Are The Carolina Hurricanes "Rebuilding" And Are They Doing It Right?
by Bob Wage on Dec 1, 2010 2:30 PM EST
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There was a bit of a discussion here yesterday about whether or not the Carolina Hurricanes were truly in a rebuilding mode. The term has been thrown around a lot and has even been used occasionally by team management. But the word can mean different things to different people.
The literal meaning of the word, according to Dictionary.com, is to repair, to dismantle and reassemble, to replace, restrengthen, reinforce, revise, reshape, or to reorganize.
Some rebuilds are full scale and start right from the top. But Carolina management and the coaching staff are not going anywhere, anytime soon. A few fans might say that there is not a true rebuild in process unless the direction and guidance of the team is changed.
Looking at the roster, if you compare the team from the beginning of last season, to this season, there have certainly been a lot of changes. Gone are Aaron Ward, Stephane Yelle, Andrew Alberts, Niclas Wallin, Matt Cullen, Rod Brind`Amour, Ray Whitney, and Scott Walker. The team went from being one of the oldest in the league, to being one of the youngest.
But if you compare the roster from the end of last season, to now, have there been many significant changes?
The majority of the forwards, (who get the most playing time), are back. Eric Staal, Erik Cole, Sergei Samsonov, Chad LaRose, Brandon Sutter, Patrick Dwyer, Jussi Jokinen, and Tuomo Ruutu were all here last year. The one major change has been Jeff Skinner in place of Ray Whitney.
On defense, Joe Corvo, Joni Pitkanen, Tim Gleason, and Jay Harrison all return. Jamie McBain played some last year, but he probably should be considered part a rebuild since he is new and is a rookie. Ian White is a fresh face, but his contract will be up at the end of the year. Which leads to another question.
It would seem that a legitimate rebuild would be considered a long term project. Can new players with one-year contracts, (not RFA's), be considered as being a part of a rebuild, when chances are they will be gone the following year?
Some teams perform a rebuild using the draft and some use free agency. Some use a combination of both. The most successful teams seem to need the presence of a key free agent or two, (or key trade), to help put them over the top.
The Blackhawks are well known for their outstanding rebuild through their draft, but they also signed Marian Hossa and Brian Campbell to huge contracts. When the the Penguins won the Cup, they had signed Bill Guerin and Sergei Gonchar. A couple of years back, the Flyers finished out of the playoffs but then went out and obtained Kimmo Timonen, Scott Hartnell, and Danny Briere. All were key to their rebuild.
Perhaps the age of player is negligable in a rebuild, as long as they are a fresh face and have longer than a one year contract?
This brings us back to the Hurricanes. It might be difficult to claim that the Canes are actually rebuilding unless there have been significant changes. Depending upon how one looks at it, and from what time period, there has been little change on the team from the end of last year, to the beginning of this one.
And what about some of the players in Charlotte? Zac Dalpe, Zach Boychuk, Drayson Bowman, Riley Nash, Bobby Sanguinetti, and maybe a couple of others are probably in the long range plans of the organization. While they are growing, learning, and gaining valuable experience in the AHL, are they considered as part of the Carolina rebuild?
Would the Canes still be considered rebuilding once these players make the jump to the NHL? If the team is truly rebuilding right now, should these players be in Raleigh sooner rather than later?
Let's throw out a couple more questions.
How long should a rebuild process last? Can a team rebuild and compete for the playoffs simultaneously?
A very important two to three months is coming up for this franchise. Eventually, team management will have to make a decision whether to cut ties with some veteran players before the trade deadline, or make a genuine push for the playoffs.
So far Jim Rutherford has done an exemplary job of improving the team short term, without any long term consequence. But if the team is in the playoff hunt come March, it will be tempting to add a key player or two. Usually those acquisitions are expensive and that could disrupt the rebuild process.
The proof will be in the proverbial pudding once we come to deadline day. If Rutherford trades one or more of the players who are at the end of their contracts, for assets, (Samsonov, Cole, LaRose, Pitkanen, Jokinen, or White), then the rebuild is officially on. But if the GM stays at status quo and keeps those vets in the lineup while Carolina's future stays in Charlotte, is the team truly rebuilding?
What do you think? Is the team in true rebuilding mode right now? How long of a process should it take?
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Wow Bob, you must really want a heated discussion in this thread! :)
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
I don’t think they are in a full fledged rebuild…yet. The core of the team is the exact same as last year. Until they shed the “dead weight” and bring in the prospects, I won’t say they are in a rebuild. Once the young kids are on the team, then yeah, they are rebuilding.
I just think saying we are rebuilding this year is a convenient excuse, like “it’s a young team”. It’s the same team really as last year and only 1 player is in his first pro season.
I havent really jumped in on this, so heres my take. Yes this is a rebuild. The Canes are fortunate that the foundation does not need to be rebuilt. The key pillars of this team are still very young and have a long career still ahead of them. Staal, Sutter, Gleason, and Ward. Skinner has surely played his way into “pillar” status as well. The rebuild is gonna take a little time, and JR is very smartly keeping the team competitive while it happens. The youngsters cant come up now because players like Samsonov, LaRose, etc. cant be sent down. People are clamoring for a trade right now!, ship Sammy out and lets get Boychuk up!…..well its not that easy. Not many teams are simply gonna take on Samsonovs salary for nothing, and any trade at this point would be foolish. Most players value is at their lowest at this point in the season. Holding on to these expiring contracts till the absolute last minute, this seasons trade deadline, is the only correct way to approach this. Stay in the hunt, like we are now, trade Samsonov, LaRose, maybe a prospect or something, at the deadline to stack up another solid draft, and at that point unleash Boychuk, Dalpe, Bowman, Carson, etc. to go on a nice streak the last month or so and lock up a 7th spot. All rebuilds are not created equal, and our rebuild may not look like Chicagos, it may not look like Edmontons either! But this, in my opinion, is a full on rebuild.
another thing to add to this, with all the talent in charlotte, when the trade deadline rolls around, we will be in the unique position of being sellers while still being in the playoff hunt! The unique position of possibly making the playoffs, while still holding a lot of draft picks!
That’s a really good idea I had not thought of. The Canes could still be sellers and try to make the playoffs with the young kids. Best of both worlds.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
I’ve always thought this would be where JR would be on the UFA issue.
Good asset management demands that something be obtained for most of them, regardless of how important their role seems to be on the existing team.
Making the playoffs is important for the revenue aspect, even if only for two home games, but this is hardly the year we go for the Cup. We’ll be lucky to serve as opening round playoff fodder for one of the elites.
So, no need to hang onto players, in my opinion, only to watch them walk out the door in late April. Trade ’em and take your chances with the playoffs with the replacements from Charlotte, would be my preference.
Here we are now...entertain us.
I agree
If we are going to really try to make a run with the youngsters, let them get as much time in the NHL as possible. I do, however, see value in holding a few cards until they increase in value. This is a risk though. We cannot be sure how the tradables will fare until we unload and whether they gain or lose value. It think JR is pretty prudent and is shrewd on his timing etc….
2 years to the Cup
The one drawback of that, though...
The better you do, the less likely your picks are to have a quick NHL impact because you’re drafting lower in a round. Another reason I don’t want to trade future assets for a marginal upgrade from, say, #9 to #8 for a quick first-round exit, or even from #8 to #6 so we can lose in seven rather than four.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
I think you hit the nail on the head with this post Bob. I think a lot of differing opinions come out about this due to people having a different perspective on what they think a ‘rebuild’ is.
I, personally, will say that when more than one of the prospects are playing more than just 4th line roles then we are rebuilding. I’m not for throwing any of them on the top line as some have suggested but I’d like to see some of the young guys in Charlotte be brought up to play on the second or third line, getting some significant minutes and gauging where some of these kids stand against NHLers.
As crowded as our forward lines are already – I find that will be hard to do much of anything until the trade deadline comes and we part ways with two or more folks whose contracts are up at the end of the year.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.
I will say that I believe everything around the team screams that they are in a rebuild and they have done an exceptional job of obtaining prospects and assets. I just have a hard time buying the ‘youth’ and ’we’re rebuilding’ excuses that pop up after a loss. Like stated in the post – this is very similar to the same team that finished off the season so well last year.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.
That team that finished off the end of the season so well last year was also eliminated from the playoffs early in the season which meant that didn’t get most teams best shots and they could play without worries. Many of us said it was a false indication of the talent of the team at that time.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
REBUILDING THE HURRICANES
Jim Rutherford has begun the rebuilding process without a doubt in my mind. The process is well underway. The question always comes down the roster and that always comes down to lines. The Canes have an excellent core team:
Staal, Sutter, Skinner, Ruutu, Cole, Jokinen at forward.
Gleason, Corvo, Pitkanen, and McBain on defense.
I think Samsonov would be traded today if Jim Rutherford could trade him. Similarly, I think Jim Rutherford would trade Harrison today if he could. A very difficult issue is how Jim Rutherford will deal with re-signing LaRose. I think after much deliberation, LaRose will be traded; and if so, it will be a sad day for the Hurricanes organization, the team, the coaches and the fans. My guess is that White and Pitkanen are not going to be traded.
As has been discussed in a number of different posts, the Hurricanes improved the fourth line with the addition of Carter and Bodie; as well as with the acquisition. By next season, Boychuk, Dalpe, and Bowman should be on the Hurricanes roster, which as stated means to me that the subtractions from the present roster are Samsonov, LaRose, and probably Tlusty. Life will get even more challenging for the Canes forwards if in the 2011 draft, the Hurricanes pick a player such as Landeskog, Ambroz, or Saad and if that pick makes the team straight out of training camp.
