A Belated Look At The Carolina Hurricanes’ Trade Deadline Moves
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 8, 2010 4:07 PM EST
163 comments
A five-day trip to Buffalo — where I tried but failed to keep the Sabres from making the best buyers' move of the deadline — kept me off the radar for this season's NHL's annual swap meet. But have no fear! I'm still going to weigh in on the moves GM Jim Rutherford made — and didn't make — and what it means in the long and short term for the franchise.
Move 1: D Niclas Wallin and Carolina’s fifth-round pick in 2010 to San Jose for Buffalo’s second-round pick in 2010.
What does it mean? Look up role player in the Hurricanes almanac and you'll find a picture of Wallin. Never flashy — though he did have a flair for the dramatic — Wallin was Carolina’s longest-tenured player and ranks fourth all-time in games played with the Canes. But with an expiring contract and age not on his side, Wallin’s days in Raleigh were likely over.
Did they get the goods? The fact the Rutherford got a second round pick for a bottom pairing defenseman and a fifth is really a coup. Wallin’s strength, penalty killing and experience will be missed, but the team is moving in a different, younger direction, and the 35-year-old likely wasn't in their plans beyond this season.
Move 2: C/W Matt Cullen to the Senators for D Alexandre Picard and Ottawa’s second round pick in 2010.
What does it mean? Cullen was in the final year of his deal, but don't rule out a return to Raleigh in 2010-11. If Rod Brind`Amour retires at season's end, chances are Rutherford will be in the market for a third-line center. Cullen is still just 33 and has always been at his best in Carolina. If Brind'Amour's $3 million salary came off the books, Rutherford could offer Cullen somewhere in the neighborhood of $4.5 to $5.5 million over the next two seasons and shore up the center ice position and bring back a fan favorite — again.
Did they get the goods? Rutherford got a huge return for the shifty forward, landing a cheap replacement on the blueline for Wallin in Picard and another second rounder. Picard will be an RFA this offseason, but will likely fetch only around $1 to $1.25 million a season, depending on the length of the contract. Picard may have a tough time cracking the Hurricanes’ special teams units, but he should get ample even-strength ice time going forward.
Move 3: D Aaron Ward to the Ducks for G Justin Pogge and a conditional (Boston’s) fourth round pick in 2010 or 2011.
What does it mean? For the second time in two years, Ward felt stung by the way he was treated by the Raleigh faithful. The aftermath of the "Scott Walker punch" incident clearly left a bad taste in his mouth, and Ward's early season struggles were never forgiven despite his much improved play the past couple months. For a player who was once woven into the franchise's fabric and called the Triangle home — even when he played in New York and Boston — Ward's fall from grace in the eyes of many Caniacs is something Rutherford could never have envisioned. His deal expiring, Ward would not have been back in 2010-11. The acquisition of Pogge leads me to believe Justin Peters has made enough of an impression to land the backup goaltender job in Raleigh next season. Pogge will likely compete with Murphy for the starting job with the new Charlotte AHL team next season, while Manny Legace's run with the franchise is probably over.
Did they get the goods? Considering Ward cleared waivers earlier this season with no takers, the return was good. Pogge, an RFA, needs a new contract and may never make it into a Canes uniform, but goalie mentor Tom Barrasso will get the chance to work his magic on the big netminder, and the team has filled a need in goal in the farm system. The draft pick further stock piles Rutherford's coffers for June, when he will have the chance to both replenish the farm system and move up in the draft.
Move 4: W Scott Walker to the Capitals for Washington’s seventh round pick in 2010.
What does it mean? Walker, like Ward and Wallin, had an expiring deal, and the team's youth movement likely wouldn't include him next season. The throwback winger deserves another shot at the postseason, and while it hurts to move him within the Southeast Division, it's a great chance for him to go deep in the playoffs again.
Did they get the goods? If shedding payroll is "the goods," then yes. You never what can happen, but in most instances a seventh round pick amounts to nothing.
Move 5: D Joe Corvo to the Capitals for D Brian Pothier, W Oskar Osala and Washington’s second round pick in 2011.
What does it mean? It's conceivable that Corvo, like Cullen, could come back to Carolina this offseason. But the return was just too high to pass up, and Corvo's departure opens the door for more ice time for Picard, Brett Carson, Jamie McBain and others.
Did they get the goods? In landing Osala — another Finn for Rutherford's collection — and a second, the team added more draft firepower and a desperately needed big body in the system. The 6-4 Osala may have gone in the fourth round in the 2006 draft, but several services had him slotted in the top two rounds. Also, the logjam of talent in Washington's farm system meant he wasn't a featured player on a very good Hershey AHL squad. He should get a shot to show his worth the rest of the way in Albany, then perhaps push for a roster spot next year — when the Hurricanes will open their season in his homeland of Finland — or in 2011-12. Pothier, whose deal is up at the end of the season, was a salary ($2.5 million) tradeoff by the Caps, but if he fits in well with the Canes the team could push to re-sign him. He's known as an easy-going guy and should assimilate in the room with ease. The 2011 pick gives Rutherford a chip for next season if the Canes bounce back like he expects in 2010-11.
Move 6: C Stephane Yelle and W Harrison Reed to the Avalanche for Cedric Lalonde-McNicoll and Colorado’s sixth round pick in 2006.
What does it mean? This move, along with Walker's trade to a contender, further cements Rutherford as a GM who cares about his players. With this deal, Yelle returns to the city where he had most of his success and rejoins a playoff push late in his career. Don't think for a minute that free agents don't notice that Rutherford treats his players right. On top of that, Rutherford sheds more payroll.
Did they get the goods? The team got a character guy in Lalonde-McNicoll, a two-time CHL Sportsman of the Year. He was a big-time playmaker with Shawinigan of the QMJHL — playing there with current Canes prospect Matthew Pistilli and recently traded 2009 first round pick Philippe Paradis — but has yet to translate that to the AHL level in his first pro season. He will give Albany coach Jeff Daniels another body — albeit a small one at 5-10 — for the AHL stretch run and could perhaps spark a bottom six line with Pistilli. The sixth round pick is a throw-in, but like the seventh landed in the Walker trade, sometimes you hit the jackpot late. Reed’s development never progressed and he needed a fresh start.
Move 7: D Andrew Alberts to the Canucks for Vancouver’s third round pick in 2010.
What does it mean? It means Rutherford wants to retool his defense around Tim Gleason, Joni Pitkanen and McBain. Alberts was signed through next year at a reasonable $1.3 million ($1.05 million cap hit) and had performed well for the role he was given. But Alberts’ absence on special teams was likely a deciding factor. The team can insert a specialist (Bryan Rodney?) into the third pairing and perhaps boost their power play or penalty kill.
Did they get the goods? Considering Alberts had a year left of his deal, I'd say yes. A third round pick for a 15-minute-a-night blueliner who didn't kill penalties for Carolina is a decent return, even if he was reasonably priced for 2010-11. Still, this is probably the most questionable deal of all.
Move X: Not trading Ray Whitney.
What does it mean? Well, Alberts is the most questionable deadline move, but the decision — whether it was Rutherford's or Whitney’s — to not get something for Whitney is the biggest "Huh?" moment of the deadline. Rutherford was ready to pull the trigger on a speculated deal to Los Angeles, but The Wizard reportedly killed the trade when he asked for a multi-year extension with the Kings.
Did they get the goods? If Rutherford can re-sign Whitney to a reasonably priced short-term deal (one or two years), all will be forgotten. But if Whitney walks this offseason, Rutherford will be steamed — at Whitney for blocking the L.A. deal, and at himself for getting burned again by a no-trade clause — he couldn't get a big return on the most desirable available asset on the deadline market. Even if Whitney does come back, Rutherford will probably lose some sleep wondering what kind of return he could've received.
* * *
What does it all mean? A lot will hinge on three things: 1) Will Whitney be re-signed? 2) Will Brind'Amour be back for 2010-11? and 3) Will the team try to and succeed in re-signing Pothier?
