Two Week Buyout Window Opens Today
by Bob Wage on Jun 15, 2010 1:45 PM EDT
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Starting today, NHL teams have two weeks to buyout the contracts of players who might be considered untradable or quite simply, are not producing up to the expectations of their contract. These abrupt contract terminations are usually last ditch efforts by management to try to move a player, or cut some costs.
The savings are not huge though because if a player is bought out and they are 26 years old or older, they would still get two thirds of the value of their contract, which is paid out over a two year period. (Players who are 25 years old and younger get one third).
Two years ago, the Carolina Hurricanes bought out the contract of defenseman Frantisek Kaberle. (They are paying him the final year of that deal this season.) They did not buy out anyone last year, but the Canes might have a couple of candidates for consideration this time around. (Correction, Kaberle was bought out in the summer of 2009. There is still one year remaining on his buyout.)
There has been some talk that Sergei Samsonov is on the list as well as Rod Brind`Amour.
Samsonov was acquired by the Canes off the waiver wire during the 2007-08 season. After scoring zero goals and four assists for the Chicago Blackhawks in the first 23 games of that season, he looked like he found a home in Carolina as he scored 14 goals and notched 18 assists for a total of 32 points in 38 games for the Canes.
In that offseason, GM Jim Rutherford then signed the winger to a three year deal which had a cap hit of $2.533 million, but he is due to earn $2.8 million this season which is the last of his contract.
After a disappointing season last year where he scored 14 goals and had 15 assists in 72 games, people around the league are expecting him to be bought out. Of course knowing this, it makes him extremely difficult to trade, if not impossible.
If another team was interested in Samsonov, why give up an asset for him? Simply wait until he his bought out and sign him at a much cheaper price, without giving up anything in return.
Another buyout possibility is Rod Brind`Amour. The former captain had an even worse year than Samsonov, (9G 10A in 80 games), but also has one year remaining on his deal which will pay him $3 million. He has indicated that he wants to return one more year to finish out his contract, but it seems that management would prefer that he retire and move up to the front office.
Who will win this battle of wills?
While a buyout for this player is possible, it's not as likely to happen as with Samsonov. Either way, don't look for the Canes to make a decision until the last minute on these issues. They have until June 30 to make their move.
There are several other players around the league in a similar predicament. Spector gives out a list of probables on Fox Sports Net. Here is his listing of possibilities, (I'm adding in the salary balance of each contract):
- Ales Kotalik ($3 million each year for two years)
- Sergei Samsonov ($2.8 million for one year)
- Cristobal Huet ($5.625 million each year for two years)
- Brent Sopel ($2 million for one year)
- Ethan Moreau ($1.75 million for one year)
- Robert Nilsson ($2.5 million for one year)
- Patrick O`Sullivan ($2.388 million for one year)
- Sheldon Souray ($4.5 million each year for two years)
- Roman Hamrlik ($5.5 million for one year)
- Andrei Kostitsyn ($3.25 million for one year)
- Georges Laraque ($1.5 million for one year)
- Wade Redden (total of $23 million over next four years)
- Michal Rozsival (total of $7 million over next two years)
- Jonathan Cheechoo ($3.5 million for one year)
- Jeff Finger ($3.5 million each year for two years)
In looking over the list, it's a bit strange that Edmonton would give up already on Patrick O'Sullivan and Robert Nilsson, considering they are both still a bit young. But for some of those, you could see an impending buyout coming as soon as the signing of the contract was announced.
Did Spector leave anyone off the list that should be there?
It will be a busy time in the NHL for the next two weeks, leading right up until free agent signing day of July 1. We will be watching.
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Yes Bob
it will be "definatley and interesting next 2 weeks for sure as well as the draft it’s self…as from what no one has heard as of yet if JR is willing to want to move up …persoanlly he sits in the cat bird seat @ #7…but we all shall see what we shall see huh ??
Thanks for the efforts..between you three here at Ad…no one should ever say a caniac can’t find or have any information…hehehe…stay kool..
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
Nino is The One !
To distinguish:
Falls From Grace:
Samsonov
Huet
O’Sullivan
Kostitsyn
Rozsival
Cheechoo
Bad Contracts From the Start:
Kotalik
Hamrlik
Redden
Finger
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 1:56 PM EDT reply actions
Wait, Huet qualifies for both.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
From Chip’s Canes Now morning article http://bit.ly/cjgykx
JR:
some significant personnel moves need to be made before July 1
So who else you think is going to be moved in addition to Sami?
"The increase in pain is way beyond what you would expect a person to play with," said coach Paul Maurice. "Unfortunately it’s even beyond what Tim Gleason can play with, because he can play with just about anything."