On defense, the issue is going to be how to find a big, aggressive, fast defenseman; however, a player such as Carson could help the team.
defense
I bet we don’t keep both White and Pitkanen. McBain should turn into a top for Dman, and he will be cheaper than White or Pits. One of them is gone. Honestly, if we had a terrific top four, why not keep big Harrison around to be a cheap #6. He isnt always atrocious. I bet next year will be Corvo/Gleason, White/McBain, Harrison/Carson/Rodney. We will still be in need of a bigger top four defenseman, and if we can find him, White and Pits will be gone. All this assumes a quick development from McBain.
If this is our D..... big trouble
If you think that is our D for next year we are in big trouble.
Joni has a unique style of play but he is much better than many give him credit for. If you put him on any other team with a solid top 4 D-man as a partner, you have someone who will get you 10 to 15 goals and 40+ assists every year while not hurting you defensively. To play his game you need to partner him with someone he trusts so he can use his natural offensive instincts. He is a deceptively quick skater and if he can step up his physical play ( he is a big guy) and shoot more his game puts him in the upper echelon of defenceman ( not elite).
McBain has yet to prove to me that he is top 4. White got owned by the big Dallas forwards on Monday and that concerns me. Carson and Rodney are 5/6 type D. And while it is not popular to knock Tim his game has been way off so far this year. Hope it is just short term injury related but too often he is flat footed, reaching, making bad pinches and a step slow in his own end. That better change or else we don’t have a top 4 shut down D.
We have some big talented defenseman in Juniors and College but it is always tough for big guys to make that transition right into the NHL.
So if you think Joni is going to be gone then we better be looking to trade for a top D and they are at a real premium. In my opinion you can always find a White type D in the off season as a free agent. But guys like Joni will draw real interest so we need to start thinking about how we sign him and then get that D-man that compliments him. Much like finding a winger for Staal…. to me this is a top priority.
Like I said, alot depends on McBain’s development. I feel like he will be at least as good as Corvo by next year.
I like Pitkanen, he is a great player, but we won’t keep him and Ian White, and I think we all know who will stay for less money.
Like I said, one of our glaring needs is a large top four D man. I’d let Pits and White walk if we could find a big, mobile guy to take the place.
Re-Sign Joni
Don’t you think it would just be easier to re-sign Joni. Where are we going to find this big mobile D man that every other club isn’t already looking for and bidding on. I think JR needs to scrap his “don’t like contract negotiations mid season” policy and get it done before he hits the open market.
Pitkanen
I think Jim Rutherford is well aware that the cost of trying to find and replace Pitkanen vastly exceeds the cost of re-signing him. In the end, I think if the choice comes down to affording Pitkanen or affording LaRose, LaRose will be traded or re-signed. Similarly, as important as Cole is to the team, and I think a healthy Cole is extremely important, if the cost of re-signing Pitkanen means that Cole is traded or not re-signed, I think that will happen as well. I think of the process as ensuring that the most difficult player to replace is re-signed first. LaRose’s skill sets are the least difficult to find an alternative to replace him. Cole’s skill sets hard to find an alternative to find to replace him, but Dalpe and Bowman are available and would be fine for filling a similar role if necessary. Pitkanen’s skill sets are virtually impossible to replace. A GM could spend a decade trying to find the right defenseman that is available and affordable.
I agree. I too think Rutherford spent a decade trying to find and land Pitkanen. Unless Rutherford for some strange reason decides it would be a big hoot to spend another ten years of his life trying to land another Pitkanen, I think logic dictates Jim Rutherford will move heaven and earth to re-sign Pitkanen.
I like Pitkanen, but he is not a game-breaking defenseman. He is very good, but he is not irreplaceable. I think White, for example, is not dissimilar. Pitkanen might have size, but he doesnt play big at all.
Who would you suggest as an available defenseman to replace Pitkanen that would be less expensive and would eat up the TOI of Pitkanen?
It depends on what the team does… like I said, I think White can handle a lot of minutes, he did last year. If McBain turns into a real quality player, then there is another option. I had a fantasy there for a minute that we might chase Marc Staal for the role as well, but obviously not.
What is clear now is that we have at least one too many offensive defensemen. Two of them are on expiring contracts. Some fool GM will throw north of 5 million at Joni on the open market. The Canes don’t have that kind of money.
I’d think of the situation as using the #1 rule of rock climbing: keep holding what you got until you have a better hold to go to. With Pitkanen, I think that rule will apply as well. Unless Jim Rutherford has another player he knows he can get who is comparable or unless the market/Pitkaken go dollar crazy (which I doubt would happen but anything is possible when GMs start a feeding frenzy), I predict Pitkanen is re-signed.
What if the hold starts charging $5 a minute and you didn't bring your wallet?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
White and Joni interchangeable?
So you think that any GM in the league would trade Pitkanen straight up for White?!
The hockey writers in TO would all break into hilarious laughter…. probably right before the GM got fired.
BTW
Btw. So far this year Joni is +5 and White is -13.
Don’t get me wrong. I like White. But Joni just turned 27 and big guys just hit their prime around now. He gobbles up a lot of minutes and still has the potential to be a top 2 defenceman. I’d say so far his has only tapped his talent and potential.
Ian has had to claw to his way to where he is now. He is undersized but makes the most of his size and talent. In my opinion he has reached his potential which at best is a the second pairing and on a lot of teams in the league he’d be at best the 5th or 6th guy.
I am saying that, yes, when you factor in cost, they are interchangeable. Last year White had 38 points, +8 overall. Pitkanen 46 points, -11. White is a year younger.
What team would White possibly be a sixth defenseman on?
by prplmnkydw on Dec 1, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t see White any differently than Pitkanen. When Pitkanen finishes off his great year, he will likely have priced himself out of the Canes budget as a pending UFA. If White played amazingly, he would do the same thing. If he played so-so or bad, do we really think he is still the answer to the top-4?
And I don’t subscribe this whole “Well, we get an extra month to negotiate with him in June” BS. When have the Canes ever re-signed a pending UFA during the season? Just like Whitney, Cullen, and almost every single other pending UFA before him, every UFA will be given a chance to test the waters if that is what they want to do.
Both Defenders I would guess are likely to be heavily shopped at the deadline.
I would agree that both will be shopped...
But for the sake of the team, I think only one will actually be traded.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
This, a million times over.
Let’s not pretend that +/- numbers over a third of a season on (for the most part) vastly different teams are some kind of definitive determiner of the better player between the two.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
It would certainly depend on the contracts and the state of the team.
If Pitkanen gets an offer for $7 mil, it won’t matter how much we want him, we just can’t spend that much on another guy and field a competitive roster around him.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
$5 mil?
When a guy like Paul Martin can get that, I feel like Pitkanen can easily exceed that on the open market.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
That's a two-way street.
Pitkanen would have to have no desire to explore the FA market, and as good as he is (in general and relative to this FA market), that’s probably not likely.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
I would still love to find someway to get Tuebert from LA (thanks Ray!). I believe he could come in and play a 3rd pairing role next season and allow Timmy to get back to playing his game. Tuebert also has top 4 potential, so if he develops accordingly; we could find ourselves with a good defensive defenseman.
Make it happen JR! :)
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
Cole for Tuebert and a Second at the deadline? Think LA wants Cole for the playoffs?
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
...because Go_Shelf said so!
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Based on past history and what he’s said in the media. At the earliest he won’t do anything until January.
Money is going to be a limiting factor too. The ownership is trying to keep payroll low to bring in an investor. I’m sure JR could have given a guaranteed fourth with better escalation conditions than LA gave for Sturm, but that flies in the face of everything that the team has been trying to do. To keep the costs down of any acquisitions JR is going to hold off. He already took on money in the Bodie/Carter/White/Sutter deals and it’s not very likely he’ll take on more.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
The interest Pitkanen gathers is one of the main reasons we should shop him to the highest bidder.
The truth of the matter is that somebody’s likely to make him an offer this summer that we can’t match, whether they have to overpay to do so or not. Rather than lose him for nothing, we should get some future assets for him to be able to at least try and replace him going forward.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Just remember...
A trade at the deadline doesn’t mean Chad is gone forever.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Unfinished
I think the team has tried to rebuild on the fly ever since 2007 or so. We are part way there, but still lack a few key cogs. Most teams lean heavy on six forwards and three or for D. We have maybe four of those forwards (Staal, Skinner, Jokinen, Ruutu), and maybe three D (Gleason, Corvo, and one of Pitkanen or White, whoever stays) What we lack:
Second line center: Let’s be honest, Sutter is more of a third-line center, at least on a contending team (our Cup-winning centers were Brindy, Staal, Cullen, Weight, all of whom are stronger players than Sutter, at least at this stage). Maybe Dalpe can be this guy in the next couple of years.
First line winger: Staal is great, Jokinen a good compliment. We need one more first line, and it is in all likelihood Skinner, but of course he is still developing. Maybe Bowman or Boychuk too, but I’d honestly be shocked if either of them turn into first line caliber NHLers.
- Defenseman: We need one more stay-at-home type to compliment Gleason. One of either White or Pitkanen are gone this year, probably replaced by McBain. Corvo/Gleason, McBain/?
weird
That “1. Defenseman” should read #4 defenseman
I will agree, but probably not in the way you expect.