If Whitney leaves, Zach Boychuk could get a shot at a top-six role at the start of 2010-11, plus open another spot for someone like Drayson Bowman, Zac Dalpe, Osala, ect. If Brind'Amour leaves, there will be a void that needs to be filled at the third-line pivot. That could mean an attempt at bringing back Cullen or, if the team flounders enough down the stretch, a spot for an NHL-ready draft pick to step in to the lineup. It could also lead to Jussi Jokinen moving back to center, though he has found chemistry with Staal and Whitney on the top line. If both Whitney and Brind'Amour decide to return, there will be a logjam up front that will need to be addressed — that means buying out or trading a forward to make room for the youngsters.
On defense, Pothier's fate and McBain's progress will determine what direction the team goes. If Pothier is re-signed, the Canes will likely need to sign just one defenseman going forward. McBain will get a look in Raleigh before this season is over, and if he impresses expect him to slide into a top-four role, perhaps alongside Gleason. Picard and Pitkanen could prove a potent pair, while Carson could line up with anyone from Pothier to Rodney to a new acquisition. McBain could also play alongside Carson and the team could make a play for a top-four blueliner, either via trade with their surplus of wingers or in the UFA market. If Pothier walks, the Canes will probably bring in at least two defenseman, perhaps re-signing Jay Harrison to play the No. 6/7 role and another d-man to finish off the roster. Don't rule out Cam Fowler, the draft's top defenseman and the likely third overall, for that spot as well.
As stated above, landing Pogge means, to me, that the team will use Peters to back up Ward next season and let Murphy and Pogge split duties in Charlotte.
Final Grade: Not moving Whitney could be a huge loss, but he did maximize the value of Corvo, Cullen, Wallin and Ward. The team has trimmed payroll, opened spots for young players to finish the year in Carolina, and stockpiled draft picks for this summer. The key to evaluating Rutherford will likely depend on three things: Will the team slow down and land a blue chip player at the draft, preferably a top-three pick?; Will the extra draft picks equal extra talent?; Can Osala be the answer for the Canes lack of size in their forward ranks, even if it takes another season for him to earn a spot? Those are big ifs. But overall, Rutherford did as much as could. Grade: B
* * *
Here's a look at the draft picks Carolina currently holds for the 2010 NHL Entry Draft.
1st Round: CAR 1st
2nd Round: CAR 2nd, BUF 2nd (Wallin deal), OTT 2nd (Corvo Cullen deal)
3rd Round: CAR 3rd, VAN 3rd (Alberts deal)
4th Round: BOS 4th (conditional: will be in 2010 or 2011)
5th Round: NSH 5th (due to Darcy Hordichuk not signing with CAR last offseason after team acquired his rights for CAR 5th in 2009)
6th Round: CAR 6th, COL 6th (Yelle trade)
7th Round: CAR 7th, WSH 7th (Walker trade)
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Great assessment here. We dumped salary, opened spots, and still kept or gained respect with our player dealings. Fans may just throw around trades and the worth of a player, but these are real people situations that Rutherford handles well.
That being said, I hope the Whitney non-trade doesn’t come back to bite us. I think Colton Teubert would have a great been part of that deal with LA.
That's Chuck and the letter 'K'
Considering the circumstances, Rutherford did a good job selling off any expiring asset that wasn’t nailed to the floor. The rest of the season might hurt, but 6 picks in the first 3 rounds should help ease the pain. Picard is a good young player that can grow with the team and Osala has a lot of potential (glad you mentioned him).
Bottom line, they took advantage of teams that were desperate to make the push. For guys that were out the door on July 1st, that’s not bad at all…
View From My Seats
Sarcasm: God's gift to smart people...
I agree with everything except one. I think Whitney staying is a wonderful thing,. I love Ray Whitney. Why let him go? Believe it or not, we are not eliminated. We can still make the playoffs THIS year. Whitney helps us do that.
Considering an 8 point deficit and a schedule that has Wash, Pitt, Phoenix, Boston, Wash in the next 5….playoffs are unlikely at best….I still believe however the Florida loss hurts.
12 – 5 over the next 17 would give us 24 more points..totals = 85 points…That means if either Montreal / Boston / Rangers go .500 they would have 87 plus points…we are out.
Not to mention Tampa / Florida are both above us.
Keep winning and we will see in a week!
Why let Whitney go? Maybe because the Canes are playing meaningless games and JR could of had a nice return for renting out Whitney for that time and signing him again on July 1. Maybe because as a small market team you have to take advantage of every break that comes your way, like somehow having the top rental on deadline day, to stay competitive in the long term.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
I think you and I should give up the ghost on this one CL. No matter how much logic you throw out there, there will still be people that feel strongly about Whitney staying. But that is why we are fans and not the GM. The GM has to look at things objectivly (the way I think you,I and a few others are) and not let emotions dictate desicions. If people would fully grasp it is only 20 games that we are trading away, they might sway their opinion a bit. But you got to love the debate.
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
We really like Brian Pothier a lot in Washington – he is awesome on and off the ice. And I see he’s already busy logging top minutes for the ’Canes blue line.
And your two guys are already working hard in Capsland. So, thanks GMJR!
Now helping to keep an eye on all things Gr8 at Alex Ovetjkin.
Thanks for the heads up. Been meaning to get a Caps fan’s reaction on the trade. Seemed like the common thought on Jasper’s Rink on trade day was that you guys didn’t upgrade with the addition of Corvo, and that the loss of Pothier would hurt your team.
Curious if you all still think that way….
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
I’m not a D-man expert, but Corvo brings a little more snarl to the game I think. The Caps had to get a little meaner.
Chimera, Walker, Corvo – all those guys can jump ugly if need be. And our core players have been getting a little grittier too.
Now helping to keep an eye on all things Gr8 at Alex Ovetjkin.
Corvo is one of the most underrated O-D-men in the league and his D isnt half as bad as some like to think.
I like what I see out of Pothier, you can tell he’s still getting used to the surroundings and style but his outlet pass is quick and on the money.
+1
I think Corvo is suffering some of the fate that Patrice Brisebois faced. Though I think Corvo is much better, they both played for Candian teams and have names that are easy to dog on. Uh-Oh! Corvo and Patrice Breeze-by are just too easy to pass up. It may or not be fitting, but it sticks. Corvo is a better player in both ends IMO but I think that his rep in Ottawa is what people remember (outside of CAR), we know better, but sometimes a great nickname is hard to kick.
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
It seems like he isn’t all that good defensively, but the stats beg to differ. Looking like the stats had this one right.
CИДHИЙ KPOCБИЙ: АЛEKCAHДP OBEЧKИH, OH CEЙЧAC TBOЙ ПAПA
by red army line on Mar 9, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Walker and Corvo
Both Walker and Corvo were excellent pick ups by the Caps. Both players have no fear of being in clutch situations. Walker is a warrior and Corvo will prosper in the more wide open offense in Washington. I hope Walker gets the Stanley Cup he deserves.
