Should The Hurricanes Re-sign Ray Whitney?
by Bob Wage on May 20, 2010 3:30 PM EDT
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On Tuesday, we spoke briefly about some updated information released regarding the Carolina Hurricanes recent dealings with Anton Babchuk and Ray Whitney, (an article I labeled as "not-breaking", which was incorrect on my part. Sorry about that.)
Since it seems that the Canes and Whitney might get together soon to discuss new contract terms, it leads to a question. Is bringing back the veteran for another year or two the best course of action for the Hurricanes? There are a few other free agents available and looking at them might make more sense.
Whitney had a decent year in 2009-10 as he scored 21 goals and picked up 37 assists in 80 games. But, "The Wizard" is 38 years old and his game figures to deteriorate a bit as he gets older. His production has slipped in recent years as his 58 points is the lowest since 2005-06 when he had 55 points, (but in only 63 games played).
The winger earned $3,550,000 in each of the last three years but probably will earn less than that in his next contract. How much less is anyone's guess, but let's take a quick look at some other free agents who look to be available on July 1st, and who could be signed at a similar rate.
Matt Cullen: C age 32, earned $2,800,000 last season, 16 goals, 32 assists, and 48 points in 81 games.
Cullen does not have the same skill level that Whitney does, but he is younger, can kill penalties, and can play center or wing. He will most likely sign for less money next season as well and could end up being a better bargain than Whitney.
Lee Stempniak: RW age 26, earned $3,500,000 last season, 28 goals, 20 assists, and 48 points in 80 games.
Stempniak will probably get a little more money than he earned last year and is certainly looking for a multi-year deal. He seems to be a player on the rise though as he scored the bulk of his goals, (14 goals in 18 games) after being traded to Phoenix. He did not score a goal in seven playoff games though.
Tomas Holmstrom: LW age 36, earned $2,250,000 last season, 25 goals, 20 assists, and 45 points in 68 games.
It's hard to believe that Holmstrom would play for anyone other than the Red Wings, but you never know. He certainly would not make the Hurricanes any younger, but his presence in front of the net could be just what the doctor ordered for the team's ailing powerplay, and his price might be reasonable.
Alex Tanguay: LW age 29, earned $2,500,000 last season, 10 goals, 27 assists, and 37 points in 80 games.
Tanguay's demise is a mystery as the one time highly heralded sniper fell off the map last season. But he would not be the first player who struggled in Tampa Bay only to make a resurgence in a more positive atmosphere. Plus, he could be signed on the cheap.
Alexander Frolov: LW age 26, earned $4,000,000 last season, 19 goals, 32 assists, and 51 points in 81 games.
Frolov fell out of favor in Los Angeles but could be a huge signing for some club. He won't come cheaply though and more than likely will be signed for more than the Canes want to spend.
Perhaps Whitney is the best option out of any of these players? Or maybe Carolina would be better off to leave this spot open for a rookie and stay completely out of the free agent market?
If you were Jim Rutherford, what would you do?
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Whitney v. Frolov
Whitney is truly awesome and will help the kids without any doubt; however, it really does make sense to sign a player like Frolov if the bottom line for Whitney is $3,000,000.00. Signing Frolov would give Staal an NHL experienced first line wing and would then give Jim Rutherford a good option of moving down to get one of the top three defensemen. I am as strong a Whitney supporter and fan as they come; but I am also a realist about the Hurricanes needs. A young wing with tremendous upside ability at a comparable price is the way to go if the prices are indeed comparable. If Whitney’s salary is less, such as $2,000,000.00 for example, he should be re-signed. At this stage of the Hurricanes franchise’s development, salary costs are a huge consideration.
Frolov plays on the 2nd line for LA. That might explain his low goals total. He has very little playoff experience, he’s 27 and has only played 6 playoff games. I like the fact that he’s younger than Whitney, but he seems like a very good 1st line player on a non-playoff team. He was good in the playoffs this year, it just seems when you need a big play or someone to lay it on the line you probably go with Whitney evertime. Also, I read a Cullen interview the other day and it looks like Ottawa really wants to re-sign him.
Walk points probably already established
JR’s said he wants Ray back and Ray says he wants to be back.
But, having said that…it means little.