The team is learning how a team must operate financially as a small-market team in a salary cap league. The smartest and most effective way to do so is by leaning on the principles of efficient cost allocation and asset management. If you’re not going to have the kind of money that other teams do, you must spend the money you do have effectively and get the most bang for your buck possible. The biggest place that happens (and the place the Canes have made the most improvement) is the draft. Those are the cheapest players you can find in the league, and if you can get relatively similar production out of a guy on an entry-level deal in your system or available via trade (say, Troy Bodie) as you can a guy making twice as much (Kostopoulos), you have to make that move. Can our mythical first-line winger show up via free agency? Possibly, but it is much more likely they’d show up through the draft, where we don’t have to spend so much of our budget on them. See: Skinner, Jeff.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Agree, but the problem is you have to finish out of the playoffs for multiple years to get those really good draft picks The struggle right now for a lot of teams are putting on the bargain basement bandaids that never really turn out. Unless your team is full of rookies on entry level contracts in which case you’ve had to tank the past couple of season. There is a slight correlation between what you spend and where you end up.
I disagree.
You can certainly find solid players without picking in the top three every year. Skinner came at #7, Sutter #11, Dalpe was #45, McBain #63, Bowman in the 3rd. Hell Mike Murphy (who I think can be a solid long-term backup, if not eventual trade fodder as a starting-caliber guy) came as a sixth-rounder! In fact, two very high picks, Ladd and Jack Johnson, were two of the biggest disappointments.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
I’d agree with you (especially on Mike Murphy). I think the caliber players coming out today combined with solid scouting as the Canes have shown in the past few Drafts, it is possible to nab an NHL ready steal even out of the top-10 or 12. Look at Cam Fowler, he belongs in the NHL right now and went 12th Overall.
I can’t see us being a powerhouse Playoff team and I assume we will collect a lot of assets before the Draft as this is a self-proclaimed rebuilding year. I think if the Canes really wanted, they wouldn’t hesitate to trade up in the Draft to get a possible NHL ready D. JR said himself they tried pretty hard to get Cam Fowler after picking up Skinner.
but in terms of probability of getting an impact player, after you get past the 6th pick the scale starts to slide, once you get past the 26th pick you have very little chance you’re going to find a roster player. Copper N Blue did a write-up on the data associated with drafting players and how likely you’re going to find an impact player, it was a very compelling. There are gems in every draft but the likelihood the Canes are going to find one every year is unrealistic. Dalpe, McBain, Bowman, Murphy haven’t really proved much in the NHL so it’s a little too early to call them slam dunks. Ladd and Johnson may have been disappointments with Canes but they are both key components to where they play now, so I put more blame on mgmt for their failure.
It's not about failure.
It’s about patience. If you give all of our first-rounders as long as it took Ladd to be successful, I’m sure they’ll do a lot better than declaring them busts by the time they’re 21 and not scoring a point a game in the NHL.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Was it the Canes gave up too early on Ladd or was he coached up in Chicago and became the player he is today because of that? Just a question.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
Well...
He wasn’t the player in Chicago he is today, so that’s certainly hard to say. But he’s consistently been improving throughout his career. That’s what most players do regardless of who’s coaching them. He’s still very young (25.)
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
He also had some injury issues here in Carolina. The Ladd for Ruutu trade was in many ways about bringing in a better player (Ruutu) now for another ones potential (Ladd).
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
I agree.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 3, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
the NHL is a result oriented business so it’s probably unfair to deem a 21 year old a bust if he’s not scoring a point a game, but based on other top 5 picks I can understand a teams inpatience with a player. Having said that, we’d probably be better off if he stayed.
Timelines
They didn’t give up on Ladd. But remember he joined the roster for the Cup run and was around for the aftermath. Veteran team that really needed another power forward that could hit.
They tried to get that out of Ladd, but he was a bit young then for the part he plays so well now.
So, they simply adjusted the timetable of the asset to Now instead of Future with the trade for Ruutu. Still RFA at the time, but much further along on the development curve and the hitter they were seeking.
For Chicago, that was still building, it made sense to go younger with their power forward asset and let him mature, which was just what he needed. Patience.
Same principle in the Paradis for Tlusty trade. Activate the asset now, obtaining a NHL-ready RFA asset for a prospect that Toronto could tuck away in its rebuilding program.
Here we are now...entertain us.
Maybe...
But Ruutu has been invaluable to this team’s successes as a Hurricane in ways that Ladd just wasn’t ready to.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Ruutu versus Ladd
Ruutu was a sea change for the Hurricanes. I think anybody who was at the RBC when he came running on to the ice and saw that game will never forget the experience. Ruutu brings energy, physicality, character, and charisma. I read a few posts where people questioned whether Ruutu would be traded. I for one would be shocked to see this organization move Ruutu. He is too important to the team, the coaches, the organization, and the fans.
I really liked Ladd and felt Laviolette did a poor job with him. I preferred Ruutu and still do; but I admire what Ladd has done and am very pleased for his success. I feel there was more to the story about Ladd’s trade that we probably will never know; and I think there is more to the Laviolette story than we will ever know. What I did see was Laviolette had Ladd in the doghouse and it seemed there was little Ladd could do to work his way out.
Laviolette was hardly the only coach Ladd struggled under.
In his last year at juniors (post-drafting), he was mediocre at best, and he was also unspectacular under Savard and Quenneville in Chicago before he suddenly became a point-per-game scorer this year in Atlanta.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 3, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Unspectacular, maybe; but he was very solid in Chicago. You also have to look at his role on a very talented Chicago team as compared to a less talented Atlanta team. He gets a lot more PP time in Atlanta.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
And more time in general.
But it’s not like he saw some huge increase in TOI when he first left. Three or so minutes a game. He’s a solid player, but I wonder whether his next three years will look more like this year’s early returns or the two prior to them.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 3, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
As to what you spend...
Yes, I agree, spending more money increases your margin of error. However, since that’s a variable outside the organization’s control at this point, they have to focus on spending what they do have as efficiently as possible.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, but you have to admit it’s frustrating. PK made a conscious decision to not spend the money and imposed an artificial cap. I watched this in the 90’s with the Oilers and EIG group who simply didn’t have the money to spend.
Would you be willing to blow that many millions more of your own money?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
That’s a very difficult question to answer. To the majority of owners, this is more like a hobby/entertainment than a business. Of course they don’t want to lose money, but these guys generally have a lot more than say you or I. But I maybe “blow” a similar percentage to PK when I pay for multiple seat at a Canes game and they come out flat, getting blown out 8-1.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
But you're not choosing to buy those tickets as an investment opportunity.
That’s not a business decision. There’s no profit to be made off of attending a game. Running a team is different. The fact that a guy has millions probably means he didn’t get there by being willing to throw millions away.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
I said it was a difficult question to answer. But if he is just looking for a profit, he probably could sell the team. The value of the franchise is more than what he purchased it for (not sure about inflation though).
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
Are The Carolina Hurricanes “Rebuilding” And Are They Doing It Right?
Didn’t the rebuild start last year at the trade deadline? They are definitely rebuilding and so far so good. Only time will tell if they are doing it right but a Stanley Cup finals in 2002 and a Cup and Eastern Conf finals in 2006 & 2009 suggest the braintrust know what they are doing. “In Jim we Trust”
by Mullett on Dec 1, 2010 3:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
+1
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Make Over
Seems that at the moment it is more of a “makeover” than a rebuild. Bodie, Carter, McBain, Peters, Skinner, Tlusty and White all were not on the opening day roster last year. In fact even Sutter was not there on opening day.
I think there may have been some disappointment in the performance in some players during the preseason that resulted in the decision to give them some more seasoning in the AHL. The team had penciled in Boychuk and one of Bowman or Dalpe to be on the opening roster and maybe one other D. Nash was another forward that I believe they thought would have one of the center positions.
However this may all be a good thing. The younger players assigned to Charlotte are all starting to emerge as the front line players in the AHL and getting lots of ice time in various situations. JD runs the same systems as the Canes and I believe that JR is looking to see where the team at December and then we will see some moves.
JR will have a problem in moving Samsonov and it will be interesting to see what he does with LaRose and Pitkanen. I think that by the end of February, in the playoffs or not, that half of the players we finish with will not have been on last year’s opening roster. That qualifies as a “rebuild”.
Btw…. it seems some don’t agree but I think Dalpe will be a top 6 forward.
Oh I think Dalpe will be a top 6 forward. I’m even inclined to say he will be a top 6 wing, not a center. I think he has a real good future in the NHL. I don’t think All-Star, but a solid 60+ point guy.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
+3
Dalpe’s the real deal, which means we’ll probably lose him somehow…
"Mo Must Go...Unless You're in Love with .500 Hockey and Undeveloped Young Talent"
I think so
He seems promising, but nothing has happened yet.
Dalpe a top six forward
This group doesn’t agree on everything; and probably the truth be known, there is more we disagree with than on which we agree. Not much shocks me when it comes to the things over which there is disagreement; but it really would shock me to hear anybody seriously contend that Dalpe is not a top six forward for the Hurricanes. I think the only questions are whether will be a wing, as I think he will be, or a forward; and when will he be ready. From what I’ve seen, Dalpe is ready.