From the lips of C-Leaguer to the ears of God, please let it be so…
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
I’d still prefer he retires. Buyouts are like arbitration, no one really wins.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
by C-Leaguer on Jun 16, 2010 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
RFA's need to be signed
He might not be referring to trades or buyouts. There are several RFA’s that need to be signed by July 1, otherwise they are open to offer sheets from around the league. According to my notes, Jerome Samson, Justin Peters, Brett Carson, Alexandre Picard, and Casey Borer still need contracts. None of them are particularly considered to be in “elite status” so it’s surprising that they have not been signed yet. But they could be holding out for one-way deals and management might be hesitant to do so.
This is a viable topic for another article in a couple of days.
Editing Manager of CanesCountry.com
Amen Bob...Amen
steve slaps hisself in the forehead as he knew all of the too…see situation “normal”
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
Nino is The One !
Cole.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s gonna be on 99.9 soon, speaking of which.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Now – discussing NBA and World Cup. Stream here:
http://den-a.plr.liquidcompass.net/player/flash/audio_player.php?id=WCMCFM&uid=24
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey HM2
what time ?? as it’s 4:04 and all jaws is doing is talking NBC still or is it on or was it on the Buzz
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
Nino is The One !
It was on when I posted. around 3:30 to 3:40. Nothing to thrilling. You should follow me on twitter if you need mor timely reminders. @HMof2.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
spelling goofs fixed
nothing too thrilling…..more timely reminders
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok
as the only thing i do is tweet hehehe thanks
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
Nino is The One !
The ’Canes blogger over at my site thinks the team could go after Marleau with the buyout of Sergei and the (potential) retirement of Rod. I posted a link in the Fanshots section. Is that crazy?
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 3:55 PM EDT reply actions
Thanks for the confirmation. I mean I know I went to an art school, but I didn’t think my math was that bad.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not that they can’t. They will have the cap space. It’s that the Canes won’t. If they want the payroll around $44 million then they can’t afford to bring in Marleau. FWIW, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him stay in San Jose.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
I think he will stay in San Jose, especially since he just bought a house in the area. Obviously that doesn’t mean he is for sure, as I’m sure it’s like A. Ward where he loves the area from being there so long.
That said, I totally agree. ‘Canes won’t do it. It would probably set back development of our younger, deserving players as well. Maybe I’m too much of a realist (or pessimist) but I feel like this team is a year away from the playoffs again, and it’s not such a bad thing. The team needed to fail like they did in order to step back, reassess, and move forward with a younger, rebuilt roster. I’d rather have the team gulp rebuild and succeed for a long stretch, rather than go for UFAs and only win for spurts.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
JR’s already said they won’t be in the fray right on July 1. If Marleau makes it to July 1, he’ll be hotly pursued by several teams. Plus, he’s really a center. Not exactly a need here.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 15, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I didn’t think for a second the ’Canes would sign anyone of significance from the free-agent market.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Who do you see as out 3rd and 4th line centers next year, Cory?
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they might go out to get a No. 3 guy later in free agency unless they really think Dalpe is up for the job. Fourth will probably be Rod or someone on the fringe. I’m hoping Dodge gets a chance (if he’s up for the challenge already) and that Dwyer isn’t put at center where he’s out of position.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 15, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I too would like to see another fourth line center other than Dwyer, but in my own mind, I am convinced that is where they will play Dwyer most of the year. I also can’t see them sitting players like Bowman, Dalpe, or Osala to play Dodge even though Dodge is extremely solid in all aspects of the game.
In my mind,, you’d rather have Dodge playing fourth line minutes in the NHL than any of the aforementioned guys b/c they all have a higher ceiling than Dodge that could be realized if they’re given proper time to develop (ie. more minutes and opportunities in the AHL)
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 18, 2010 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dodge and the Fourth Line
Dodge seems to me to be a player who could well surprise as a fourth line center. As for me, I think the Hurricanes tend to put players on the fourth line and then give them a chance to accommodate themselves to the NHL grind. It is how they handled Sutter, for example. It’s a hard choice to figure out whether to give players AHL time to develop or whether to see how they perform in the NHL. Equally valid arguments exist; so it seems to be coaching preference.
I would like to see the Hurricanes utilize the fourth line more than for token minutes, unless Samsonov and Brindy are still on the team in which case an almost invisible fourth line is just fine with me.
I was working some math earlier in the Caniac twitterverse, and wanted to run this by you guys:
If Brind’Amour, Samsonov and Whitney all are gone. (See LeBrun’s piece on Whitney today - apparently having spoken to Ray today, suggest Whitney is gone – no posturing), this leaves Erik Cole as senior man on the roster at age 31. Then TKO and at #3, Chad LaRose.
Then there are the 5 born in 1983.
Given the team’s avg age last October was about 31, it seems like that is an incredibly fast transition.
I realize Brind`Amour is not gone yet, but with the winds blowing this strong to coax him out the door, it’s hard to believe he’d want to hang around with kids 15 years younger than he is.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 4:16 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed … give JR credit: he knew he’d be old last season, but thought his team could rekindle the 2009 playoff magic. He didn’t mortgage the future of the franchise in doing so.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 15, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
they’d be old last season … not he’d be old. lol
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 15, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Lebrun has Whitney possibly going to the Kings. What a slap in the face that would be.