I’m sure that JR already has a dollar figure in mind, along with the terms of the deal (1yr or 2yr?, NTC?) that he will accept with that dollar figure.
Ray has a similar salary number and terms in mind.
They’ll compare terms. My guess is that JR won’t blink, because he does have options.
We’ll soon see just what motivates Ray, because it’s going to take a “hometown discount” for him to stay here. I could easily see him moving onward (Pittsburgh?) for a last hurrah payday and/or 3-year contract.
I’m inclined to agree with Elsker. I think the middle isn’t gonna be found and Ray will move on.
BTW, this list of FA’s isn’t the whole list to be sure. Detroit is gonna cough up some players, not sure Homer will be one, though. There are going to be some sweet deals available and compromises will be made.
My hope is the supposed brain trust got a labotomy and can grasp reality this year.
One key is getting Staal some support by creating a first class first line. While I’d like a classic 4th line, too, we have to have the main scorer firing on all pistons and Eric just hasn’t had the consistnt top quality line he needs. I’m still not convinced he needs to be a center. He scores playing the wing and when a line is clicking they do what they do. I’d like to see a top notch 2 way center (Sutter?) play with Eric on the wing. A guy like Kesler or Booth would make for an interesting combo.
A kid like Kopitar would also be nice to throw in with Eric. Eric has to get back to over 80 points for all 80+ games. That should be a top priority and may require spending some nickels.
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
doesnt Frolov kinda have that “locker room cancer” tendancy? I like keeping Whitney if the moneys right, Frolov would be great if hes affordable. Stempniak is an intriguing idea though. If he can be had for a good price for a decent term he could blossom into a great player.
I guess my order would be
Frolov – if affordable and no locker room issues.
Stempniak – again, if affordable.
I’ll pass on Holmstrom, and Tanguay, and I really dont think Cullen fits this list b/c he’s a 2nd/3rd line center. Whitney is a 1st/2nd line wing, and Cullen doesnt replace Whitney.
Whitney – if affordable.
Frolov gives me the sense that he’s asking significantly more than LA is willing to offer, which is probably a reasonable offer based on their past. Why would he want to leave LA, they’ve got a great young team that’s heading in the right direction: money. If that’s the case then money’s more important than winning.
Ignoring the fact that Russia just eliminated Canada from the World Cup, I’ve watched Whitney in every WC game. He’s twice as old as most his teammates and he looked great! Making plays, scoring goals. At the beginning of today’s game he lead Canada in points and was #2 for all teams in the tournament. I think he still has plenty to offer.
If the Canes and Whitney can work out a deal – I’m all for it.
"The increase in pain is way beyond what you would expect a person to play with," said coach Paul Maurice. "Unfortunately it’s even beyond what Tim Gleason can play with, because he can play with just about anything."
I’m inclined to agree, but the wall is around 40 and Ray is up against it. Ray and his agent will want o pad their accounts as they head into retirement and will want a 2-3yr deal and I’m sure a NTC. While as a fan I’d pray JR has enough common sense to see how that worked out with the anchor formely know as Rod.
Ray’s a catch at a discount for 1 yr. with or without a NTC. Anything more than that and I say pass on him.
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
37 helpers was 3rd on the team, and 3rd in goals and 3rd in points. Ray’s shown at the Worlds that he still has it.
Sign him for 2 years $4million — $3 million in 10-11 and $1 mill in 11-12. No NTC, so at next year’s trade deadline the Canes can move him if necessary. Do you just give up on your 3rd best offensive player from last year? I can’t see how that would be a win.
38 years old. Total and absolute disappearance after the trade deadline. Those 58 points came with first line, first unit powerplay time for virtually the entire season and nothing resembling competent defensive play or physicality. Ray Whitney is a one-dimensional player whose one dimension has declined and is 38 years old. The safe bet would be that he continues declining. A two year deal is insane. Do we really learn nothing from the past?
Third in the team in scoring? That’s nice. Do you know who was just one place down at fourth in the team in scoring in the long distant season of 08-09…and was also 38 years old? Hint: he scored 18 points this year and half the fanbase wants him to retire.