With respect to Boychuk, I really had disagreement with the assessment by the Canes organization that Boychuk wasn’t ready for prime time. I think the organization had a temporary infatuation with Patrick O’Sullivan and thought they could persuade him to play defense. I, too, thought logic would dictate O’Sullivan would be willing to hit and play defense. I think I was wrong. I think it would be easier to teach a mockingbird to stand silent on a fencepost than to convince Patrick O’Sullivan to use his body to separate a player from the puck. Eventually, the Canes organization decided, and I think correctly decided, that O’Sullivan needed to be on a team that didn’t require much defense or hitting.
Boychuk didn’t have a particularly bad training camp; but to my mind Dalpe and Bowman came to camp slightly more prepared physically and mentally to win a spot. It wasn’t a night and day difference, but the difference was enough that the eraser came out and Boychuk’s name on the roster was removed at the start of the season. Boychuk did show character by going to Charlotte and busting his chops.
I am convinced the Canes organization would trade Samsonov in a nanosecond if they could get any sort of prospect or draft choice back.
Nash, too, is going to make his presence felt by this season’s end, I predict.
by abramsdoug on Dec 1, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
With respect to Boychuk, I really had disagreement with the assessment by the Canes organization that Boychuk wasn’t ready for prime time. I think the organization had a temporary infatuation with Patrick O’Sullivan and thought they could persuade him to play defense.
I think Boychuk was more a factor of the roster than anything else. If he were on the big league team today, where would he play? Who would sit instead? Does Dwyer go down for Boychuk? Should Boychuk be playing in that spot that Dwyer’s in?
My $0.02 on the situation is that Boychuk is better off in the AHL right now. It’s not that he can’t play in the NHL, but the AHL gives him the better opportunity to hone his craft.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
I frankly think there are three or four guys who could outproduce Dwyer.
However, I wouldn’t want to lose Dwyer for nothing by trying to send him down. Further, as you mention, the guys down in Charlotte have chances to work on more parts of their game down there, which will mean more for us in the future.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Dalpe and Boychuk
I like him, he has great top six potential, hopefully as a center, where we need him (again, Sutter would be a third line center if we were a contender). But I don’t see how he is ready. Doing great in CLT, sure, but he has yet to do anything much in the big leagues (probably more due to Maurice than Dalpe).
On the other hand, I worry that boychuk is a flame-out, and will not develop as we would like. I hope I am wrong, but I don’t like his development curve so far.
There is no one to one correlation between the AHL and the NHL without a doubt. On the other hand, Boychuk is on a tear and is over a point a game contributor. As a small sized player he will face more hurdles than Dalpe, Bowman, or Nash; but Boychuk’s body of work both in the NHL and the AHL includes highlight reel plays, including some spectacular goals. I don’t know what you mean by Boychuk’s “development curve.” I do know he was beaten out of a position by Dalpe and Bowman this season and that is not ideal from his standpoint. I also know that most NHL forwards go through a maturation process in the NHL. Vastly more quality NHL forwards cut their teeth in the AHL than were able to able to jump from the OHL or NCAA directly to the NHL in a seamless fashion. Could Boychuk be a flame-out? Absolutely. Is there any real or substantial factual basis at this point other than his size to think he is a flame-out candidate, I personally think not.
Well size is a big issue, pun intended. Also, I really expected him to come in and displace a top-six forward in the lineup this year and become a 20+ goal scorer. When he did not, and in fact fell below at least two or three other prospects (Dalpe, Bowman, even Matsumoto perhaps), I was surprised. AHL development is great, very important, but this was a bit of a regression. I can’t imagine why we don’t call him up and let him skate in Samsonov’s place for a couple of games while he is hot. I am afraid that Rutherford et al. know something we dont.
Boychuk and Consistency
I wondered the same thing. Everybody I’ve heard within the Canes organization has been and remains very excited about Boychuk. Every other time in recent times that there was a player with question marks, the public statements if closely followed gave fair but fairly constrained indication of the issue. Thus far, all I hear and read is praise. The key word I’ve heard and read about Boychuk was the need to find consistency; and watching him it isn’t laziness that to which they are referring. I think Boychuk got into a habit of trying to lull other teams and then suddenly taking off. It is not effective in the NHL. Boychuk does his best work when he attacks the puck behind the net and in the corners and uses his low center of gravity to explode through the chests of his opponents, then gather the puck and pass or score. He has done that twice now for game winning plays. He is getting into the habit of going wide open throttle each shift rather than using some shifts to try to lull a defender into complacency. He also is much more active on his skating in the defensive zone rather than stopping and watching.
From what I’ve seen and have read and heard there are no fatal flaws to Boychuk’s game, but he still has some physical maturation and possibly a little bit more work on the complete, 100% effort each shift even when it seems like the effort won’t yield much. Skinner seems to make plays out of nowhere because he never stops trying to get the puck even if it seems at first like it is going to be an act of futility. Once Boychuk learns viscerally to adopt that approach, he will advance his chances of being called up and sticking. At this point it is a numbers game. Samsonov is too expensive to easily sit him down and he is skating hard so there is not a lack of effort which would make a coach and GM anxious to sit him. Still until Boychuk gets called up and shows he can translate his AHL game to the NHL, there will be legitimate questions whether he is NHL ready.
Consistency is also a big issue with the big club and its experienced players.
If people are concerned about seeing inconsistent effort from the ‘Canes, why would we want to rush up young guys who can’t show night-in, night-out consistency in the minors?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Hard to paint the picture on either of them.
Dalpe’s played less than 45 minutes of total NHL time, and it’s not like he embarrassed himself. The one point he got came in what amounts to about two games’ worth of ice time for a guy like Staal, and he was never lower than a -1 in any game.
As for Boychuck, I’m not sure what you mean about his development curve. He’s still a very young player, and he’s obviously improving. He’s scoring at a higher clip, and his shooting percentage is up significantly. Maybe you’d say he’s got better talent around him, but, again, I think it’s better for a kid that young (remember, he’s only 21) to be doing really well and playing a lot in the AHL than playing sparingly and scuffling with the big boys.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Development Curve
In referring to development curve, I mean the time it takes a young, talented pro hockey player to hone his craft to the point he can consistently play his style of game within the team’s system. Skinner’s development curve has been dramatic in terms of how quickly he fit within the Canes system. Boychuk is being vastly under-rated by many people posting here. In Boychuk’s 31 games with the Canes last year, he had some moments of sheer brilliance. He came to camp improved and in good shape; but Dalpe and Bowman were slightly better within the system for the positions the Canes had open. I suspect that if O’Sullivan were not signed, Boychuk would have stayed on the Canes.
Boychuk’s development curve in my view is that he has improved all aspects of his game dramatically since the start of last season. His development is continuing at Charlotte and he continues to improve. I’d summarize the areas that he is doing much better but occasionally needs reminding as (1) locking his knees and standing upright to purvey the scene rather than keeping his feet moving and staying in a more “springed” position and (2) taking an extra pause before making his offensive move. He also needs to continue to work on explosiveness and strength on his skates. He is scoring over a point a game at Charlotte; and some of the goals and passes he has made are spectacular. My take is that some of this improvement needed AHL time, perhaps; but more likely he could have benefited from a Gary Roberts style off-season training. Boychuk was also caught in a numbers/salary crunch.
I happen to think Boychuk, Dalpe, and Bowman are all ready for the NHL, but it isn’t stunting their growth to get time working on their strengths and their weaknesses in Charlotte; and on balance they can get equivalent growth as players in the AHL getting more minutes or on the top nine lines. They could still develop on the fourth line if along with the typical five to seven minutes of TOI they got several shifts with Staal double-shifting.
I actually wasn't responding to you.
My reply was to prplmnkydw. Still, I agree with what you’ve said here.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
I am of the mindset that we are in a “rebuild”, but still in the early stages. I agree that I don’t like when people use that as an excuse, because the vast majority of our assets/players are not rookies. I would like to see a spot opened up on the 2nd or 3rd line and let the kids rotate in that spot for 5 or 6 game shifts. With that being said, trades are hard this time of year; especially pieces that we don’t want anymore (Sammy & possibly Harrison). But moves can be made, see the Canes and Avs. I also wouldn’t mind seeing one of the kids get a 5 or 6 game “tryout” in the top 9. If they were up for 2 weeks, the cost to the Canes would only be about $50K more than what they are currently spending. The Canes could sit Sammy for a few games, sit Skinner (allowing him to get a rest) for a game, or sit one of the other players that is struggling due to a minor injury.
Either way, I think we are in a rebuild; I just wish we were further along in the process by playing some of the kids, gaining experience, so next season may be a little more prosperous for us.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
We're only a third of the way through the season.
The fact that we’re not seeing five or six of our early twenties gang right now doesn’t mean we won’t ever see them this year.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, but as C-Leaguer mentioned; last year’s kids didn’t get the other team’s best shot because we were so far out of the playoff picture by the time we played. I’m not advocating bringing up a bunch of Checkers to play on the Canes. I would just like to see 1 open top 9 spot for the kids. If the Canes had a week against some more physical teams, bring up Dalpe or Bowman to replace Samsonov or someone. If we are playing a couple of fast teams, let Boychuk fill a role to see what he could do. All the time, the kids and management could be measuring their abilities against the top hockey competition in the world.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
Not rebuilding, just treading water
I think JR floated the term “rebuilding” to cover his *ss if his normal, “do nothing to start the year, see how things go, pick through the bargain bin toward the trade deadline” routine went. Especially this year, when Peter K is fishing for an influx of cash, JR’s not gonna go land some big names to give us a chance. That said, he’s not gonna forfeit our chances this year with a complete rebuild because that would lose fan interest and scare-off potential buyers. To be quite honest, I think JR is caught between a rock and a hard place. His hands are kinda tied, BUT he put himself in this position with all those crappy long-term, no-trade contracts he’s been digging out of over the past few years.