Editing Manager of CanesCountry.com
As a fan of both teams, I can honestly say I hope that doesn’t happen.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Bob, are you posting this just to get me to post long and hateful diatribes? ;-)
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
I lost faith in ESPN long ago...
As far as hockey news goes, I don’t really trust ESPN much anymore. :(
Hopefully the 'Canes re-sign Ray Whitney to a nice 2 year deal and he retires comfortably at age 40. Maybe even 1 more Stanley Cup? :)
by thebl4ckd0g on Jun 15, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And then there’s the money. I went to CapGeek.com. I assumed the Canes move to buyout Samsonov and Brind`Amour. Combined they’re $5.8 million. Disregarding the cap, and focusing on the cash outlay, that’s 1/3 of $5.8Mil/year or $1.933Mil.
I then went with minimum RFA contracts to (that’s according to capgeek – I’m guessing it’s last year’s salary they’ve used – need to add something like 10% I thought?):
Dcorps:
Babchuk: $1.1mil (not sure where he is based on his 08-09 pay)
Carson: $522k
Picard: $800k
That’s 7 D with these 4 assumed: Gleason, Pitkanen, McBain and Harrison
For the Forwards,
I started with these 8: Staal, Ruutu, Cole, LaRose, Jokinen, Sutter, Kostopoulos, Tlusty.
I added 5 more: Boychuk, Dalpe, Bowman, Dwyer, and Samson. Samson is the only RFA with an unknown salary and I put him at $500k. You could also have Osala, but he’s to be paid more than Samson, closer to $900k with bonuses.
I’ll let ADog spin the lines for us.
2 Goalies are Ward and Peters.
The cash for those 20 skaters, 2 goalies and buyouts of Kaberle, Sammi and Brindy come to $44.9 Mil.
And the target is $44.0 Mil, so if they’re counting buyouts, that about million on the wrong side of the budget.
That’s it, kids. That is your 10-11 roster, unless the 7th overall pick comes in at age 18 and boots off one of the Checkers. And then aren’t there signing bonuses? I guess that’s a good problem to have, just not sure how flexible the self-imposed cap is.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 5:17 PM EDT reply actions
They would be right at it if Brindy retires, right?
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Good question: that $44.9mil was including 1/3 of Brind`Amour’s $3mil = $1million. So yes.
I don’t see him retiring in the next 2 weeks, and as I understand it they need to do a buy-out by June 30, or they’re on the hook for the whole $3mil unless he retires on his own. Not an easy call.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
With this set of assumptions, we’re losing both the Alternate captains. That would put the A on Gleason and ….Sutter? Ruutu?
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
They may just give the “A” to Ruutu…or maybe Pitkanen.
by DesertCaniac on Jun 15, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I was focusing on who wore it when Whitney or Brind`Amour were out of the line up. Samsonov had it once. Gleason maybe a couple times, and Sutter for the last game. I think JR was pretty clear in Feb that Gleason was a favorite of his.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the alternates would be, in priority order, 1) Timmy, 2) Tuomo, 3) Brandon. Not sure if that’s an educated guess on my part or a desire.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jun 15, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like both. Timmy should get an “A”.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Brandon wore the A last year for a game or two. I’d put him ahead of Ruutu.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 15, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t be surprised if one of those current roster players (e.g.: LaRose) is on the move via a trade at the draft.
by DesertCaniac on Jun 15, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s probably the only one – or TommyK, I suppose. But there has been so much recent marketing built around LaRose lately, maybe the left hand (PR) doesn’t know what the right hand (GM) is up to?
And maybe they find a taker for Samsonov by trade rather than buy-out, but that does not seem likely.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Kostopoulos, Cole, LaRose
I agree and think all signs tend to point to Kostopoulos – even though Kostopoulos has a very affordable contract and is a team guy through and through. I would have thought LaRose was going to be traded based solely of the economics and the wealth of other players, but given the fact the Hurricanes are marketing LaRose as one of the faces of the Franchise, a trade seems much less likely – unless as HMof2 says, there is a disconnect between marketing and the front office. Cole’s salary makes him a potential piece in a trade; but my hunch is that the Hurricanes organization believes if Cole can stay healthy, he adds speed, size, and physicality.
Lines, Self-Imposed Salary Cap, and Youth Will Be Served
HMof2, I think the salary budget will wind up somewhere around $45 million to $46 million. I happen to like Picard, but I don’t get the sense the Hurricanes are totally committed to re-signed Picard. He didn’t play that many games, but he is another one of the players who seemed very solid when watching him on the game videos.
The Hurricanes, I think, may make some room for Osala by trading TK. I also agree with the eight veteran forwards you listed. I hadn’t realized Barry was Whitney’s agent, which was my oversight. If I had factored in Barry, I would not have predicted Whitney to stick with the team. I think Barry tends to be somewhat short-sighted with his clients. Whitney will get a good contract, but if he leaves the Canes for bigger money, I don’t see him returning to coach or to become part of the front office.