No matter how terrible a team is, somebody has to lead it in scoring. Likewise, someone has to be third in scoring. To latch on to Ray Whitney’s 58 points is to to glorify mediocrity. “Oh, but he’s the best we have!” Yes, and that’s not very good, which is to be expected from a terrible team…so why don’t we save the millions of dollars and spend it towards someone who isn’t close to retirement? Or maybe on a defenseman to help out of the worst defensive teams in the league?
World Championships? Really? A short tournament after a month of rest with half the games against teams that would struggle to compete in the AHL is indicative that he still has “it”? He had 0 points against Russia, 0 points against Sweden and 1 point against the Czechs. Six of his eight points came against Italy, Latvia, and Norway with Canada scoring 23 goals in those three games.
The problem with anyone else on the list is they’ll demand as much if not more than Whitney (Frolov) and they’re going to demand 3-4 year contracts (maybe not Tanguay) which we shouldn’t be doing for anyone of those guys. If Mark Recchi proven anything during the playoffs it was probably don’t discount a guy too much because of his age. If he’s a complete bust then yes a 2 year deal is insane, but what in his past suggests that he’s going significantly decline, plus he’s an offensive winger so you can’t compare him Brindy, Whitney’s job in the defensive zone’s pretty simple compared to Brindy’s.
I don’t recommend signing anyone on that list. I recommend using the money that would be spent on Whitney towards signing/acquiring a Top 4 defenseman so that we can go into the season with more than two proven Top 4 D.
What in his past suggests he’s going to significantly decline? Dropping from 77 to 58 points over the past two seasons doesn’t qualify as a decline? Going from 23rd in the league in scoring to tied for 59th while the team actually improves its offense (going from 16th to 13th) isn’t significant? And what in every other now-retired or now-medicore older player’s past suggested that they were going to decline? Probably not much, but the fact that they were nearing 40 probably indicated that their best days may be behind them.
Mark Recchi is an exception, not the rule. 17 players aged 38 or older played in the NHL this season. Four of them hit the 40 point mark, one of which was Bill Guerin who got to ride shotgun with Crosby for the entire season. Zero of them hit 50 points. Mark Recchi himself even only scored 43 points, which isn fact a decline from the 65 he hit the season before. Mark Recchi didn’t prove anything except that Mark Recchi can still play hockey. Using his performance as an indication of a trend is ridiculous.
Brind’amour’s offense also declined greatly to go with his defense. But you’re right about it in one way as Whitney is so terrible defensively that it would be hard for him to get much worse.
If you’re using the decline logic then the only guys that should come back are Staal, Sutter, Jokinen, Gleason, and Pitkanen. I think his drop in pts. is probably more a function of playing on a lousy team than getting a year older. So if Recchi’s the exception then Lidstrom should retire too. I agree Guerin’s point totals are pretty bad. Whitney’s fine defensively it’s really a non-issue. I’m aware of his career +/- which is heavily squed (sp.) towards 2 years in CBJ, 1 year in FLA, and 1 year in SJ.
The team scored 226 goals this season compared to 236 the season prior. That is a decline of 4.2%.
Ray Whitney’s point totals over 82 games (he played 80) work out to 59. Going from 77 points to 59 is a decline of 23.4%.
If the decline was due to playing a lousy team, then why did Staal, Sutter, Jokinen, Gleason and Pitkanen not see this decline in offensive production? You can add Cullen, LaRose and Ruutu to the list of players who saw an increase in points-per-game. The answer is that the Hurricanes were not a lousy offensive team, but a terrible defensive one and that’s what hurt them the most.
This Hurricanes team scored 13 more goals than the 02-03 Blue Jackets did when Ray Whitney posted a then-career best 76 points. Why did playing on a lousy team not kill Ray Whitney’s point totals? Or what about when the 06-07 Hurricanes scored 50 fewer goals than the 05-06 team and saw a huge drop in the standings, yet Ray Whitney was able to increase his production?
I said that Mark Recchi “an exception”, not “the exception.” The point is that there are very, very few players in the league still producing at a high level and the chances of Ray Whitney not continuing his decline are low. A two-year deal for a 38-year old who is already showing signs of slowing down is a huge gamble.
You say that Guerin’s point totals are “pretty bad”, yet he was third-highest scoring player in the league who is Whitney’s age or older and only six points behind the leader (Lidstrom). There are barely any productive players Whitney’s age still playing and that is a simple fact.