I can see Corvo struggling a bit in the more wide open Washington system. It could hurt his ability to get the puck out of the zone if he doesn’t have easy places to dump the puck to like he does here in Carolina. That said, I can just as easily see him succeeding the way you describe ADOug.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
Corvo looked shell shocked
last night against the Stars. I believe he was on the ice for all 3 goals and all his possessions of the puck looked timid and like a deer in headlights. He seems to have lost his confidence again. I hope he gets it back soon.
by packpigskinfan25 on Mar 9, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
or hopefully he doesn’t, so he pines for the days he played here and therefore wants to come back during the summer at a nice discounted price =P
after I posted
I thought that exact same thing!!! =)
but with a guy like Corvo, we all know confidence goes a long way. If the Cap fans dont like what they see- they will rip him apart.
by packpigskinfan25 on Mar 9, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
I think Carolina’s system is very well suited to Corvo as Corvo is well suited to the system. He has offense, and can make a pass to spring a forward on an odd-man rush, but this system which gives him easy outlet passes allows him to only make those difficult passes when they present themselves. It hides his weaknesses (although turning over the puck on a long pass is hardly a weakness) and maximizes his strengths. I honestly think I would prefer Corvo back over Cullen provided he can be signed at a reasonable cost.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
Re: Walker
When we let Walker go we got a big bonus. We all want to see him get a Stanley Cup and with Washington he has a good chance. His getting the RING would make all Canes fans happy I believe. He’s a real trooper and an even better person.
by FoxtrotSierra on Mar 9, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
It would be bitter sweet, but I would love to see Scotty Walker hoist the Stanley Cup. I just wish it would have been Chicago that took him. It would be much easier to swallow Chicago winning the cup.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
I think you are assesment of Corvo is pretty close, but I do think there is an upside for Washington. If/when Corvo settles down a bit, he could be dangerous. Think back to some of Joes prettiest goals. He is very good at walking the puck down a bit from the point and picking his shot. A perfect shot is impossible to defend. With the stars that Was has it can cause the D to back down and open up space/time for Corvo pinching a bit from the point. Its hard to discribe but think back to last years playoff run. Corvo was a beast with wristers from just out side the hashmarks.
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
This is great Cory. Thanks for all the insight and summarizing everydeal after the dust has settled and I can get my brain around the big picture. I am liking Pothier who I really didn’t know before last week. Seems to be a great addition for the season, and maybe beyond. Who knows?
I like your observations about Rutherford taking care of Yelle. To me that says a lot about JR. And Scotty to the Caps is magic. (Great for him. I’ll reserve judgment on whether I can root for the Caps in the post-season)
the story did bring up 2 questions though.
1 – if Brind`Amour retires, seems like the comments have said that the Canes don’t have to pay his salary, but his contract still counts against the team’s salary cap. Is that accurate?
2. – Is the 2nd rounder we got (with Osala and Pothier) for Corvo happening in 2010 or 2011? In your summary of the 2010 pick above, you list it – but maybe that’s left over from when we acquired him and Eaves from Ottawa? (not from the recent deal with the Caps). I thought it was in 2011.
Olympian Tim Gleason in Vancouver: "I don’t care what anybody says, to watch an exciting hockey game, there’s nothing like it."
It’s my understanding that the Caps used their 2010 second-rounder in the trade for Eric Belanger and we picked up their 2011 second-rounder in the Corvo-Pothier-etc. trade.
Sees the world through ruuu-colored glasses...
Sisu
by LTD on Mar 8, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
That is correct. Ive mentioned before, the only thing i regret about the Coro trade is JR didn’t pull the trigger b4 minny.
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
OTT 2nd should say (Cullen deal), not Corvo deal. I’ll fix when I’m at a CPU. HMO2- you can fix of you get to it before me.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 8, 2010 7:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But that makes sense now. I should have figured out it was the Cullen deal (that was SO long ago).
(I’m don’t have security clearance yet to edit your posts. Some day, maybe,when I show I can resist making hottie comments. I’m not sure it’s worth the trade-off though.)
Olympian Tim Gleason in Vancouver: "I don’t care what anybody says, to watch an exciting hockey game, there’s nothing like it."
Brindy's Contract
You are correct on Brindy’s contract. If he retires the team won’t have to pay him, but his salary will count towards the cap because he was over 35 when he signed the deal. I don’t think his cap hit will hurt us given salary projections for next year.
On an interesting note, if a team wanted to fool around with the salary floor they could acquire Brindy’s rights and then he could retire from that team. The cap hit would count towards the floor. I doubt this will happen. One, deals like this have yet to take place in the NHL. Two, the teams most likely to flirt with the floor in seasons past, LA and Phoenix, will make the playoffs. Three, JR wants Roddy to retire here. It could happen though.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
I think the league would step in finally. I thought they would with the rediculously (Sp) long contracts that get around the cap hit. They didn’t but if a team was to play the CBA like a fiddle and trade for a player in that situation, they might finally crack down on teams using fuzzy math.
There is apparently a clause that prohibits teams from getting too creative,lol. I would hate to be a fan of a team that would do that. But you are right it could happen
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
If the league didn’t come down hard on the Hossa contract, I can’t see them having a problem with the Brindy, but you never know.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
That was kinda my point. I could see it going eaither way. Enough might be enough or they may just stick with the status quo. The NHL is wierd sometimes, I’ve always said of these things:right or wrong just be consistant. That is one thing they are not.
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
great article, i wouldnt mind having pothier back, i always liked him, and his comeback from concussions is a good story, but a possible danger if it happened again – but remember on caps in the days b4 mike green pothier was their #1 guy
Not to be a negative Nellie, and not to rag on Pothier who has looked solid in his first few games with the Canes, but the Capitals before Mike Green (and Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, etc) were also not a very good team. Just saying that Pothier is not really a #1 guy, unless it is on a bad team.
He will get a fair shot at inserting himself into the Canes future plans over the next couple of months.
Sort of an extended tryout. I see him as a solid veteran depth guy on the blue line, which is not a bad position to be in considering the youth we have coming up on defense.
-m
Great writeup Cory. I pretty much agree with the grade, but I think it’s conditional of how Whitney goes. I’m really hoping that him and JR can come to an arrangement (I’d like to see a 2-year deal, maybe 3.5 then 3 mil). But JR did get great returns with Corvo and Cullen. I’ve like what I’ve seen with Pothier so far and it’s going to be interesting to see what happens in the off-season.
Excellent article. I’m not sure if Boychuck will be ready for a spot on the top 6 next season, at least not from game 1. He gets pushed off the puck pretty easily, especially when he tries to take the puck into the attacking zone, seeing him in person on Thursday I noticed that the opposing defenseman would corral him into the boards and take the puck with ease. Hopefully I’m wrong and he’ll make the proper adjustments now that he’ll be getting quality minutes the rest of the way.
by I am... Bobby Fierce! on Mar 8, 2010 7:41 PM EST reply actions
I think you’d be surprised how much weight and strength a guy can put on in one summer once they’re being trained by a top-level strength team. See Brandon Sutter. I expect him to add more in his legs, b/c he’s never going to overpower someone with his upper body.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 8, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
I think a B is a fair grade, but I’ll be interested to see what else JR does leading up to the draft and what his “budget” for the salary cap will be next year.
For the 11 forwards under contract and the 2 defensemen plus Cam and Pete-Dawg and Kaberle’s buyout the Canes have a cap number of rough $46 million next year (nhlnumbers). Will PK let the Canes spend north of $52 million, or will they be closer to $50 mill? I know cap numbers and dollars don’t always match; Staal’s cap hit is $750k higher than his salary and I threw in the Wizard at 3.25 and Cam and Justin Peters totaling $7 million. But I don’t see them spending like they did in 09-10.
I’m looking forward to seeing how the roster gets reshaped. Young, cheap talent from the Rats looks to be the biggest focus for filling out the roster; I can’t see how the Canes would spend more than minimal money on free agents, including Collen, Corvo, Porthier, and Picard’s RFA year.
They are going to have a lot of cap space, but I am curious to see what they do with it. As you said, PK will determine the self imposed cap. But if he allows a $52 million cap, what will they do with it? Much of it will go to resigning guys like:
Definitely: B. Carson, A. Picard, J. Tlusty, J. Peters, B. Rodney
Possibly: The Wizard, B. Pothier, T. Conboy, J. Harrison, J. Samson
If we sign all the “definites”, how much $$$ will that take? Then if some of the “possibles” are signed, that will take even more. I seriously doubt the Canes are going to be big spenders in the FA market.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
We need to be careful about discussing cap space and budget, b/c the money that’s going out is diff. than the cap space the team will have, esp. if Rod retires. But Staal and Cam’s deals are more backloaded.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 8, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
When have we ever been a big player in the FA market?