Decisions that seem brilliant at 38 can seem extremely myopic at 50.
Now before going to the lines, I seem to recall being told that I had become delusional when I posted some comments about the Hurricanes totally revamping their team with younger players. Obviously, it is possible that the Hurricanes won’t buy out Brind’Amour or buy out or trade Samsonov; but it seems inevitable that those moves will happen. LaRose seems to have been added to the “untouchables” list which makes sense if Whitney is not going to be in the locker room. LaRose has a huge personality and keeps things relaxed. Cole, to, seems to have gotten the message.
Caveat to Lines:
As many line combinations as I draft, M/F/R/B will find an infinite number of variations. Then the inevitable injuries will come into play as well.
Here are some combinations that I think we will see in the pre-season and at Helsinki
Jokinen/Staal/Ruutu
LaRose/Sutter/Tlusty
Boychuk/Dwyer/Cole
Samson/Dalpe/Kostopoulos
This set of lines has Bowman as the odd man out. It also has Cole as the third line wing; and I wonder if having a $2.9 million player on the third line fits with the Hurricanes self-imposed salary cap. Bowman is too good not to play quite a number of games for the Hurricanes. It is for that reason that I believe Jim Rutherford is going to consider trading Kostopoulos. Following the approach taken by HMof2, I did not include Osala; and I think Osala is going to start the season at Carolina, due to the need to have some big-bodies creating havoc around the net. I also think Dalpe may well start the season on the third line. Therefore, I also think the Hurricanes will have some games where the lines are:
LaRose/Staal/Cole
Jokinen/Sutter/Ruutu
Boychuk/Dalpe/Tlusty
Samson/Dwyer/Osala
and
LaRose/Staal/Jokinen
Tlusty/Sutter/Ruutu
Boychuk/Dalpe/Cole
Bowman/Dwyer/Osala
and
Ruutu/Staal/Cole
Boychuk/Sutter/Jokinen
Tlusty/Dalpe/LaRose
Bowman/Dwyer/Samson
and
Ruutu/Staal/Cole
Boychuk/Sutter/Jokinen
Tlusty/Dalpe/LaRose
Samson/Dwyer/Kostopoulos
No matter how I slice and dice the lines, I think by 2011-2012, at least Kostopoulos will be traded. If Cole find the motivation to play consistently and if he can stay healthy, he could avoid being traded. It all depends on the kind of year Cole has. I think the Hurricanes organization sees LaRose as a very helpful player to keep because he can kill penalties and he can play on all four lines; and he is also a source of levity and motivation for the younger players.
I haven’t added the #7 pick into the mix. It is going to be an extremely exciting training camp because other than Staal, Sutter, Jokinen, and Ruutu, the other forwards will have to earn their roster spot and their ice time. The team will miss Whitney, but it will open up some leadership roles for LaRose and Sutter.
Defensively, I think HMof2 is right on target. Gleason, Pitkanen, McBain, Carson, Harrison, and Babchuk are the six. I can’t tell if the Hurricanes plan to sign Picard or not. I am guessing they will but it may well be a two way contract. Borer still has a way to go to get back from two very serious injuries.
One thing I meant to mention earlier but this reminds me … I wouldn’t mind seeing Tuomo given a shot to move back to center on the third line. He could still play wing on the PP and get worthy minutes.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 15, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Tuomo on the Third Line as Center
I think using Tuomo as the third line is somewhat unlikely; but I tend to think the Hurricanes will have some of the most varied lines we’ve ever seen. As such, there could be times where Tuomo is centering a line that has Cole and Tlusty at wings. I personally would like to see what happens with a Dalpe/Ruutu/Osala line for some shifts.
We missing Cullen yet?
Yet Cole is still here. and Rod and Sami…
I hope JR holds true to his word and makes some serious roster changes.
I wonder what Redden will go for if bought out. Also wonder if there isn’t something in the mix in the front office about the goalie spot. If Cam goes down, Peters can’t carry the team. While Legacy maybe could of for a spell. I’m still not sure the goalie scenario is played out. Our last back up just got a tee time after playing for the Cup. If Cam has a bad back, this team is in dire straights. They got squat in reserve and apparently only Huet is out there.
Here’s hoping Cam comes back healthy and in top form!
If Rod gets bought out, beers are on me for anybody that wants to come to Virginia.
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
Third Line Center
I can’t envision the Hurricanes signing a veteran third line center unless the front office and the coaches are fairly well convinced that Dalpe, Dwyer, Ruutu, and Jokinen can’t play enough solid minutes at third line center in the infinite variations of lines that will be the Hurricanes trademark for 2010-2011.
The 40 or so game Cole played this year was the best stretch of games he has had in years with respect to playing each shift and being situationally aware. He didn’t make his stereotypical move after he returned and did a much, much better job of using all the ice with lateral moves. In the end, however, the test will be whether Cole can avoid major injuries this season.