I, for one, would fully support a wholesale re-build, but I’m a diehard fan that would keep coming to the rink to see the young guns play. Other johnny-come-lateleys would likely abandon the team, and you’d be back to the days of 8,000 attendance figures in an all-star hosting year.
"Mo Must Go...Unless You're in Love with .500 Hockey and Undeveloped Young Talent"
Agree with the top part, the budget necessitated the bargain basement shopping, which he’s done an ok job at doing in terms of filling holes. I don’t support a whole-sale rebuild, not with Staal & Ward in the primes of their career.
I don’t think it’s going to be a whole-sale rebuild. I don’t see the need to change the GM or the core of the team. That said, most of the complimentary parts do need to go, and I think that’s what were seeing here. On the bright side, I don’t think this rebuild will take as long as others have around the league and I think it got a big shot in the arm thanks to the Skinner draft choice.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
JR's style
I think JR’s real talent has been patience. He has waited until the small, cheap, tinkering moves his budget allows pay off by generating chemistry and success on the ice. Then he closes the deal well with supplementary trades, ala 2006. I think the plan now is to wait for some of these pieces to begin to line up, and then get more aggressive.
I don’t know what you want to call it but I wouldn’t call it a rebuild. A rebuild is where scrap the whole thing, tear apart your core, and make it known to your fanbase that you’re going to tank, usually the fans accept this and gives the team a free pass to lose. We are not there and don’t need to be. JR’s done a good job of giving himself flexibility next year with only 8 guys under contract but is stuck under a couple of bad contracts this season. I don’t know if this franchise could sustain a full re-build like we’ve seen in Pittsburgh, Chicago, and now Edmonton.
That's not rebuilding.
That’s a full-scale reboot or blowup.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
We are in rebuilding mode
Teams that do not make the play-offs should be in rebuilding mode. The Canes are in the process of rebuilding and have a good core in place. (Jim definitely should have traded Whitney last year and gotten something in return!)
Core: Staal, Skinner, Sutter, Ruutu, Gleason, Corvo, McBain, Ward
Resign or trade by deadline: Jokinen, Pitkanen, White, Harrison
Trade at deadline: Cole, Samsonov, Larose
There is no point in finishing 9-12 in the conference. Trade away these UFAs and give the younger guys more playing time. Even if a couple of Boychuk, Dalpe and Bowman make it into a regular forward spot, we will still need one more strong top 6 forward, which we can hopefully buy in the summer.
Semin and Richards will command top dollar but Simon Gagne (off to a slow start) and Michael Ryder may be more affordable options in July.
by Houston for Canes on Dec 1, 2010 4:02 PM EST reply actions
He TRIED to trade Whitney.
Moving his family from Raleigh, though, was too much for Ray to handle. Fortunately, Phoenix is just a short bus ride away.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Great read Bob, and thanks for addressing it. I know several people know how I feel about this term, but I do not consider this team in a rebuilding phase. They are in more of a flux than anything else. I know this team is not a true Stanley Cup competitor at all right now, and to expect them to be #1 in the SE is tantamount to being ignorant of what our team is.
But I do expect them to make a push and be able to hang around the #6-8 spots. This team has enough “veteran” players (no, I personally do not consider a team having to have ten 30 year old guys to be a veteran team) on it to be better than many teams in the NHL. IMO, they are not keeping up with the pack right now.
I understand that can change in a month or a few weeks. I really do hope that happens. But as of now this team in flux is only playing well enough to stay above water. This must change soon if they want to make a legitimate push at the PO.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
You obviously don't think a team needs more than three 29-year-old guys to be a veteran team.
Because that’s all. We. Got.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
I think the team is rebuilding. JR himself said the team is rebuilding. The difference between this team and a team like Edmonton is the fact that the Canes are still competitive, and may sneak into the playoffs when all is said and done. Most rebuilding teams suck on a nightly basis. Carolina only sucks part of the time, which to me is evidence that the younger players are still learning, and the team is still searching for an identity (which I blame on constant line shuffling, but that’s a topic for another thread). Once that identity is found, I think consistency will follow. We also have a new corps of leaders. The “C” and "A"s are rookies themselves at those particular roles. They are still learning what those roles call for, just like Skinner, McBain, etc, are learning the game.
The fact that the Canes are still competitive, IMO, makes it more difficult for JR to pull the trigger on trading players away. Plus, as it was said earlier, we aren’t the only team looking to add players to help our cause. If you ask me, if the Canes as a rebuilding team can still make a strong push, I can’t wait to see them after them the rebuilding is complete.
My last thought is this. A pro team rebuild is much different than a college team rebuild. A perfect example is UNC men’s basketball. They lost an entire starting lineup, plus a couple of regular contributors from their ‘08-’09 National Champion team. They are in a full blown rebuild, from the ground up. When was the last time you saw a pro team dump so many players and start from scratch the following year. Carolina didn’t do that, so the rebuild simply isn’t as evident as most.
"Being ready is not what matters. What matters is winning after you get there." LtGen Victor H. Krulak, USMC
April 1965
No, you can't say that about the captains!
Are you in the locker room? How could you possibly know they aren’t as strong and qualified in leadership roles as Brind’Amour and Whitney?!?!?!!
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Relax. All I’m saying is that they are still learning the roles. It’s not like a guy knows how to fill the role of Captain as soon as he gets the “C”. Besides, I didn’t say anything about qualifications. But since you asked, are YOU in the locker room? If so, please enlighten us.
"Being ready is not what matters. What matters is winning after you get there." LtGen Victor H. Krulak, USMC
April 1965
I guess I should have included my sarcasm font.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, and was ripped in a recent post for suggesting that the team’s new leaders might be learning their way through the new roles.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Sarcasm
I can see that now.
"Being ready is not what matters. What matters is winning after you get there." LtGen Victor H. Krulak, USMC
April 1965
Rebuild
It’s a rebuild. And a rebuild that going to take more than one year to play out due to some multi-year contracts. Looking at Bob’s list, it’s barely started.
The obvious choices of Samsonov. LaRose, and Tlusty to be gone next season (at the latest), is a bit too safe to be a complete list. You don’t get something for nothing. I would like Pitkanen to stay, but would not be surprised to see Ruutu and Cole traded. Ruutu didn’t exactly shine in the ‘09 playoffs and he’s pulling a big salary.
We’re solidly entrenched in fourth place in the SouthEast division. Both Tampa Bay and, yes, Atlanta have done good things this year. Picking up a lot of cheap points against them as in the last few years isn’t going to happen. I’m resigned to this being a rebuilding year and the ‘no-playoffs’ that go with it.
Rebuilding or not rebuilding, that is the question. Honestly, I think we are, but on the fly, which isn’t really rebuilding. We haven’t traded away today for a wave of youngsters like a typical rebuild. I really, really want JR to make a big move while our core is in their prime. You have to strike while the iron’s hot, though I wouldn’t describe us as ‘hot’ right now. But there’s cap space to keep Pitkanen and/or White and enough left over to get a winger for Staal. How does a Staal-Skinner-Semin line sound? Scary as hell! It’d put butts in the seats and I bet there’d be a couple of buyers lined up (maybe, I’m not a businessman). You gotta spend money to make it, and the way the Canes make money is by getting into the playoffs. We need a star winger and I think it’d put us over the cusp, and we have cap space and trade pieces to make it happen.
Definitley Rebuilding
I would say we are definitely in a rebuilding process, and have been since last year. I think the rebuild started last year when management finally began to jetison the leftovers of the 2006 cup. I would say that we had been hanging on to the remains of our cup winning team (even to the extent of bringing players back who had even already left *cough*cole*cough*a.ward*) in hope of being able to achieve the feat again.
I think the trigger for the rebuild (and final admission that we were not going to repeat a strong cup run with the same players) came when management finally accepted that Brind’Amour was, in fact, over the hill (with all due repect to him) and the emergence of young Sutter as his replacement made the inevitable more acceptable. This started the quickfire expulsion of all older players/expiring contracts to help gather resources for the future.
Like others have mentioned above, our rebuild has been made easier by the fact our core was already in place and did not need too much altering. We are therefore in this grey area where we are on the verge of being competitive due to having our core in tact but are still waiting for the additional/complementary players to mature (draftees/prospects) or arrive via FA to complete the team.
Interesting and exciting times to be a Canes fan =D
JR has said that they can’t afford an all out rebuild but that they would put a younger team on the ice, a team that he thinks should still remain competitive.
The Canes may not be able to afford the current strategy either. With the Caps strong, the Lightning and Thrashers high in the standings, and Dale Tallon truly rebuilding the Panthers, the Canes could end up last in the division. Not good for revenues.
by curiouscanesfan on Dec 1, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
The Hurricanes were on top of the standings pretty recently themselves.
The whole point here is that they’re building to sustained success. It’s great to know that you’ll advance in the playoffs if and when you get there, but if you only get there once every three or four years, who cares?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
I see it more as a
Restructuring than a down & out rebuild…more like a “tweek here and there” type of thing…what i see the canes in dire need of is a Power foward to help Staal, and one more stay at home D-man…Now who goes to get either…well we all can and have speculated till we were all blue in the face…but with a self imposed salary cap…I see the canes to keep on “tweeking” as they have been unless something seriously goes wrong between NOW & the trade deadline..but I’m just a fan…yada,yada,yada…
PS Thanks Bob.good set of questions
The moment you write off the Hurricanes,
they make you look bad !!