Brind’Amour is going to have to retire and Whitney is going to have to accept $2 million a year if we want anything to happen.
Carson – $1.5-2 million, I would guess less however he has been playing a top-4 role for us all year and he has arbitration rights as an RFA. If it went to arbitration he would certainly get at least $1.5-2, but that is the price we pay for having him up on our top-4 ally ear.
Picard – $1-1.5 million – he will get last pairing D money.
Tlusty – $1-2 million – I’d be willing to guess JR will play a game the rest of the season trying to keep him in the AHL and his value at a minimum but $1 million seems like a very low-ball estimate.
J. Peters – $750k-1 million – Backup goalie money
B. Rodney – $1-1.5 million – Wouldn’t be surprised if he was too expensive to re-sign given all their D.
Thats about $5 million. Adding Ray’s $2 million that would be $7 million and we would be at total $49 million already. I don’t think they will resign Pothier as he is old, barely a top-4 D, and is one hit away from his career ending and our Defense being shot. Therefore the remaining $2-4 million will hopefully be spent on a top-4 D and depth Center/Forward. Given JR’s nauseating tendency to cling to what he knows I wouldn’t be surprised to see Seidenberg back.
Now if Rod retires, which is probably unlikely seeing as that would mean Rod would have to forfeit $3.5 million dollars (which I don’t think he would do even if it meant hurting the team), we have a much bigger chunk of change to work with. Although given how cheap the Canes are, they would probably just pocket it.
I only said that about being spenders in the FA market because of this cut down in salary. I said I didn’t expect them to do anything in FA. Most of this money will be used to resign players.
Still think Pothier can play his way onto next years roster. Guy has been a pleasant surprise so far.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Speaking of Seidenburg, I heard somewhere a few days after the deadline that he had signed an extension in Boston. Did anyone else hear this? Has anyone else seen this or am I just mixing something up?
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Hey Cory, thanks for breaking this all down. As always, a very fine job!
I know I’ve said it a million times, but I was shocked (SHOCKED) that the Wizard didn’t go at the deadline. For now Ima gonna trust JR and Ray, but IMO there has to be something more to that “non-trade” than meets the eye.
Sees the world through ruuu-colored glasses...
Sisu
LTD, I think it’s two things. Ray was not in a hurry to leave, and no team knocked JR’s socks off with an offer. The Canes are better with the Wizard than without him, and I think this is an example of JR being smart enough to not just make a deal. Ray should re-sign for a year or two and let the young guys soak up his knowledge and coolness.
Weird thing just happened…as I’m typing this my Ruutu bobble head started nodding. WEIRD!!
Eh, I’m just trying to justify how I could have been so wrong.
But you must be right. The bobblehead has spoken. Believe.
Sees the world through ruuu-colored glasses...
Sisu
by LTD on Mar 8, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
I know Whitney wants to stay and play for Carolina. Jim Rutherford has been a strong advocate for Whitney. The non-trade of Whitney is an indication they both want to find a deal in Carolina that works for both Whitney and the Hurricanes organization.
That doesn’t really explain the alleged deal with the Kings tho.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 8, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
I really would like to know more about the so-called Kings deal. I think it was a classic case where Whitney wanted three years if he was going to be more than a rental; and LA didn’t want to trade a first round draft choice and a prospect for a rental. As a rental, Whitney would not have to move his family and would likely re-sign for next season with Carolina. With a one year deal in LA, he would run the real risk of burning bridges with Carolina in terms of going into the organization after he finishes his playing career.
Personally, I don’t see him as someone who will be in the org after he’s done. Nothing against him … it just seems tho spots are saved for the guys with a long history here, and Ray’s isn’t that long.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 8, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
I have heard a lot of things...
From a few people in the know that Whitney is being looked at to still stay with the organization after he retires. Just b/c he hasn’t been with the franchise forever doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be allowed to step in. I think he would do a great job as a coach or somebody high up.
Thank you Jim Rutherford and Ray Whitney for working together for Ray to stay a Hurricane! :)
What can Whitney bring of value to the organization off the ice? Brindy can work in player development, that’s a natural fit. Glen can work with the blue-liners. Whitney would have only minimal value for working with the forwards as he would be at best a complimentary piece to Brindy and Francis. Unless there is all the sudden a third seat in the booth for Whitney to call games with John and Tripp then there is no spot in the organization for him.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
I don’t really see Brindy working in player development. Don’t get me wrong he is a standup guy and well respected by the organization, but there really is nothing that suggests that is something he would strive in. At least no more than to suggest that Whitney wouldn’t be a worthwhile coach. There is a significant amount of talk about both Rod and Ray returning to the franchise once their playing days are complete. As we learned with the Whitney trade deadline debate, we can speculate all we want, but until something is announced, it is all just opinions and personal evaluations to what capacity would best suite, if at all, these players in the organization post-playing career.
I get it. You like Ray Whitney. That’s fine. But to say that Whitney could be a coach, or is better suited to player development than Rod Brind’Amour who was captain and worked out with the young players a lot is simply ludicrous. When was the last time you saw Ray lean over on the bench and say something to a young player? When has a player said that Whitney’s work ethic was a motivating factor? I like the guy, but I’m also realistic to what he brings to the table.
The organization has greatly expanded it’s player development staff recently. This has led to a lot of jobs available for ex-players. However, that department is close to if not fully staffed. The jobs will be limited. I don’t see where Whitney fits in, and I don’t see where he brings more to the table than other players. Futhermore, I don’t want the front office to be the landing spot for every ex-player. That’s not a recipe for success.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
Whitney as a coach
Actually, Whitney is very highly regarded for doing the things you suggest. Again, since I don’t quote people with whom I have discussions about the Hurricanes because I am not a press/media person, I think it would be really informative to get a chance to talk to people in the organization. I very respectfully suggest the organization holds Whitney in high regard for doing the things you are mentioning as part of his role on the team. Whitney is a very supportive, energetic person. He also his extremely articulate and has a very intense sense of humor.
Just b/c you don't see it on the bench...
Doesn’t mean you get to see it in the locker room. On the bus. On the plane. Or anywhere else the Cameras are not catching things.
Thank you Jim Rutherford and Ray Whitney for working together for Ray to stay a Hurricane! :)
Coaches coach all the time, not just behind closed doors.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
Just as coaches don’t always coach in the open???
I think suggesting just because you don’t see it, means it doesn’t happen just a ridiculous as you claim my remarks to be. Jeff Daniels, never really a strong player beyond 4th line duty, does that mean he can’t teach players on how to be better? If everything was determined by credentials that you “can see” there would be a lot of coaches that wouldn’t be in the favorable positions they’re in. Coaching is based on coaching, not playing. Not all great players make coaches, just like not all great coaches could play. Your claims that the player development staff is nearly full and you don’t want it to be a dumping ground for ex-players, yet you suggest Rod be one of them. If we’re to have limits on such actions, what component of entry is going to be used? As I said before, we can speculate all we want, but in the end its just speculation. I like Ray and Rod, but my thoughts on either, both, or neither joining the Canes staff are based on the comments from JR.
I was just suggesting I thought he would be a good coach, I was not saying I’m right, you’re wrong or vice versus.
+1000
I am hoping Bob or Cory will ask Jim Rutherford his take on Whitney staying on the with organization. I very respectfully suggest that the organization has been clear how much it admires Whitney. Whitney is a leader on the ice and he is a leader in the locker room. He also has a sense of humor but is a fierce, fierce competitor. I would characterize Whitney as a person who exerts positive leadership but also is unrelenting in his desire to win. Whitney is also extremely well-respected has having an amazing hockey mind. Those characteristics make him an ideal candidate to stay with the organization. I personally believe he will be behind the bench for the Hurricanes some time in the future.