Dalpe is the real deal and I would be very surprised if he doesn’t start the season as the third line center. He has all the skill in the world and is incredibly poised.
I’m excited to see what Dalpe can do.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 15, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He paid his own way to come to prospects camp last July, IIRC (round 2 – he and Mike Murphy).
I will be interested in seeing him with the AHL/NHL regulars in Sept to see how he skates, handles the puck, and I think really, how carries himself.
I would assume he’ll be at Traverse City. Man! – we need to get that on video feed.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Dalpe
When you watch Dalpe play, you’ll think you are watching how McBain would play if he were a center. Dalpe is extremely poised and self-confident without being a diva.
Ditto, Dwyer, not so much.
Though Sutter is the guy I have my on. I have been watching him since he arrived. All the people that said “Oh he needs to season in the AHL” make me laugh. Yea, the kid will get face off practice and tipes from Yelle and Rod in the AHL
There have been so many mistakes and misconceptions about the Canes ove rthe past year it’s amzing the team still exists, albeit for sale.
I’m JR get’s a bur under the saddle and plays it like he has a business to run and not some sewing circle like he has been doing.
That coach of his has tried every line combo that doesn’t involve Ward playing forward except one. Sutter at center, Staal at wing and I’d like a hard hitter like Ruutu on the other wing. We don’t have a nuclear super star. We got a point meister in Staal. The guy can score from anywhere, put him in goalie pads and I bet he still scores more than Rod. The true secret weapon is Sutter. As hockey smarts go and understanding the game I would rank Sutter in the top 10 in the entire NHL. There were several times I watched him between the circles look over both shoulders and see one or more of ourt idiots out of position and he’d fall back. Skinny ass little Sutter knew better than any vet and was aware of the whole ice and he became the first man back. Staal doesn’t have that in his tool bag, very few players do. So while every team in the league knows if you shut down Staal you have a good chance of beating the teamm why not put our resident genius on that line and throw in a hitter? God knows Mo has tried every other line. I swear I think that’s an evil line like a Crosby/Malkin or Datsyuk/Zetterberg. That ofcourse even further depletes our center spot, but I think we need to make a buy at forward anyway, so why not a big ass mean centerman?
Next, I love all the enthusiasm everyone has for the kids now. If they were vetted correctly last year and real tryouts held, we would of avoided alot. One stand out is Carson, I can’t say enough about other than you didn’t hear a whole lot about him. You hear about a D guy when he blows it or scores. Carson is another gold nugget.
Dalpe, Boychuck and maybe Dodge may break out into stars. Tlusty, Samson and Dwyer could be very servicable journeymen.
I will kick the dead horse once again.
AX Rod, Sami and Cole. Sign player of Staals level or better that will hit. Pay extra super secret attention to the goalie position and hold a true camp, tryouts and prelims. It’s almost impossible to do worse than last year.
Not too sorry about the manifesto, but we are alomost in the same spot as last year at this time.
Wallin my butt, Sutter is the secret weapon.
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
Power Play with the Kids
As I recall in the 8 to 5 win over Tampa Bay, M/F/R/B had some power plays with Boychuk/Sutter/Bowman and they all met at the goalie. It was really beautiful, hard-nosed hockey. Sutter was indeed often the guy who realized he needed to cover for another Hurricanes player and got himself into passing lanes to stop a rush. I also think he will fill out physically over the next couple of years.
I’m praying for the fill out and little of the uncles mean streak.
Can you imagine him at at 215 or so and pissed off??
Man o man..
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
P.S.
“Boychuck/Sutter/Bowman”
How cool is that just seeing that in type? Kane and Toews, Stamkos and Kopitar all started rough, but the tough and talented got going. I think we got some young grit and talent and it’s about time to start inflicting it upon the enemy.
Gonna be a few crazy weeks coming up, hope JR does better than last year, though it would be hard not even in a coma.
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
Comment of the day. Oh yeah!
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Johansen
Paladin6, if the Hurricanes draft Johansen, you might well see some shifts over the next year or two in which you see a Ruutu/Sutter/Staal line. Dalpe may well fit into a second line center (again it could be a year or two years), and then Johansen could play center on the third line. Crazier things have happened.
Amen. My question is why haven’t they tried it? They tried way more crazy lines last year. Stacking a line with talent, smarts and heart isn’t a new idea.
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'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
Wow – I hadn’t scrolled down yet and thought this most have been posted by ADoug :) Good job Paladin… paragraphs and everything.
"The increase in pain is way beyond what you would expect a person to play with," said coach Paul Maurice. "Unfortunately it’s even beyond what Tim Gleason can play with, because he can play with just about anything."
“paragraphs and everything”
PPppppffffffftttt.
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'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
poke poke
"The increase in pain is way beyond what you would expect a person to play with," said coach Paul Maurice. "Unfortunately it’s even beyond what Tim Gleason can play with, because he can play with just about anything."