Perhaps relevant to this discussion. Forbes has come out with its valuation of all 30 NHL teams. The Canes are 24th at $162Mil. According to LukeDeCock on twitter, that’s a 10% drop from last year.
Here’s the Forbes article.
You have to go through a slide show to see them in order (one way to increase site pageviews). You may remember one of the authors made some disparaging comments about Carolina hockey fans over the summer, so that may or may not be part of the thinking. I don’t think you can “go to the bank” on it fersherr.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Dec 1, 2010 8:59 PM EST reply actions
Canes' rebuilding vs Panthers' rebuilding
Great article, Bob.
I think the Canes are rebuilding and JR has done a great job of adding young talent to the organization. But it’s hard to tell if they’re getting younger to get better or to get cheaper. Either way, they seem to be rebuilding one wing of the structure at a time using different strategies. The best defensive prospects are coming along years later than the forwards. The Dmen take longer, and the best were drafted in more recent years and not as high as the forwards.
Look ahead to what the Canes’ group of forwards might look like in 2012-13. Lines combining the players below might be good enough to compete at a fairly high level if Skinner turns out to a top player, Sutter gets better, and two or three of the other forward prospects are at the Ruutu-Jokinen-Cole level.
Staal Skinner Ruutu
Sutter Tlusty Bowman
Dalpe Boychuk Osala
Nash Terry Samson
Ignoring the 2011 draft, there are enough forward prospects even if Samsonov, Cole, Dwyer, LaRose and Jokinen—all five of them—leave. I’m not saying they all should leave or that all the prospects will come through. I’m just pointing out how much talent will be emerging from the forward pipeline by that time if not already entrenched in the NHL. In terms of age, there are only 2 veteran holdovers in the 4 lines listed above: Staal and Ruutu. Everybody else is really young.
What might the defensive pairings look like in 2012-13? If all goes well, maybe something like this:
Pitkanen McBain
Gleason Faulk
Dumoulin Sanguinetti
Carson, Borer, Alt, Biega, Levi and Rissanen are other possibilities but seem like longshots. It’s not clear that the six defensemen shown would, in 2012-13, be as good as today’s pairings with Corvo and White, and the current pairings aren’t exactly shutting down the league. Faulk and Dumoulin will have little or no pro experience. The jury is out on Sanguinetti. Gleason is the only really physical defenseman in the hypothetical 2012 pairings. Relying on internal development and retaining the top two free agents, the defense might be weaker than what we’re seeing today. That’s not rebuilding. That’s spending a lot on free agents and losing ground.
Comparison with the Panthers
The Canes won’t be rebuilding in competition with their own dismal record of player development before 2002 but with other teams. I was shocked when I went looking for a fair point of comparison within the division. The Caps rank first in the league. I knew the LIghtning and Thrashers were doing better, but didn’t realize they rank 6th and 9th. (How’s that for rebuilding?) The Canes are in 22nd place, 3 points ahead of the Panthers. However, the Panthers have two games in hand. I didn’t go looking for doom and gloom, but there it is. The Panthers do seem like a fair point of comparison for rebuilding from this point. Bob talked about how Dale Tallon rebuilt the Blackhawks. Now he’s in Florida.
I started comparing the Panthers and Canes by looking at youth on the NHL rosters. It’s about the same. The Panthers have 5 players age 22 or younger, including their leading scorer Michael Frolik who is 22 and playing his third NHL season. The Canes have 4 players on the NHL roster who are 22 or younger. Two of the young Panthers are defensemen, including 20-yr-old Dimitry Kulikov.
It didn’t take a minute to see the huge difference between the way the Panthers and Canes build or rebuild a defense. The Panthers are willing to draft defensemen very high and let them play earlier in the NHL. They are often going for big physical defensemen. Keaton Ellerby on the NHL roster is 6’4" and 220 lbs. The Panthers just drafted two big defensemen, Gudbranson (3rd overall) and Petrovic (36th overall). Kulikov (14th overall) played his first full season in the NHL at age 19. Ellerby (10th overall) is 22. Someday pairings that include Gudbranson, Ellerby, Petrovic and Kulikov should be formidable. The Panthers have defensive prospects who are bigger, were drafted higher, and will have NHL experience sooner than the Canes’ young DMen. The Canes have been drafting extremely well and McBain and Dumoulin look like brilliant 2nd round choices, but can the Canes’ approach build a defense in the same class as the ultimate Panthers’ product? Will the Canes spend enough on free agents to make up the difference?
As for forwards, the Panthers just drafted Nick Bjugstad (19th overall and led all players at the USA Hockey National Junior Evaluation Camp with seven goals in seven games), Quinton Howden (25th overall) and John McFarland (33rd overall). Michael Frolik (10th overall) and Shawn Matthias (47th overall) are playing in the NHL at 22 and Michal Repik (40th overall) at 21. They’ve got other interesting prospects, but unless Bjugstad turns out to be another Eric Staal, the Canes’ forward prospects may have the edge.
It may be time for the Canes to rebuild more aggressively and reconsider their approach to drafting defensemen. They also need to think about whether their current strategy based on slashing the salary budget, together with sudden marked improvements in Tampa and Atlanta and the arrival of Dale Tallon in Florida, has made the Canes less attractive to investors. Surprisingly, there’s a real danger of being viewed as a reclamation project, not a glorious story of rebuilding with a lower salary budget and proving you can be competitive and profitable. Are the Canes’ proving that? The Canes aren’t doing worse than expected. The rest of the division is doing better. The Canes look worse all the same. It’s bound to be harder to sell a piece of a team perceived as a likely division doormat rather than a young, talented, economically efficient team on the rise. A potential investor might think the Canes will have to spend a fortune on free agents to stay out of the division cellar and avoid a collapse in ticket revenues. If majority ownership’s proclaimed business strategy backfires, potential minority investors may pass.
This would be a great time for a long Canes’ winning streak that shows the current low-budget strategy is working.
by curiouscanesfan on Dec 1, 2010 9:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Good comparison (tho for a sec I thought you meant the Carolina Panthers, lol). The division improved very much, the Thrashers are a huge surprise. Dropping Kovy seems like the most genius move of last season, he’s an anchor, at least so far into his young contract. You bring up an interesting point about the final product of the defenses, comparatively. The thing I consider is playing-time versus nhl experience. Is it better to have your blue-chip prospects get lots of playing time or learn to deal with NHL caliber forwards? It’s obvious JR goes with the former, and I kinda agree with that. I think it’s better to round out the bottom levels of the roster with stable role-players. I kinda wish we kept Pothier and paired him with Harrison for 5/6 d.
Thrashers are a huge surprise, but was it giving up Kovalchuk or getting an amazing infusion of size and talent? They got Ladd, Byfuglein, Ben Eager, Brent Sopel, Johnny Oduya, Niclas Bergfors, Anthony Stewart and Alexander Burmistrov to go with Evander Kane, Bryan Little , Rich Peverley, Zach Begosian, and Tobias Enstrom, not to mention Chris Mason and Ondrej Pavelec. They had some talent but they remade their roster. We just fixated on the loss of Kovalchuk without getting a superstar in return.
Byfuglein and Ladd have been the most important additions. They’re both point-a-game players and they had nothing to do with losing Kovalchuk.
The Thrashers are a bad matchup for the Canes. They are huge, with players at 265, 245, 235, 230, 230, 225, 220, 215, 210, etc. They’ve got 7 guys who outweigh our biggest guy, Gleason, and 5 guys over 230.
by curiouscanesfan on Dec 1, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
True about Buff and Ladd, but they wouldn’t have had the money to make the move without dropping Kovy. I’m honestly jealous of their newfound success. The southeast is changing very rapidly. The Lightning have Stamkos, the Thrashers are a big tough team like you said, and Tallon will have the Panthers contending in 5-7 years. I just want JR to make a strong move so we don’t get left behind. Though Skinner I think will turn into a superstar, I want everything now! It’s probably a good thing I’m not a GM.
Ha...
Our Panthers aren’t rebuilding. They’re trying to run a team as cheaply as possible with no concerns of winning whatsoever.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Panthers
As someone who lived in South Florida for 8 years, I can tell you the Panthers are a crappy franchise in a crappy location who have been rebuilding for the past 15 years. I agree with you that maybe they have finally found a combination that may bring some success, however I still put my money (literally) on the ’Canes.
It's a third of the way through the year.
The standings as of 12/2/2010 hardly depict the definitive outlook for any of the franchises you mention over the course of the next three to five years.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure I really think this is a rebuild, because for me that implies a bigger and more abrupt teardown of the guts of the organization than what we’ve witnessed.
What I think it is… It’s more of a continuation of a planned transition that was put into motion last year, perhaps earlier than expected, but expected nonetheless, to a new core of younger talent. That core is pretty solid in terms of both talent and character to build around, perhaps stronger than what you’d see in a traditional rebuild. Paul Maurice said in last week’s State of the Canes that what we see on the ice is the foundation for the next 10 years.