I could not disagree with you any more on this. Whitney is a fine player, but he isn’t a coach. Nothing about his work ethic suggests he can be a coach. I’m not saying he doesn’t work hard, he does. He doesn’t go that extra mile that players like Brind’Amour do.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
Time will tell. My bet/guess is that Whitney coaches and that Brind’Amour goes into the organization in community relations and perhaps weight/strength/conditioning coaching. One of us is going to be right and one will not. Since it is projecting into the future, we’ll have to wait to see. It does make for interesting discussion and conjecture.
I wouldn’t say they’re reserved for long standing Cnaes. Yes, Daniels, Francis and Wesley all have had a long portion of their careers in the Whalers/Canes franchise, but Tom Barrasso played here for a very limited time. Our organization is very high on him as a coach and it seems that Whitney is in the same category; however, I could see him being a more behind the scenes guy, scouting, limited coaching role, instead of an immediate significant coaching spot.
Barrasso is a buddy of Francis from his Pittsburgh days. I won’t deny that his hiring worked out well, but he got the job because he knew Francis. At the time there was significant worry that with Francis in the front office that the team would become a landing spot for a lot of Ronnie’s buddies.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
If those buddys are like Barrasso I think we can all deal with that,lol.
I think Ray would do well in a developmental role with the Org, but I think to do that job well you would have to travel alot. Luckily Charlotte will be where alot of prospect play from here on out, but I’m not sure if he would be up to it, or even do it the way it would need to be done.
Im more concerned about Ray Whitney the player right now than anything eles
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
How can Ray help develop players? What about him specifically makes you think he will do in a player development role?
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Having had the chance to speak with Ray Whitney a few times, I am really impressed with his personality and his knowledge of the game. He has been involved in hockey since being a stick boy for Edmonton. He is accessible and extremely humble. He also has a tremendous will to win. He is the model of a professional and loves to talk about the nuances of hockey. He is a natural coach and would help young players development. He has proven himself to be a winner and has a winner’s attitude toward the game.
Not to be rude, but I am wondering if you have spoken to Whitney before or whether your impressions are more from watching Whitney play?
I have spoken to Whitney, but only a few words. I’m basing my opinions on him of what I’ve seen him do on the ice. We sit in a location where we can watch the benches during games. I notice who is talking to who on the bench. I also notice who leads stretches, skates, etx at practice. I’ve not seen this leadership in Whitney. Perhaps it’s all behind closed doors, but as I’ve said before, coaches have to coach all the time. I don’t see that commitment out of Whitney. He’s a great player, but I don’t see the intangibles it takes to make a good coach.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Look at how much Sutter developed when he was on a line with Whitney earlier in the year. During the games I attended, Sutter was constantly talking to Whitney during TV timeouts and breaks in the action. Whitney knows the game, knows how to see a play or two ahead, and knows how to communicate this to younger players.
Whether he wants to be a coach after he retires is another question. He’s got the experience and the competitiveness and the force of personality to succeed, and denying that is just hating on Whitney. Like your sig.
It would have been much more in LA’s interest to trade for a rental as opposed to a roster player. LA has very little playoff experience on the roster right now. That will change after this season. Bringing in a playoff veteran as a rental would bridge that gap.
Furthermore, the core of the team will be getting raises, the most pressing of which will be Alexander Frolov. After seeing how much Boston struggled after dealing Kessel do you think there is anyway that LA would jepordaize re-signing Frolov by taking on salary commitments for next year?
LA has the chips in the organization to trade a player like Tuebert and a second rounder for a top rental. They’ve got other blue line prospects and they would still retain this seasons first.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
Boston
Boston is the team that should have make a rental deal with Carolina. I think it was pure stubbornness by the Boston GM. Certainly the asking price was high; but now with Savard out with a head injury, the Bruins have to realize how much better off they would be if they had Whitney for the playoff chase.
I don’t know if Boston has the depth to make a great offer for Whitney. They may have been willing to move out picks, but I don’t know what they have in their organization. I get the feeling, and mind you this is based on very limited knowledge, that Boston is looking at restocking their team and system at this draft. I mean, they should have a high first and a high second from Toronto to go with their own picks. Falling out of the playoffs wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for the Bruins.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
Boston has some of the best young, big, fast power forwards in its system of any NHL team. They definitely got ahead of the NHL curve in selecting power forwards in the Blake Wheeler mode.
Boston is going to be sick when you add the picks for TOR. They do have ALOT of those power forward and/or big bodied types. They should rebound quickly
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree. The non-trade of the Wizard is not necessarily an indication that he will resign with the Hurricanes; it is what it is – speculation.
Who knows why or why not he wasn’t traded- nobody but JR and him. There are frankly too many vairables….maybe JR wasn’t getting offered what he wanted for him, maybe the Wizard simply didn’t want to move his family at this time to a “potential” contender….ultimately, all it means is that they both agree to continue the current contract with the ’Canes.
We won’t know until the offseason.
by PittsburghCaniac on Mar 9, 2010 2:29 AM EST up reply actions
I think you are spot on GIllimus with regard to JR not getting enough of a reward, I just disagree with abramsdoug….but then again, what the heck do I know, the Canes aren’t knocking on my door to hire me!
by PittsburghCaniac on Mar 9, 2010 2:32 AM EST up reply actions
He got enough reward from LA to take the deal to Ray. To say JR didn’t get enough in return is to ignore the fact that Ray nixxed a deal to LA.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
Which is his right because of his no movement clause. I guess a more accurate statement would have been, outside of the LA deal, JR didn’t get the return he was looking for.
Also known as “Pittsburgh wouldn’t pony up and got a ‘meh’ player in Poni instead”
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 9, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
I still cannot believe that after Pittsburgh acquired Poni on Tuesday that Ray didn’t go to the Kings. His first choice, Pitt, was out of the running to pick him up. LA had yet to make a move at that point. All the pieces were there. Ray just had to say yes on Tuesday night. I get that LA isn’t a top contender this year, but how does Ray not help out this team?
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
I thought Modin was an underrated consolation prize. Good pickup.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 10, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
With the Canes playing so well...
the possibilities of that top 3 pick are likely to dwindle away completely before long…
however- What do you, who know the business side of the game more then me, think the possibilities of the Canes trading away their first rounder(likely a 5-8 pick) with one or possibly 2 of the 2nd rounders to move up to a top 3 pick? OR do you think it would take this years 1st and next years 1st(HOPEFULLY a late round pick)?
by packpigskinfan25 on Mar 8, 2010 10:56 PM EST reply actions
I would be shocked in the Hurricanes are able to move up to a top three pick by bundling. On the other hand, I like the first 10 to 15 picks in this draft. Hall and Sequin are far and away my first two preferences. Cam Fowler is my third preference. I don’t see the Hurricanes getting any of those three picks because too many other teams are collapsing now.
I don’t know too much about the top prospects out there. Since you seem to understand the quality of players available, is there a huge drop off from a top five pick this year to say a top 10-15 pick? Kinda like Crosby or Stamkos v. the rest of the field?
by PittsburghCaniac on Mar 9, 2010 2:38 AM EST up reply actions
The Canes could make a nice package of their first, perhaps their second and a player to move up to a top three pick. If Boston/Toronto were to lose the draft and end up with the #2 or #3 then I could see Boston making the move.
If there are hockey gods though the Canes will win the draft lottery and get to draft first or as high as possible based on their finish.
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
As a general Draft Rule the top-3 picks are untouchable. I would be amazed to see anyone trade away their top-3… Hall, Seguin, and Fowler are in their own category in terms of hype and potential.
We have a much better chance of just hoping the Draft lottery is kind to us. Though given our luck this year I’m not holding my breath.
+1
We could bundle Staal, Cam, and our first pick and have a hard time moving into the top 3. Boston especially seems hell-bent on keeping Toronto’s pick no matter what. We might be able to move from 8 to 5, though, depending on where we finish, with the extra picks we’ve picked up.