I MISS CULLY WULLY!!
"The increase in pain is way beyond what you would expect a person to play with," said coach Paul Maurice. "Unfortunately it’s even beyond what Tim Gleason can play with, because he can play with just about anything."
While I am biased. I like the guy alot. He sure did address alot of issues. He ain’t 1st line talent, but sometimes he is and he can step in to change lines up. He’s a great guy and team mate. Usually good in the FO circle. I understand why he was traded and really can’t dispute it, but man what he brung to the table….
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'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
I miss Cullen too. He was a good guy all around for effort and achievements. I wish him well.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Hurricanes.com mentioned precisely that in an article a week back or so. I could see Dalpe and Ruutu on the third line, potentially splitting the center duties.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
I don’’t disagree, at this point, that management has no plans to sign a veteran 3rd line center. I do disagree with the decision, and think this will prove to be a huge mistake.
IMO, there are signals coming from the front office that they will invest some money in a stay-at-home, top-4 D man. But that seems to be the only money that they will spend in the UFA market this year. I think that will portend them either moving Picard or not signing Babchuk.
And for those who believe putting 8-9 first and second year players in your lineup is a formula for success, how many here thought that Tanebe was the be-all, end-all? Potential is just that. Inevitably some players don’t live up to it. Among the group of Boychuk, Tlusti, Samson, Dalpe, Oscala and Bowman, I guarantee there will be posters on this board — in eight months — talking about what a disappointment two of them are. I can’t predict which two. But history don’t lie, it just repeats itself.
Boychuk, Tlusty, Samson, Dalpe, Osala, and Bowman
With respect to Boychuk, Tlusty, Samson, Dalpe, Osala, and Bowman, I would happily have them on the Hurricanes long-term. Unless their NHL careers are shortened by injury, they will be good players for the Hurricanes. The problem is going to be finding roster spots for them.
My own prediction is that those six players will be full-time Hurricanes by 2011 – some in 2010-2011 and some in 2011-2012. Of that group, Osala is one who may take until 2011-2012 for the Hurricanes to find a full-time roster spot. If the first round draft choice is a forward, the Hurricanes are going to need to make some roster space among the veteran forwards and there are only three veteran forwards who seem to me to be players the Hurricanes might trade: Kostopoulos, Cole, and reluctantly LaRose (only if the other players beat him out beyond any degree of question).
Jared Staal forgotten so quickly… ? ;)
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Jared Staal shouldn’t even be mentioned with the likes of Boychuk, Tlusty, Dalpe, Bowman, Osala, or even Samson. Staal would have re-entered this Draft had we not traded for him and been a 4th-5th Round pick for a reason, he simply isn’t that good. I think he will need 2-3 years with the Checkers before (if ever) we see his name in the NHL.
Jared Staal
My guess is that by 2012, Jared Staal is going to be a very good player for the Hurricanes. It’s a guess based on having followed him since his draft year. Jared Staal has a long way to go; and the roster spots are filling up rapidly. Ultimately, Jared Staal may have to beat out Tlusty, Osala, Samson, or Bowman for a roster spot. Jared Staal will have his hands full to accomplish that task. Boychuk and Dalpe, I think, will be fixtures for the Hurricanes. Bowman also may be a fixture player as well. I just saw JussiJuice’s comments and agree that Jared Staal is probably at least two years away from the NHL.
hey, I hope you’re right regarding all those guys. But basing a team’s immediate future on several guys who have proven nothing at the NHL-level is pretty risky.
My observations are different from yours. Of the prospects, Carson has proven what he can do, McBain showed even in his brief time that he should be a stud and Samson showed some traits that, IMO, will be very valuable. (Played like a man in the corners.) Outside of that, you got a bunch of young guys who look young and, only if they improve, will they be anything other than very run-of-the-mill players next year. Obviously, some will improve, at some point. But others will struggle, just like many first-year players struggle.
I don’t agree with your conclusion that
bq. Outside of that, you got a bunch of young guys who look young and, only if they improve, will they be anything other than very run-of-the-mill players next year.
I liked how Tlusty, Boychuk, Bowman, and Samson played for the Hurricanes and liked their play in the AHL. I wonder if you have games in mind where you can point to some flaws that you noticed in their play? Osala played extremely well for the Rats.
To conclude these young players are run of the mill NHLers seems to me to be at odds with their performances thus far when one accounts for the fact that they played limited minutes for the Hurricanes. If one goes to the won-loss record for the Canes when they played, the Hurricanes won more games with them than without them. The young players also accounted for many fewer bone-headed plays than did their veteran counterparts.
First off, I didn’t say they were run-of-the-mill players. I said that, without improvement, they would likely perform like run-of-the mill players next year.
Why do I conclude that? Because — on a bottom-line assessment — that’s how they performed this past year. Boychuk had 9 points in 31 games, 1 point in his final 5 games. Bowman had points in one of his nine games. Oscala, no points in three games. Tlusty, 1 goal and 6 points in 20 games.