Whitney is older and needs to go
Whitney is the face of this Franchise along side Staal in the Hurricanes Fan base and Community; however his age has to be a huge factor in giving him any type of extentsion. Plus you have to keep in mind that we signed alot of older type guys such as A. Ward, A. Alberts (not that he is that old, lol) etc… last offseason and got very little production to show for our money.
Look for the Hurricanes to build through the draft this offseason; fact remains that it is the only true way to build a franchise. You have to draft well and the Hurricanes need to draft better in round 3 and below.
Now with that said back to the job at hand; fact remains that Whitney had a ho-hum year w/ 21 goals but at some point the Wizard is going to run out of tricks in his hat and his best year are behind him I’m afarid. Brindy is in the same boat except his is at the bottom of the lake and he needs help to get off the bottom. Best opt. for Brindy is to take a coaching positon with the Canes and hang up the blades. Whitney sorry to say but I would have to pass.
Player signed:
In my opinon it comes down to either Tanguay or Frolov .
At this point I am leaning towards Tanguay b/c he is low risk high reward guy and we have had great luck w/ former Lighting players aka Jussi. However Frolov is a much better player with a way high upside as to Tanguay’s 3rd line winger status that he has turned himself into in the NHL. Frolov would cost way more than Tanguay but is stands to reason b/c he still in basically his top prime, peak NHL career.
Comes down to money I would prefer us to go after Frolov b/c he is still a legitimate first line winger and Tanguay is more of a 3rd line winger w/more mileage. All comes down to money and that is why I have picked Tanguay .
More than likely look for Tanguay if the Canes were going to sign a winger today to replace Whitney.
Go Canes.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on May 20, 2010 10:14 PM EDT reply actions
I wouldn’t touch Tanguay with a 10’ pole. He has some skill, but we don’t need another 3rd maybe 2nd line player. One of the four “almost prime time players” can easily fill that role.
I’m also not a big believer in late round picks. I know you can find a good player down there every once in a while, but it is somewhat rare. I would rather package the 5th, 6th, and 7th round pick for a 3rd. Or include those picks in with other players to sweeten any trades. I know I’m probably alone in this course of thinking, but 5th – 7th round picks are almost useless.
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by PackPride17 on May 20, 2010 11:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Unless an org’s minor team is running on fumes, I’m of the same opinion on the late-round picks.
Let others that need quantity have them. I’ll take quality over quantity.
I mean of our top 15 to 18 forwards and 6 or 7 defenseman; how many were drafted after the 4th round? LaRose, Rodney, and maybe TK?
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by PackPride17 on May 20, 2010 11:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Having the Depth to Pick Projects in Late Rounds
Detroit does great in later rounds because it has the depth in the system to pick some late blooming players who have high upside, but who will take some time to develop. Carolina now has that same amazing luxury; and it can now afford in the late rounds to take some gambles on players who could either go bust or who if they developed could become true stars.
Right on. Like I was talking about in a previous thread, your prospects will define your team if you do it right. Detroit has and I think we now have. What we have is speed and skill. So a bunch of gorillas on the boards we ain’t got. You have to use what you have, it’s alot cheaper than buying new pieces.
Ray may have some more hockey in the tank. I disagree that WC hockey is much of a test. The teams and lines are all new to eachother and therefore the play is diff. and not comparable to the NHL.
In my not even close to humble opinion any team signing any 38 yr old to any long term contract will suffer from the stupidity. Our team does not take a beating well and old guys are fragile. If Ray has to have more than 1 yr ,ask him why he didn’t go at the trade and then let him find it elsewhere.
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
Holmstrom
If he can be had for a cheap price on a short deal, we’d be fools not to bring him on board.
I think he’d be a great addition, but I agree short is key. I think Homer is looking for his last contract and will want a 3 yr at least. I think, even though I voted for Homer, that isn’t even remotly possible.
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
Re-Sign Ray!
For a veteran player, he still plays with the heart of a youthful player. But has that dedication and knowledge to help out the rookies. I say re-sign him to a 2 year deal and he retires in Carolina and eventually is worked into the fold of a coaching role. I honestly don’t see him breaking down as badly as Brind’Amour has or Aaron Ward did. Barring any injuries, I’d rather see us re-sign Ray than bring Anton “waste of time and just stands there doing nothing” Babchuk back. Dump him and his salary.