That being said, shuffling among the top four or five instead unheard of. The Canes — if they’re still in the bottom five of the league range — could do enough to move up a few spots into the top spot or two if they really like who is available.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 9, 2010 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
In the 2004 draft, which occurred within the friendly confines of the RBC Center, JR got a standing ovation from the crowd by trading upward with Columbus from eighth overall to fourth overall to select Andrew Ladd (now manifested as Tuomo Ruutu).
Cost our first rounder and our second rounder to move up, so we essentially burned a second rounder to move up from Alexandre Picard (the Columbus one, not ours) to Andrew Ladd → Tuomo Ruutu.
I am probably a crowd of one in hoping that the Hurricanes do not try to move up by trading a #2 draft choice. I think this draft is deep enough that other than the top five or six picks, the rest of the next 55 to 60 picks are basically equivalent. With many picks available in the top sixty picks, the Hurricanes can obtain some very impressive young talent.
Please see the post below quoting Jason Karmanos about the depth of the first two rounds — and comparing it to 2003.
I believe it’s a deep draft and I’ll be content with wherever we end up in draft position.
However, just pointing out a historical event in which we did move up a few spots in the first round, and all it cost was an early second-rounder (no players/prospects).
So, if we deem it necessary to move to get a targeted player before someone else, those second rounders can be the currency to do so.
Yes, I’ll be content to spend them all on ourselves…still, glad JR got Ladd and not “Picard” (or equivalent) in 2004.
The team will have excess forwards to move at the draft, this is a reason why I think Boston may be willing to trade down a few spots. They could get someone like Cole or Samsonov, if they’re interested in bringing him back, as part of the package. That would help Boston right now and in the future.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
To pry a top-three pick out of someone’s hands, I do assume it will take a player and/or hot prospect in addition to swapping some draft picks.
Depends on the other org’s needs. Lots of orgs may very well be interested in turning a future asset (“damn near sure thing” top-three pick) into a present asset (player under contract and/or hot prospect).
Good news is, we have lots of assets now. Players, as you mentioned, prospects, and draft picks.
JR should have some fun this summer.
I think Boston will be the easiest to get to move down. For instance, let’s figure Edmonton, who I don’t think is fielding a team any more, finishes last, followed by Toronto. If another team wins the lottery and drafts first, that puts Boston drafting third with Toronto’s pick. They may be willing to move down to five or six for a modest return. Anyone other than Boston though and I bet it would take a significant return.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Great article! I especially liked your point about JR taking care of players such as Yelle. I truly believe that JR is a fantastic GM, that knows how to “play the game.” I have a lot of confidence in him and feel as though he not only made our team younger, and shedded cap money, but opened up room for us to grow in the draft.
by PittsburghCaniac on Mar 9, 2010 2:20 AM EST reply actions
Top 5 or 6 picks
Here’s a summary of what I am reading. The consensus of scouting reports is that Hall, Seguin and Fowler are the top three prospects. There is a growing number of scouts who view other prospects as essentially equivalent to Hall, Seguin,and Fowler and that there are 5 to 10 players who are very likely to be impact NHL players in their first year. I’ll do a post sometime this week trying to summarize what I’ve read. My take is that this draft is much deeper than some people have been led to believe. There are at least 10 to 15 picks that will make significant contributions either by the start of the next season or no later than the season after — 2011-2012. In terms of players who will help their team in 2011-2012, I can identify at least 40 to 50 prospects who have an excellent chance of helping their team in 2011-2012; with perhaps 20 having a very reasonable chance of helping their team in 2011-2012.
I would take either Hall, Seguin, and Fowler in a nanosecond because their body of work has been very closely scrutinized; but by draft time, the list of very solid prospects will be fully vetted. There is an older fan post or two on the subject of the draft. I will update mine sometime this week.
Got links to some of these reports?
How will you feel if Whitney signs with another team in the summer?
I’ll do a separate post with links later in the week. Here are some links:
http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=11944
http://www.thescoutingreport.org/nhl-entry-draft-preliminary-top-15-rankings/
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=59880
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/11784/iss_top302010_prospects_january/
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/11872/iss_top302010_prospects_february/
http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=11944
http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/story/?id=307752
http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=7317
I will research some more and give more links later this week. Here is a start, however. I tend to look for converge of information to see if there is a pattern developing with regard to the draft in general and specific players.
another article
a quick article worth reading on Erik Gudbranson
D, Kingston (OHL)
6-foot-3 3/4, 195 pounds
Jason Karmanos on the Upcoming Draft
I was interested that Jason Karmanos indicated that this year’s draft is indeed deep and perhaps comparable to 2003. Here’s the article’s URL and I have quoted a portion below. I happen to agree that the first and second round likely draft choices are quite talented.
@@@@*******
http://hurricanes.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=520266
The 2010 Draft
There are no names associated with the six draft choices acquired by Carolina on deadline day, at least not yet. Combined with trades made earlier in the year, the Hurricanes now own 11 picks in the seven rounds of the 2010 draft as well as an extra second-rounder in 2011, according to General Manager Jim Rutherford.
How many of those picks will be used to select players remains to be seen, but all of them could prove valuable assets in one way or another. The three second-rounders in 2010 could prove particularly valuable, whether the team decides to select young players, move up in the draft or acquire players via trade.
"Going in, the consensus viewpoint is that this is a strong draft," said Karmanos. "Sometimes that means the top five is elite and sometimes it means that the scouting staff believes that the overall talent base of players extends late. This year it’s kind of both."
In fact, the crop of talent in this year’s draft class reminds Karmanos of a star-studded 2003 group that reads like a who’s who of today’s top young talent, including several All-Stars and Olympians.
"Going through the first- and second-round names on our list, I can tell you that it does remind me of 2003 in terms of the depth of talent throughout this draft in the first couple of rounds."
I think 10-15 players from the first round playing in the NHL within two seasons is pretty average.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 9, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
I'm Happy
You know, I would rather keep Whitney than get a crappy 20-something pick from a contender team that could go deep in the playoffs. I would have loved to be a fly on JR’s wall to see what prospects were being offered, but I really Like the Wiz and want him to retire a Cane.
The picks that we got + Picard seem to be looking good. A 2nd rounder for Wallin is awesome. A pick for Ward is awesome.
Sad to see Walker go. If I played hockey, it would be like him – fearless and loyal to his mates
One, a twenty something pick is better than nothing. Two, we know LA offered up a young d-player, likely Tuebert, and a second. Three he could always have signed back here in July and retired a Cane. Four, a twenty something pick generally isn’t that crappy, which is why no one traded a first rounder this deadline.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
you know I have been thinking about this and the only logical solution I can come up with is that Ray did not feel that LA was a contender this year, and he was unwilling to waive for a team he felt could not go all the way. Now LA is conceivably a contender in the next 3 years, considering their trajectory as of the past few years. So he says the only way I waive is if I get to be a part of the core going forward when they actually do contend, as opposed to just helping them get their feet wet this year.
Sure it is a selfish decision that robs us of valuable resources, but he earned the right to make that call. I, for one, wont fault him for looking out for himself.
His agent earned him the right to make that call ;)
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
IMHO (this may be a bit extream) but even a second rounder would have been enough for me to trade whitney at 2:59pm last Wednesday. Even a 7th is infinitely better than nothing. I’m not saying we should have traded him for a seventh, but Whitney has almost zero value to the team this year. 20 games to play (at the time) and no chance of making the playoffs. Thats why they play the game is it not? To make the playoffs. So, with an expiring contract on a team that has no chance of making the playoffs the only value that you can attribute to Whitney is the amount of tickets that are bought purley on the fact that Whitney is a member of the team. It would be hard to figure that out, and I doubt it would have a major impact on the bottom line.
by CarolinaCanes on Mar 9, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
I think that Whitney was the one who really screwed the team here and wasn’t really going to accept a move to any team except one that was a Cup favorite like Washington or Pittsburgh.
The teams that wanted him (like LA), he simply just didn’t want to go to. I think him asking from a 3 year extension from them was just his way of throwing a road block up.