Now, again, I recognize that there is more to the game than scoring, and I recognize that several of these players do show great potential. But outside of potential, that is run-of-the-mill performance. It might be good for guys in their first games. It’s not good for NHL veterans who play every night and are relied on every night.
by scoop10 on Jun 17, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bob – I’m pretty sure Kaberle’s buyout was last year (June 09) – so the upcoming year is the 2nd of the 2 year hit. Picky old mom strikes again.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 5:30 PM EDT reply actions
We bought out Kaberle late last summer, July 28th to be exact. We were only afforded that luxury because of Tuomo’s arbitration case which was resolved on 7/23 and opened up the buyout window.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jun 15, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That makes sense – I was thinking it was a later in the summer as was confused by the deadline this year. Thanks.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks…the mind is a terrible thing at times. With one year left on the payout, it makes sense that it was last summer.
Editing Manager of CanesCountry.com
Goes to show you how long this past season was, and these playoffs too, with no home team to follow. Seems like 2 years since we were in the playoffs.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly...
I’d love to see buyout of cole and brind’amour – anything that would give them a better chance at keeping Ray Whitney on the team. I still feel the ‘Canes need at least one reliable veteran presence on the team. To me, Ray is that guy. I don’t care what all these articles are predicting. He might be testing the free agency market, but you know what, Ray might come back and say you know what? I want to retire a Hurricane. Give me a cut in pay, b/c I love area, I love my fans, and I love this team.
But…if Rutherford wants to continue living with his head up his butt, it won’t happen.
Sadly the downward spiral I see this team taking in the next several years is really said. The combination of JR’s poor decisions and Paul Maurice’s crap coaching… :(
Hopefully the 'Canes re-sign Ray Whitney to a nice 2 year deal and he retires comfortably at age 40. Maybe even 1 more Stanley Cup? :)
I really wanted to argue with that post. I really, REALLY did. I guess I can only say I don’t think Ray has any chance of staying without crawling naked through piss soaked broken glass. That and unless JR loses his few remaining braincells and trades away the kids, this team can’t help but improve. So in general I agree.
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
I agree that we should have a strong veteran (beyond Cole). Whitney would be my #1 choice by a far bit. Wait and see time, I guess.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 15, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah...
I mean I guess I’m a bit of a bad example, b/c Ray is my favorite NHL player of all time. I’ve followed him off and on ever since he was on the Sharks. He’s a great guy and a great player. One of the most underrated forwards in the NHL, and honestly I think he is worth pursuing over Brind’Amour, Cole or Samsonov. Or even Babchuck.
But if he doesn’t get resigned, he doesn’t get resigned. Guess I’ll have a new 2nd team to follow if he signs elsewhere. :(
Hopefully the 'Canes re-sign Ray Whitney to a nice 2 year deal and he retires comfortably at age 40. Maybe even 1 more Stanley Cup? :)
by thebl4ckd0g on Jun 15, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m still not convinced he won’t re-sign here.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
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by Jamie Kellner on Jun 15, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You think the $44mil Karmanos stated was off by that much? I just don’t see it. Whitney will earn more than the Canes are willing to spend, there’s too much demand for his skills with teams that are going for all the marbles. We are not. And this posturing has gotten too extreme to be anything but egos covering their decisions by implying they’re just being practical.
I hope you’re right, but this time I don’t think the office is committed to a big run. They took that gamble last year and it didn’t pay off.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, first of all I need to go back and re-read the article or re-listen to the audio where JR said that $44m was his official working player budget for next year. Not that I have any doubt he’ll work with in a lower salary range next year, but I want to understand and remember what was really actually said. If anyone has that link handy I’d love it.
I’ve said this before. I just don’t get the histrionics over the relationship between JR and Ray. I think folks are reading way too much into the comments that have come out in the media and projecting feelings that may not be there. I don’t see it. You obviously feel differently, that’s fine and are entitled to that opinion, but I don’t believe it. I see the situation between JR and Ray as just business as usual. JR isn’t stupid and neither is Ray. I don’t think anyone has pulled anything over on the other or has done anything that the other needs to save face about.
Ray Whitney can very likely get more in the open market than we can offer him here. That much is close to statement of fact. If he can get a sweet deal with another team for his terms, good for him and I won’t begrudge him a bit nor will I think he betrayed my franchise either now or back in March. Neither, do I think, will Jim Rutherford.
Now if he decides to take a hometown discount and stay here for a little while longer, well then good for him and good for us because I do think very much that he’s an asset to our organization on and off the ice.
The worse case scenario out of all this would be for us to overpay for him to stay here (either dollars or term) which I do think is very unlikely given an obvious budget year for the organization.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
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by Jamie Kellner on Jun 16, 2010 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I found that last couple of quotes in the LeBrun article sounded pretty credible. They both like each other and respect each other. There’s no anger, just Whitney is no longer a good fit for the direction the Hurricanes are going from here. It may be greed and egos underlying all this, or not. But I think they’ve both turned the page and are looking in different directions, with optimism.
