re really losing anything by being down at this point, and in fact, they may be gaining something.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

But my opinion is they could be gaining something at the NHL level. Experience against better competition could go a long way. But I do see the other side that says they can gain confidence in the AHL.

If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!

by PackPride17 on Dec 3, 2010 8:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Don’t discredit the AHL. It’s I think much improved over where it was years ago. The competition their, especially in the division the Checkers play in which includes WB/S, Hershey, and Norfolk, is very good. I also think it helps that the Canes have their own affiliate that they control. When they used to split affiliates I think it made sense to get guys up sooner because why do you want them learning another teams system? With their own affiliate their players are learning the Canes system all the while refining their game and shoring up the fundamentals.

Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.

by C-Leaguer on Dec 3, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not discrediting it, but I do believe young players can also learn from playing in the NHL.

If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!

by PackPride17 on Dec 3, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Boychuk/Dalpe/Osala and Developing Forwards

   I did mention last year that Boychuk/Dalpe/Osala were the best line on the ice in all of the Albany Rats’ playoff games. This season the Boychuk/Dalpe combination again have been the best two forwards on the ice virtually every game thus far. The Checkers coaches seem to be using Boychuk/Dalpe/Osala almost exclusively on the power play even though all three are excellent. During one game the Boychuk/Dalpe/Bowman line came out on some power plays as I recall and not surprisingly they were impressive.

   Although Boychuk/Dalpe I think have the most overall chemistry, I noted some shifts with Boychuk/Nash/Bowman and that line was an impact line. This training camp to me was an example how putting young talented forwards on a fourth line doesn’t really tell the coaches much one way or another. It does provide information on a players’ consistency of effort and battle for the pucks over a five to eight minute period; but the way the fourth lines were constituted it was all but useless for players who are playmakers and scorers. Kostopoulos would never be paired with Boychuk other than in some weird fantasy hockey NHL 2011 game. It would have made far more sense to put the Boychuk/Dalpe/Bowman line together and put them out on the ice for at least three games where they played at least 8 to 10 minutes. You’d immediately know which players needed more work; and which players were ahead on the learning curve.

    There were some technical issues, I thought, with Boychuk’s game that were going to require some time on the ice for him to viscerally understand the difference between the NHL and his former life. I see the same thing with young point guards in the ACC. Playmakers and scorers in hockey, point guards in basketball, quarterbacks in football, attackmen in lacrosse all have to learn how to slow the game down in their brain while increasing the speed of their decision-making. They also have to learn how to expand their peripheral vision. My observation is that sometimes very competitive players who are fast tend to get too focused and their field of vision contracts. It’s both a born talent and a learned skill.

   In any event, I think is there is a modified approach to the present approach that would be relatively painless and I’ve mentioned it in several posts. The Canes could and should bring up Boychuk and Dalpe. Put together a line say of Dalpe/Carter/Bodie and then double shift Staal. You’d see then Dalpe/Staal/Bodie on the fourth line for some shifts. One then could have a game where the fourth line is Boychuk/Carter/Bodie and then double shift Staal. If the Canes get a 3 goal lead in any of those games create a line of Boychuk/Staal/Dalpe and then them play together for the remainder of that game. Even as good as Staal is, if he were given Sullivan and Kostopoulos for five minutes a game as his linemates, he probably wouldn’t look like one of the top five centers in the NHL.

    I think there are a couple of factors influencing the decision-making of whom is still down at Charlotte. The first factor and most important is the fact the Hurricanes are a low budget team. Without being harsh, the truth is they have no reason to play Samsonov over Boychuk, Dalpe, or Bowman other than the fact they don’t want to sit Samsonov with this $2.8 salary. I doubt if the Hurricanes had the budget to spend at the salary cap that Samsonov would still be on the team. Again, it isn’t that Samsonov is wretched; but on a person to person, player to player competition, he is the last chosen among Boychuk, Dalpe, Bowman, and Samsonov. Similarly, Carson, Rodney, or Sanguinetti, when healthy, are better choices than Harrison. Harrison made the intelligent decision to sign a one way contract. Carson and his agent took a chance and didn’t sign the one way contract he was offered. As a result, Carson is riding buses and Harrison is at the big show. Again, I am not saying Harrison is not an nhl quality #6 defenseman. He has played good, if not spectacular, consistent hockey. Other teams exploit his lack of speed and lack of mental processing speed when they can, but other times he makes excellent defensive plays. On the other hand, in a talent competition among Carson, Rodney, Sanguinetti, and Harrison, Harrison is the last player chosen even though Rodney and Sanguinetti are not stay at home defensemen.

    The other factor is that the Hurricanes are making a commitment to patience with their prospects. It’s frustrating to watch the kids in Charlotte and to know in my heart of hearts that they are superior talent to some players in Raleigh. It is clear, however, that the Canes organization has concluded the young players will be better served long term and therefore the Canes organization will be better served long term to let them get AHL seasoning under the guidance and coaching of Daniels, Brind’Amour, Wesley, and when available Francis. Daniels really does excellent work with young players and seems to know how to push/challenge/train them without making them lose their belief in their abilities.

   I think it is a fair question to ask whether Maurice/Francis/Rowe/Barrasso are the right coaches to help young players develop. I’ve given it much thought and can’t say I have positive proof yet of what I think; but what I concluded is that the team coaching approach is working and will work; but that it is not the fastest way to train the young prospects. It is, however, probably the safest and most conservative way to train young players. It seems to be modeled after Detroit where prospects are retained in the AHL until they are far more than NHL ready. I find tremendous hope in the approach they’ve taken with Skinner because they recognized he was something special and they have pretty much stayed out of his way and let him romp.

   If I were a consultant for the Canes, and thankfully for them and everybody else I am not, I would have a heart to heart with the young forwards and I’d use a movie producer to create contrasting documentaries side by side of shifts showing them at the end of shifts and Skinner at the end of shifts. I’d ask them, if you were a coach, who would you play, the guy who is battling to get pucks that seem hopelessly out of reach, only to have that extra effort result in a puck possession, or you out of gas? I’d then have videos of them doing their best work.

   

   

by abramsdoug on Dec 2, 2010 7:04 AM EST reply actions  

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