And as far as playing more of the youth, and I hesitate to say this for fear of jinxing someone, but I think that’s more a factor of a surprisingly healthy roster than anything else. Our man days lost so far this year have been very low compared to season’s past. One unhealthy or injured player and the complexion of the team could have already been a lot different.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
Oh, and yes, I believe the “rebuild” is being done right. And yes the Finns are an integral part of it.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Dec 1, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
I think you have it exactly right. After the good draft years began and the core began to form, they were riding that veteran horse as long as they could while the talent was accumulating and developing.
The season-beginning losing streak last season was the signal that it was time to begin.
As for the Finns, Sami Kapanen may have been before the generation of fans that caught the Cup wave, but a better team player could not be found. Good positive vibes within the org from that introduction.
After a brief flirtation with Czechs, influenced by Ottawa’s experiments at the time (the Marshall Johnston influence again), this latest spate of Finns as our dominant European nationality has been a delight.
And, what you said about the injury bug. I’m amazed we’ve been so relatively healthy after the injury-ridden seasons we’ve endured in the past.
There’s where the prospects will get their chances, however, because statistically those events happen to every team…eventually.
Here we are now...entertain us.
Great point about the epidemic of relatively good health. I think Tlusty is well below par. He missed time for rehab but he’s playing. Ruutu recovered from surgery fast and is playing really well. Sutter and I suspect Jokinen, Gleason and Corvo were injured but stayed on the ice. Injuries have impaired performance but not opened roster spots.
by curiouscanesfan on Dec 1, 2010 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
Tlusty and his injury
I am optimistic that Tlusty’s play will improve as his knee gets stronger. He has shown speed, but he isn’t skating the way normally can and particularly upon accelerating.
Tlusty = Bust. We’re seeing the same thing out of him they saw in Toronto and the same thing we saw out of him at the end of last year: not much other than perimeter player.
Waste of a 1st Rounder, but I doubt Paradis will amount to much more than a 3rd/4th line grinder anyway. However Mo really likes him, so be prepared to see him shuffled through the lines over the next year or 2 trying to find his fit (any other chemistry be damned).
That said, I like what our 4th line is doing, though I believe Samson could easily replace Tlusty.
I’d like Dwyer put on the 4th line where he belongs, there’s no way he should be in the top 9. Waive Tlusty and bring up Boychuk.
Agreed, but I would bring up Dalpe. Let Boychuk marinate getting 1st line minutes in the AHL until trade deadline time and bring him up to have a great run late season similar to McBain last year.
No chance they waive a young player with a first-round pedigree who still has plenty of potential.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Samson wouldn't be nearly as effective as Tlusty on the fourth line.
He’s way smaller, and he’s nowhere near as responsible as a defensive player.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Again, he's exceptionally young.
As recently as a year ago, he was a point a game scorer in the AHL at 21. I wonder whether people would be happy with a prospect if he was doing anything other than dominating at the NHL level from the day he gets drafted. If he’s in the AHL dominating against players who are older and more experienced than him, it’s against inferior competition. If he’s at the NHL level struggling, he’s a bust. Is there really no middle ground?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
But you must admit, the NHL is a young mans game now.
Crosby was captaining a SCF team at 20
Eric Staal was the leading playoff points producer at 22
Jordan Staal was anchoring a SCF 3rd line at 19
Jeff Carter was a 20 goal scorer in the NHL at 20
Drew Doughty was a Norris Finalist at 20
Shea Weber was a 40 point defenseman at 21
I could go on
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
I suppose you could...
But you’ve also named six guys in a league of over 600 players. Individual young players can be great, but as a group, they’re simply not ready to make that instant impact on a regular basis.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
But my point is; give our kids a shot at real NHL time and see what unfolds. I also don’t believe the kids have to be “great” to make an impact on this team. If a Dalpe could come in and put up 10 to 15 goals and add more of a physical presence than say Samsonov, I believe that alone could go a long way to making the team better.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
This team has done more harm than good in the past when it’s come to rushing players up to the NHL. Now that they have their own AHL affiliate and a coach who is implementing the same system, I think it does wonders for the kids to get used to playing Hurricanes hockey in the AHL and refine their skills. It also lets them do that in a place where the competition is good but the expectations and pressures aren’t as high.
Think about it relative to your office. If you have something that has to go out by 5:00 PM today you don’t have time to make sure you understand the basics and get your fundamentals down pat. You have to get it out and that means doing first and learning second. That’s fine short term, but long term that can lead to a lot of problems. It’s the same with hockey players. They can be rushed, but that hurts development and hampers them long term.
Let them dominate down in Charlotte now. Let them get their feet wet after the deadline. Let them enjoy the AHL playoffs (assuming the Canes don’t make the playoffs or don’t go far). Then their more prepared for next season and the following years, which are in my opinion the seasons that matter more.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
by C-Leaguer on Dec 3, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, with that being said. Is having McBain up now hurting his development? If so, then send him to Charlotte and let Carson replace hime. Comparing those guys AHL/NHL salaries, it would also be a slight benefit in PK wallet having Carson here instead of McBain.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
I don't necessarily disagree...
However, I would say that the third pairing on defense is the easiest place you can “hide” a skater while also letting him see several different situations on the ice. The fourth line just isn’t a place for player development (and that’s true in way more places than just the ones where Maurice coaches.)
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 3, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
But would it be more beneficial for McBain to get tons of time in Charlotte compared to a reduced role in Raleigh? Again, it would save money and we know that’s important this season. :)
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
At 78 AHL games played, I think it's a fair decision on their part to leave him up.
Boychuck is coming up on that marker himself, and maybe they’ll be feeling more and more pressure to get him up here himself. Also, like you’ve mentioned, there’s the problem of finding somebody to replace him. If it’s Carson, I think the young guys and the staff lose a valuable player for the development of our defensive young guns. With his 50+ NHL games, he’s got more than the rest of that D corps combined, and I think he’s a great sounding board to the younger guy about the specific ways playing up in the bigs is different. Lessons can be learned from the mouth of your coaches, sure, but having somebody who’s been through the paces can be a great resource.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 3, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
My post was a little sarcasm. I think from my other post you would know that I think McBain and the other kids could learn and contribute at the NHL level.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
by PackPride17 on Dec 3, 2010 11:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Aha.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 4, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
I believe that all four of those you named as suspects were skating wounded instead of being rested partially because they were really not directly replaceable by a prospect.
Instead, a ripple effect would have occurred as another veteran rotated into the injured player’s role and the prospect was then plugged in at a lower exposure slot.
At that point, you have to question the impact to the team as to which does the most damage, skating the injured player, or suffering the ripple effect of disruption of lines or defensive pairings.
And, in Gleason’s case, who would really take his role? Harrison? McBain? Carson?
Speaking of which, the poor guy looks like he’s skating in a full lower-body cast out there. Sure hope he heals from whatever it is soon. Just has not been himself this season.
Here we are now...entertain us.
At that point, you have to question the impact to the team as to which does the most damage, skating the injured player, or suffering the ripple effect of disruption of lines or defensive pairings.
And, in Gleason’s case, who would really take his role? Harrison? McBain? Carson?
Interesting observation. It shows the Canes’ strategy of not drafting defensemen high isn’t working. They can fill a spot or two in the top 4 with a draft pick like McBain, but there’s zero depth in the system. The Canes don’t seem to think of anybody in Albany as even a temporary top 4 player while Gleason or Corvo heals. They’ve only got candidates for the third pairing. Signing another free agent instantly is also not an option when a top 4 guy gets hurt. So injured defensemen soldier on when they should be on IR and the Canes’ D stinks.
Dumoulin and Faulk are years away. Free agent defensemen and their agents, including Pitkanen and soon Gleason, have the Canes over a barrel. The Canes can play hardball with a guy like Carson that they obviously consider 3rd pairing at best and go with Harrison, but they can’t do anything like that with guys like Pitkanen and Gleason.
I wonder if Pitkanen and Gleason will factor having to play through debilitating injuries if they stay with the Canes into their decisions about where to sign.
by curiouscanesfan on Dec 2, 2010 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
If the injuries were "debilitating," they wouldn't be playing.
Nobody can force them out on the ice if they’re not ready/capable to do so.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
The Core Team for a Decade
I think the Cane organization is determined to keep its core players together for the next ten years; and I also think some of the young players at Carolina are considered to be part of that long-term group. It means that the team can be very selective in its draft choices and can also take some long term projects. We have seen this year how tough the competition is for roster spots. Over the next years, the competition for roster spots will become even more intense. I think the coaches are going to continue to use their fourth line in a traditional manner rather than using the fourth line as a proving ground for its young players. With the AHL affiliate in Charlotte, the coaches can keep track of its young prospects while giving them time to mature and to hone their craft.
There have been years with the Hurricanes where Terry, Osala, and Samson would already be on the roster. As it is, they are faces an uphill battle for a roster spot, despite their talent.
Yes, I believe we are in a rebuild————and it began at the end of last season, when we traded many older vets. JR and Maurice have both said we now have a core of players who will be together for years to come.
The question is which of those with expiring contracts this year do they see as core
(for years to come) I think Pits and Jussi and Sutter———-?? Cole ???Rosie
We all expected to see youngsters from Charlotte coming in and out, given the massive
injury minutes we saw over the last two years. And we may yet see some of that
but hope the good fortune re: injuries continues.
With what we have now, and what we have in Charlotte, I think JR sees a team that can compete and be a playoff team————-with perhaps a few “tweaks”, in the near future.
Since JR refers to this as “the third time” he has been involved in rebuilding this team,
I think it is fair to say—-WE ARE IN A REBUILD !!