The teams that Ray wanted to go to (Probably a VERY select few IE: Pittsburgh or Washington) just weren’t willing to give up a 1st rounder or anything that JR wanted.
I don’t blame JR for this one. I think Ray really put his nuts in a vice in this one and Rutherford probably knew from the beginning it was unlikely he would get moved.
I also think this will have little effect on where he goes this off-season. I do not think just because he wasn’t traded he will definitely be staying. Ray will go to the team that offers him the best deal for him and his family, certainly the Canes being his current home will factor into that decision, however I doubt JR will sacrifice the rebuilding of this team just to sign him for some ridiculous $3.5+ million dollar per year contract.
As in most cases, other teams will be able to throw out a sweeter deal and I really wouldn’t be surprised if we lost him.
But you have to remember that there are numerous reports that what LA offered was solely based on Whitney agree to a contract extension of 1 year. When he baulked and asked for a 3 year deal, LA said no we’re only offering 1, Whitney used his NTC and the deal was dead. To suggest we were trying to get more out of LA isn’t completely accurate because there are reports that say Whitney killed the deal with his demands (whether intentional so he could stay in NC now, or at least return in July), not JR. LA was not interested in Whitney as a true rental for the price we were asking. JR could have received a counter offer for what LA was willing to pay for a rental, which may not have been Teubert or Hickey and the 2nd.
LA did not initially offer a 1 year extension. That was their counter to Ray’s demands for a 3-year extension. This is an important piece of information that you seem to keep neglecting. Ray had the opportunity to be a rental and help his team and come back on July and he turned it down. If they wanted to keep him they would have negotiated after the season. LA was looking at Ray as a strict rental.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
C-Leaguer, I probably missed the articles referencing an initial offer by Whitney to serve as a rental player. If you have the links it would be great. I don’t doubt you; but I don’t remember seeing that information.
McKenzie original article. I can’t seem to find it. It was posted on another thread not too long back.
For some reason I can’t find anything on TSN today. Be it McKenzie’s article on the Whitney talk or the article from a few years back that gauged all the draft positions.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Finally found the article through google. Also, it was Dreger, not McKenzie. McKenzie sort of hints around the point in his article, but Dreger says “when this trade was proposed to [Whitney], he asked for a three-year extension and Los Angeles countered with one-year.”
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
See how this works out next year
Cory…Great analysis…Any chance you can make yourself a reminder to review this next year….I find that it is hard to grade shortly after the trades….However when the draft picks materialize into actual players then fans like us may be able to see what Corvo, Ward, Yelle, Walker, Alberts, Cullen, Wallin actually turned into.
Who knows this may turn into a situation like the Braves years ago where they traded Doyle Alexander to the Tigers at the trade deadline for a prospect named John Smoltz.
Best example ever might be Dallas’ acquisition of Joe Nieuwendyk in what would become their Stanley Cup winning season. Player that went back to Calgary? Jarome Iginla.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 9, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Jim Rutherford's Comments, including why Ray Whitney was not traded
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=520741
It is a very interesting interview. Here’s a portion with regard to Ray Whitney.
NHL.com: Were you ever close to dealing Ray Whitney?
Rutherford: A number of teams expressed interest in Ray. But, I took the same position all along. He’s one of the most popular players on the Hurricanes and one of the best, so if I didn’t see a deal that made sense for us, it wasn’t going to happen. Ray didn’t want to go anywhere. If a player wants to stay bad enough, we’ll wait for the proper time to negotiate.
When you live in the world of contracts, as JR does, a deal is, after all, a deal. Probably no hard feelings for Ray using the no-movement clause, bargained for in lieu of salary. Ray’s stats when that contract was negotiated were world-class.
Also, it’s my opinion that JR made a statement to the locker room when Ray wasn’t moved: “Yes, I do still believe.”
Two things
1) I’ve said this before, and I’ll repeat here, JR markets this team as a place where players are treated as people and not solely as pieces to be moved around a game board. If he says anything other than nice things about Whitney he does damage to that image. Since he was speaking after the deadline and Whitney wasn’t moved he had nothing to gain by trashing Whitney and everything to lose. As for a “deal that made sense”, we know JR took a deal from LA to Ray, so we know JR is outright lying in that statement. That clouds the entire statement.
2) JR wasn’t the one to chose to not move Ray. Ray was the one who chose. JR made no statement to the locker room. Ray did. Ray said with is actions: “This team being better next year isn’t worth twenty regular season games and a playoffs worth of my time.”
I do not understand people rushing to support Whitney when HE was the one to stand in the way of the team being better next season. If the GM did something like that I’d want him fired. When Keith Primeau did that during his contract hold out most fans were more than happy to see him go. Why the love affair with Whitney when he does the EXACT SAME THING.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
because he has EARNED it.
He is a fan fav for his play on the ice and his personality. NONE of us really wanted to see him in any other uniform in the first place. JR gave him the NTC in a legal contract and Ray held him to that. It would have been nice to have a good prospect plus another 1st rounder…. but we got to keep RAY.
Now if he does not resign with the Canes during the offseason- that will be a whole different story, and I believe the anger will start to show.
by packpigskinfan25 on Mar 10, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
I had no problems with Ray going to another team as a rental. We could have gotten Ray back July 1. What is so important about having Ray around for twenty games at the end of a season when the Canes won’t make the playoffs? Do you just love Ray Whitney so much that the thought of him not being on the team makes you want to fling yourself off a bridge? Can you not realize it’s a business decision, calm down until July 1 and be happy that Ray got a chance to play in the playoffs, that the team got a good reward for him being gone for a short period of time, and that he can come back if he wants to?
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
What is an NTC if not an option to be used?
We got something for that NTC, we got Ray at terms we otherwise wouldn’t have had. To rewrite history and now say that he should take whatever lower options he accepted in trade for that NTC, and spend 2 months away from his family with a team other than he wants to be on is… silly. Whatever his reasons are, they’re his reasons, and he’s earned the right to act on them.
You have every right to complain about giving him an NTC, but who knows how history would have panned out contract-wise if he didn’t have that clause. If he now wants to take one for the team and waive it, that’s his right, but to keep implying that he is screwing the team by not doing so over is to belittle the things he sacrificed for his current contract. Both sides accepted the terms, and it played out as the contract allowed.
by Raccoon Fink on Mar 10, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
He has every right to act on his NTC. It doesn’t change the fact that a guy who was been shown loyalty to time and time by an organization and who is supposed to be a leader on this team did a selfish thing. Plain and simple Ray put himself in front of the team and the organization.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
And which of our players has not acted in their own interest? Clearly this is dog bites man, not the other way around.
After a 51-32-83 season, playing 81 games of the ‘06-’07 season, Ray signed a three-year contract at $3.55M/yr.
I seriously doubt that we would have signed him so affordably without that no-movement (even higher than a no-trade) clause.
Resent him if you must. But don’t ask me to do so.
wow passion....
I think your reading a little too deep into what I said there buddy.
What I mean by “we got to keep Ray” is that he hasnt gone to LA and signed a 1-3 year deal. SO we still have a VERY large shot of him being a Cane next season.
I personally would have loved to see Ray play for another team as a rental… it would have been hard, but if that is what he wanted then he deserved that to.
JR gave him that NTC. Your beef is with JR.
by packpigskinfan25 on Mar 10, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Ray is in no different position now then he would of been had he gone to LA as a rental. Don’t forget, LA was not the party that wanted to extend Ray’s contract, Ray was. There is the same chance of Ray being a Cane next year now as there would be if he had gone to LA as a rental. LA only offered the 1-year after Ray demanded 3 years.
I’m not saying JR isn’t partially to blame. I’ve said elsewhere that he should have these NTCs end on February 1 of the final year. That said, it’s pretty standard for players to waive NTCs in the final year of a deal, especially if it can help out the team they are currently on and they intend to return. Players waiving the NTC in the final year if their team is not going to the playoffs is one of the unwritten rules of the game.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
on paper
it may not seem he is in any different position…but it seems like it to me.