Thank you Jim Rutherford and Ray Whitney for working together for Ray to stay a Hurricane! :)
Ray stays
Frolov – too expensive Stempniak – probably too expensive Homer – will stay in Det. but would be too expensive (or too many years) Cullen – sign him up (but not as a replacement for Ray but in addition) Tanguay – Worth considering if the price was right!!
-to add Cullen or Tanguay (w/ Ray) would have to move Cole or Samsonov or ???
Cullen
I liked Cullen a great deal; but I doubt it will happen. I think that money if available would go for a younger player. I suspect the Hurricanes are seriously looking at moving Samsonov and Cole.
Now Samsonov – I would include our two 7th round picks to get rid of him. And all I would ask for in return is a couple of hockey sticks and future consideration.
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Samsonov has a history of having excellent years when his contract is expiring. Still, I think the issue with Samsonov is less his still set than the fact that the Hurricanes are building a team around hitting, hounding the puck, and attacking the net with a vengeance. Some other teams have a style and approach to the game in which pretty goals are sought more than ugly goals. Samsonov is a master at puck-handling; but he is not going to strike fear in the heart of Hurricanes’ opponents as he charges the net. He also is quick but not particularly fast; and the problem with mis-matching speed on a line is that the faster player often has to hold up and can’t hit wide open throttle.
I hope Samsonov can find a team that needs the impressive skills he has; but the direction the Hurricanes are going, he seems to be the odd man out, so to speak.
Samsonov at 2.8 could be a fit on the Pens. He’s not that expensive. If they let Poni walk they could afford to have Sergei on a one-year deal depending on how other things work out. I’m not sure what it would take to get Sergei out of here. I’d say a second should do it, but Pitt doesn’t have a second. What would anyone think about Sergei to Pitts for a third round pick?
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Samsonov has plenty of skill; but realistically, anything the Hurricanes could get in trade for him prior to the season would be helpful. He could well score 20 goals for a team that had superb talent and didn’t need to rely on him for any type of physical game. He’s a great teammate and is a true professional. A team like Philadelphia that runs and guns might also be able to use his skills; but they seem pretty loaded with talent to me.
He needs a place where he can play on the 2nd line. He has some skill, but the question is; is it enough to play top 6 minutes? I know I’m beating a dead horse, but I think that Nashville would be a good spot for him. He could rotate between 2nd and 3rd line LW and play on their PP unit.
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Samsonov produced very well with Joe Thornton early in his career, and he’s been productive at times here. The reason I think Pitt works well is that even on the second line Samsonov would be playing with Malkin. He’d be an upgrade over just about any of the wingers Pittsburgh has right now not named Kunitz.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Samsonov and Nashville
Nashville has a player, Zach Budish, that would be fantastic for the Hurricanes. He was a second round pick rather than a first round pick due to a knee injury he sustained. It would be great if the Hurricanes could figure out a way to bundle Samsonov and a draft pick and get Budish.
Keep dreaming AD! If someone does take Sammy, we are not going to get anything in return (even if we add a draft pick). My hope is that we could trade Sammy for the rights to Hamhuis, so we can maybe negotiate with him before free agency. If he doesn’t sign, what would we lose? We would open up $2.8M to spend on another area.
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I’ve been following Zach Budish for a couple of years now. He is 6’3" 235 lbs; and is fast. He has a mean streak and played quarterback and linebacker in high school. He is a talented athlete who loves to hit. David Backes comes to mind for me. He is just what the doctor ordered for the Hurricanes.
I know you have but Ellis is the better player who has more upside and if you going to go after one of their prospects Ellis is the guy. However, the proposed deal was Samsonov which would get us neither.
Ryan Ellis
If it were me, I wouldn’t have any desire to work a trade for Ellis. The Hurricanes have a plethora of players 5’10" and less who are agile, fast, quick, and skilled. Stacking up players with similar skill sets seems redundant at best. I am much more interested in having some players like Budish, Osala, Jared Staal, and Johansen/Connolly/Niederreiter so the Hurricanes can physically match up well with any team.
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