GO CANES! Go Heels!
Possibly so...
But how much is too much to give up to make that acquisition?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Hope Springs Eternal...
I’ve read many of the discussions here since last season, though I rarely comment. I am often struck by the optimism of people who think we can trade for a highly-desired d-man or first line wing, or that we can draft someone who will go straight into the lineup. Who trades that d-man or wing, they need that kind of player too, and what do we have that we’re willing to offer? How often have the Canes drafted a guy straight into the lineup, especially a defenseman? Skinner, true. Staal. How many of our #1 picks even got into the regular team after three years?
Pitkanen: you can’t magically get a guy like this. Pay the one you’ve got. Is he worth as much as Ward or Staal? No, but he’s worth a lot.
Cole: the players seem to appreciate how he helps the team. We have no one to really replace him. He loves it here. Pay him, don’t trade him.
LaRose. Yes, his skillset is easier to replace, but he has intangible values that a younger guy with the same skills might not have. Could we trade him and re-sign him? Maybe. But only if we’re out of the playoff picture.
Samsonov: He is easiest to replace with a young fellow. How much he can be traded for, I don’t know. (Which makes me wonder how POS is doing in Minnesota…)
Harrison: trade him if someone will take him.
If you’re rebuilding, you should have young prospects playing. McBain, Skinner (and Sutter), and Tlusty, yes. But the rest, including some who played at the end of last year, are in the AHL. If you’re rebuilding, and have a schedule like the Canes’, you should have 23 guys up and be platooning the younger guys with some of the dinged/older players, both to provide energy (sorely lacking against Dallas, e.g.) and experience, and longevity for the older players. We don’t do that. Why? Finances, and typical hockey-macho that says you have to play every day even if you’re hurt.
Why did the Canes do so well late last season? Youthful energy helped the whole team. Is it there now? No.
So, are we rebuilding? Not well, no, but we are keeping costs down . . .
+1
Great post…I like the player-by-player breakdown. I’m seeing this as our core:
Staal, Skinner, Sutter, Ruutu, Gleason, Corvo, McBain, Ward
as someone previously posted. If that’s the case, start the platooning as you write above.
"Mo Must Go...Unless You're in Love with .500 Hockey and Undeveloped Young Talent"
I would not include Ruutu or Corvo. Nothing against either guy, but I think if the right deal came around either would be traded. The others you mentioned aren’t going anywhere unless they simply refuse to re-sign with the Canes.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
Jussi Jokinen = 30 goal scorer & great in the clutch; and a core team analysis
I definitely would consider Jokinen part of the core team. He is a proven 30 goal scorer who can play all three forward positions, is the NHL’s leader in shootout goals, even if he is in a slump for him in shootouts, and he is great in the clutch. Based on the statements by Jim Rutherford, Jason Karmanos, Jr., Paul Maurice, and Ron Francis, the Canes organization views Boychuk, Dalpe, and Bowman as players they plan to keep for the next decade. One can always postulate that they are just trying to hide their true intentions. My perspective is that they are low-keyed and soft spoken but they follow through with their plans.
In that regard, when Jim Rutherford says, “we have to get through December” and then they will assess the situation, based on his prior statements and conduct, it means that if the Canes are not in the throes of a playoff hunt, expect to see non-core players traded for draft choices and/or prospects. The Canes are close to the core team as it is. If the Canes are out of the playoff hunt, and perhaps even if they are in the hunt, I’d predict Samsonov, Harrison, and LaRose are traded.
I’ve seen differing views of what happens with Cole. My own view is that as long as he is healthy and hustling, he is re-signed. I’ve heard and read that because Cole has such a history of injuries and has a history of going into slumps that he, too, will be traded. I recall Jim Rutherford in some interview being asked about trading Cole and he said he didn’t expect that to happen. He cited the Edmonton experience with Cole and said something to the effect that for whatever reason some players just fit with a franchise. As such, here is my best guess as to who the Hurricanes view as their core team:
Centers: Staal, Sutter, Ruutu
Wings: Skinner, Jokinen, Cole, Dwyer
Core Forward Prospects: Boychuk, Dalpe, Bowman (and likely Nash)
Defensemen: Gleason, Pitkanen, McBain, Corvo (with the caveat that depending how this season does, White might become a core defenseman)
Goalies: Cam Ward
Whose is likely to be jettisoned at some point absent significant breakout in play: Samsonov, LaRose, Tlusty, Harrison. Tlusty has the best chance to breakout. The coaches and organization love his ability; and we have to give him some slack in terms of his trying to recover from his knee injury. It’s true he hasn’t yet had his breakout year; and it’s fair to wonder if he has it in him to play to his potential.
I’m inclined to think the Canes organization will draft the best power forward they can get in the draft and will depend on the team as it is while the power forwards in the system mature and develop. In theory by the time Cole is ready to retire, those power forwards will be fully formed NHL power forwards. Finally, although Boychuk, Dalpe, Bowman, and I think Nash are considered as core prospects, any or all of them could suddenly tank. It’s a theoretical possibility; but as far as I am concerned all four have the skill, mind set, and pedigree to be outstanding NHL players. I view those four prospects as nearly sure thing prospects. The proof, however, comes on the ice.
I wonder if the thought of trading Sutter has ever come into managements minds. I’d have to imagine that he has a lot of value to other teams and Staal/Sutter as our 1/2 doesn’t look as sexy as it once did with them both being near last in FO % among Centers. I think Sutter, Ruutu, or Pitkanen are about the only 3 players the Canes would be willing to trade that could actually bring back an impact player.
AD,
I really like Jussi and think he is one heck of a player. But stop using the “proven 30 goal scorer”! The man had a career high last season of 30 goals, yes; but he has not proved he is a consistent 30 goal scorer. This season, he is on pace for the low 20s. Saying Jussi is a proven 30 goal scorer is like saying LaCavalier is a proven 50 goal scorer because he did it once or Cheechoo is a proven 50 goal scorer because he did it once. Jussi is a good player, probably a 20 to 25 goals a season guy that will probably also put up about 60 points. He might again score 30 goals in one season, but last year could very well be his career high.
If Staal can play like he did in LA on a nightly basis, he will be the 100 point player we all expect him to be!
I hate to say it but the Ruutu contract isn’t looking very good when you compare it to Jokinen. Unless Ruutu’s willing to take a major paycut this should probably be his last contract in Carolina, so he probably shouldn’t be considered a core player, same with Dwyer and Jokinen.
Agreed on Ruutu, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised to see him shipped out simply because his actualy salary is $4.4 million next year and he may be one of the only assets we have that could land a real long-term upgrade. He certainly has a ton of value with his style game, decent offensive ability, and the number of hits he can rack up.
$4.4 is a lot of money for what he brings. Seems you can probably get a similar player in the $2-$3 mil range. If he’s worth $4.4 then Jokinen deserves a big raise this summer.
And don't think such intra-team comparisons don't go into contract negotiations.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
No idea why you'd include Dwyer.
He’s, at best, a fourth line energy guy long term. He’s certainly not the player that even LaRose is, and you’re ready to see him sent out of town.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
i was gonna watch
but i fell asleep !! what was his stats ??
The moment you write off the Hurricanes,
they make you look bad !!
- Pitkanen: You say he’s not worth as much as Ward, but I think he could easily chase Ward’s cap number. Is he really worth $6 mil relative to what we could get for a significantly lower price (like, say, White?)
- Just out of curiosity, what part of Cole’s game do you think is most irreplaceable? He’s got some size we don’t have in the minors, but he doesn’t really use it well, and I think his production is replaceable.
- Agree about Rosie’s intangibles.
- O’Sullivan has 1 G and 2 A in five games up there, in about double the ice time he saw here.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Dec 2, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
I like the way the rebuilding is going and I have to keep comparing what the Hurricanes are doing to that “pro” football team in Charlotte. JR is slowly putting pieces into place, some are temporary, while keeping the team competitive. (The Panthers are rebuilding again, aren’t competitive and still can’t find a QB) The Hurricanes have a solid core, a lot of potential in the youth and are missing only a few pieces that can either be filled with trades or free agency. And let’s not forget… all this is being done on a small budget!
I never expected the Hurricanes to be one of the top teams this year… but they are just a few wins from being in the thick of a playoff position.
Rebuild & Recover
Remember that this is a business. It is, like many other businesses, riding through a tough economy that may still see sawtooth activity and less than robust consumer confidence. Hopefully, ticket and retail sales will increase like they have in other holiday venues so far this season.
I say this only to level-set/frame actions and expectations of the organization. While winning is the ultimate formula for success, this market & franchise cannot bear risky overspending and experimentation to get to that winning formula. JR has done a good job keeping the Canes competitive, exciting, youthful and exhibiting a hopeful future. I hope that the post December youth infusion happens & keeps us in the win column enough to get experience, revenue and another great draft pick ilike Skinner.
2 years to the Cup
I don't think length of contract is really relevant.
In fact, those are the guys I’d think mattered most when you were rebuilding (particularly the RFAs you still have plenty of relatively cheap control over.) Those are the guys you need to find out about: whether they fit in your system, whether they fit in your clubhouse, whether they’re continuing to grow or not as players. Yes, it’s important to have a core group locked up for a long time, but it’s also important to identify your sub-core, or the players who will be around to support that core for years to come.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
Late to the thread.
I think the team is in a partial rebuild. Too many returning veteran Canes to call it a full rebuild. Potato, potato !
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