I have read many different versions of what happened with the Kings deal, and from the best of my knowledge it seems like Ray didnt want to go to LA at all really- but figured he would try to see if he could get 3 years out of it(a smart move for a guy his age). When they come back with one year- he thinks “screw that… I can get that here in Raleigh, where I like it anyways”
of course this all goes back to the “if Ray signs in Carolina during the offseason” theory. If he does not, then I am completely wrong.
by packpigskinfan25 on Mar 11, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
1) At the trading deadline press interview, JR stated that he had taken a trade offer a month earlier from LA to Ray that the org liked, but Ray had refused, as was his right. He then said that he heard no offers up to the trade deadline that he deemed worthy of taking to Ray. So, no discrepancy there.
2) Totally agree that Ray refused the initial deal (the only one apparently offered to him). At that same press conference, JR said something like quite frankly, Ray didn’t want to go anywhere.
I get that you’re angry with Ray for “stand[ing] in the way of the team being better next season”. But, really, what would be Ray’s motivation for going to LA as a rental to help a team that he’s not even under contract to be a part of next season? It’s not like LA is realistically going anywhere in the playoffs, either.
In lieu of salary, he negotiated a no-movement clause. But, he should toss it away and move to the other side of the country for a few months for nothing?
Yeah, may help his contract value for next year. But, so would being Staal’s binky (or whatever role they put him in) here and allow him to stay close to home. Who knows what his role would have been in LA, or if anyone would even notice.
If he made the org and/or JR mad with that decision, then I suspect we see no contract from us this summer and/or a battle over worth.
I’m also thinking there’s a statement in all of this from JR to both his fellow GM’s and the locker room. To his GM’s, he established a price and didn’t blink, which will definitely help his cause in future negotiations. To his locker room, it does make a statement when you keep a big scoring piece, even when in the midst of a wholesale UFA fire sale.
Here’s the thing, if Ray wants to play here next season, why would he not want to play on the best Hurricanes team possible? Moving Ray to get Tuebert and a second pick would make the team better next year than not moving Ray. If he’s not interested on playing on the best team possible is he really worth having around?
Again, you say move for nothing, but playing well in the playoffs increases salary. Additionally, if he comes back to a better team, get to the playoffs increases his personal satisfaction, and potentially his salary here. This argument that he would receive “nothing” for his troubles is short sighted at best and more accurately absolutely incorrect.
To say LA isn’t realistically going anywhere in the playoffs is to show ignorance of the western conference. LA sits at five right now, just behind Phoenix. LA has good young talent and one of the best goaltenders in Jonathan Quick. They might not be a favorite, like Chicago or San Jose , but both of those teams have goaltending issues, and goaltending is the most important thing in the playoffs. There’s still Vancouver to worry about, but getting to the conference finals would be a huge boon for LA and definitely would not be not “going anywhere”. He also certainly would not go “unnoticed” on LA as LA has been looking to fill it’s top line winger position since Justin Williams went down earlier in the season.
I can agree with JR setting a price, and not blinking. If that were the case, I would be okay with it. He can’t let Ray go for nothing because that would tarnish negotiations with other GMs for years. But I can’t get fully behind that because of the LA deal. We know JR’s price was met at some point.
If JR wanted to make a statement to the locker room why not keep Corvo and Cullen? It’s not consistent to trade Corvo and Cullen and to keep Whitney.
I’m not denying that Ray was within his rights to nix a trade. But Keith Primeau was within his rights to hold out. Both players damaged the team by their actions. Were you in support of Primeau holding out? If not, how can you be in support of Ray not waiving his NTC? Both players harmed the team by their actions. Both players did it for selfish reasons. Both players did it for a modest cost (Keith in terms of dollars for his contract, Ray in terms of an absence from his family, however Ray had more ability to benefit after the fact as he would be able to negotiate a contract still). If you were upset with Keith Primeau you should be upset with Ray Whitney.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Both players damaged the team by their actions.
They didn’t “damage the team,” they failed to do even more for the team than they already have. The NTC was money in the pocket some time in the past for the organization, in return, Ray got a little control over whether he’s uprooted. Done. Fair trade.
Would I have liked to get something for him and know he could come back next season? Absolutely. Do I think he’s a horrible person who destroyed the Hurricanes by using his NTC he gained fairly in exchange for an otherwise better contract for the organization? Absolutely not.
by Raccoon Fink on Mar 10, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
If you don’t allow your team to take advantage of a golden opportunity you damage the team. It’s an opportunity cost to use an economics term.
I don’t see any refutation in the comparison between Primeau’s actions and Whitney’s. So I go back to this: Did you support Primeau in his hold out? If you didn’t how do you support Whitney?
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
I didn’t really follow his hold out, so I didn’t comment on it specifically. But in general, I think my point stands on the NTC. The team got something from it, and for it to be somehow understood that you’re supposed to waive it anyways or you’re a pariah just means players will stop giving favorable terms in exchange for an NTC.
by Raccoon Fink on Mar 10, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Waiving your NTC in the final year of your deal is standard operating procedure for NHL players. You say you did follow Primeau’s hold out so I can only assume you’re new to the sport. Let me put this point blank: players who are tradeable and in the final year of their deal will usually waive their NTC to be a playoff rental. This is done for two reasons.
1) If the player wants to return to the team he is currently on that team will be improved by the return they will receive for trading said player.
2) A players value is higher after a deep playoff run. The player is rewarded with a better contract for his play in the playoffs
The system is mutually beneficial as players who plan on returning to their original team, as Doug Weight and Mark Recchi did after coming to Carolina in 2006, do not have to move their families for such a short time with another team. Players who want to leave are given the opportunity to showcase their talent and perhaps get in with a better team.
Asking Whitney to waive his NTC at this point in the season is nothing more than standard operating procedure.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Not new to the sport, but only in the last few years have I had the time and inclination to keep up with it league-wide, rather than just following how the ’Canes are doing.
I understand how the NTC is often used, but to stretch that to it being expected is what I think is wrong. There are a lot of factors involved in decisions like this, and to feel betrayed by him actually taking advantage of a part of his contract is what I don’t get.
Being annoyed by the situation is totally understandable, his contract put him in a situation where he could say no. Being angry he actually used a portion of his contract that he paid for with a less advantageous (to him) contract is what I just can’t understand. Clearly he has reasons for his decision other than just choosing between being a rental and leaving, and from the outside you just can’t know what happened in the negotiations — no matter how many times people repeat trade rumors until they sound like fact.
I’ve seen enough of Ray that I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s a good guy and has done a lot for the team, and he’s earned the right to use that NTC if he wants to without being nailed to the wall for it.
by Raccoon Fink on Mar 10, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
EXACTLY
It may be a standard practice within the NHL, but why should we EXPECT it from a player? Sure it sucks that we didnt get the return that was offered… or could have been else where- but the man did what he is contractually(and IMO deserved) allowed .
by packpigskinfan25 on Mar 11, 2010 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
If it’s standard practice, then it is by definition to be expected.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
ehhh....
I would not say that.
Standard practice is to also give one of your biggest play makers a NTC.
Standard practice is to make sure you keep your biggest play makers a part of your team.
Standard practice(as long as they are not delusional about their abilities like Chelios and BrindAmour) is to retire a part of the franchise a player has had the most impact at.
Of course this is all back to the whole “if Ray resigns with Carolina” theory….
Ray Whitney has been one of the biggest(if not THE biggest) play maker of this team for the past few years.
by packpigskinfan25 on Mar 12, 2010 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
why should someone be “expected” to do something that their contract specifically says they are not forced to do?
Is it not also standard practice to refuse such offers? That happens a lot in the NHL as well.
by packpigskinfan25 on Mar 12, 2010 2:00 AM EST up reply actions
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