It was in the Luke DeCock piece on Karmanos that the low budget figure got all the attention here.
The sales prospectus prepared by Allen & Co., investment bank Karmanos hired, touts a reduction in expenses in excess of $10 million and possibly as much as $15 million as a step toward consistent profitability. In a meeting with News & Observer editors and reporters, Karmanos confirmed that kind of savings could only come through cutting player salaries by a quarter.
Then Rutherford was questioned about it by Adam Gold and he answered
“Some of these things you’re telling me are new to me, as far as [Karmanos’] comments today. So I will try to answer your questions as best I can, but what you’re telling me, some of the comments, I have not heard some of these comments until you told me.”
More from that conversation:
Rutherford responded that he believed that the franchise was in a good position to go in that direction [cutting salaries by 25%]. He said “in this year I think we are positioned pretty well to go in that direction. There are cycles where you don’t have young prospects coming up, and there are cycles where you do, and we’re in one of those cycles. We had already talked about going into a transition of this team.”
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
And doing the math, if you use a salary budget last year of $56mil and reduce that by 25% you’re at only $42 mil, so the $44mil is a $12mil reduction (not $15mil) and not quite at 25% already. I don’t see that going much higher if the re-capitalization is going to happen.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Karmanos and the Budget and Recapitalization
I think the numbers of $10 million to $15 million came from Allen & Co. assessing the profit/loss statements and cash flow and then coming up with a business model. I tend to think $10 million off of $56 million is the Hurricanes high end of the budget until (1) a buyer is found and/or (2) the Hurricanes are in the middle of a playoff run and revenues increase from increased fan attendance. I suspect that once a buyer is found and the closing occurs, Peter Karmanos will see the lay of the land. I personally would prefer that the Hurricanes keep their powder dry and have the money available to keep the kids on the team.
To the extent the budget relates to whether Whitney should return, my take is that HMof2 is right on target with the psychology involved. The language and tone is not of a GM who feels betrayed, but it is one of a GM who feels Whitney lead him on to some degree; and that if Whitney really wanted “that big final contract” he should have told Rutherford. I do believe Whitney loves it at Carolina; and that Whitney was not intentionally pulling Jim Rutherford’s chain. On the other hand, I’ve been in negotiations involving equivalent money and the language is always highly nuanced in those situations.
Despite the criticism I read about Jim Rutherford from some people here at CC, many of whom I have come to respect greatly for their insights, I think Jim Rutherford is an excellent GM. He is too experienced to be naive; and to me, it sounds as if Jim Rutherford felt he had given Whitney and Whitney’s agent enough information to help him help Whitney and to help the team. Jim Rutherford would have traded Whitney as fast as he traded Cullen and Corvo if he sensed Whitney wanted to maximize his last contract.
As much as I like Whitney, and I really do like him, I think it is time to turn the page. The only caveat is that Jim Rutherford and Whitney make one final push as significant concessions. I should add that with the economy the way it is and many team’s finances looking somewhat dubious, there is probably less of a market for a talented 38 year old wing who plays Whitney’s kind of game than one might think. I wonder if the lack of GM’s clamoring Whitney, Whitney, Whitney (as I really thought Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and LA should), may signal that Whitney is viewed as a $2.8 million to as much as $3.2 player on a one year basis. We’ll see.
A further elaboration
What I don’t understand is that if I were representing Whitney, I’d be much more worried about having Whitney stay at Carolina for $2.6 million on a Glen Wesley basis and I’d be beating the bushes to increase his revenue/compensation by having him appear in various commercials and other peripheral income-generating endorsements.
The only way to represent another person as their counsel is to put their interests 150% first; and that doesn’t mean sacrificing long term benefits to the client for short term gratification. I see Whitney as missing a chance at a win-win situation and that he will regret this decision for a long, long time.
Not trying to be mean here, but if you were representing Whitney and not trying to get him as much money as possible you wouldn’t be a very good agent.
Also, I’m betting the number for Whitney is closer to $2million.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Been there, done that
As an agent, depending on the representation agreement, the agent gets paid on the amount of the contract. I don’t know whether a standard agreement includes endorsement deals. I suspect so, but don’t know that for a fact.
In Whitney’s situation, there is a limited market for 38 year old, 5’10" wings who have amazing hockey minds but are not blazingly fast and who are not particularly physical. The agent may well be able to negotiate a one year contract for $3.2 million and the Hurricanes may be offering hypothetically $2.6 million. What happens if Whitney does not meld well with the new team? They buy him out if they have a two year contract. They certainly are not likely to add him to their staff.
The Hurricanes were prepared to pay Glen Wesley as long as he wanted to play. I believe the Hurricanes would keep Whitney on the team as long as he could produce 20 goals or more. Long-term Whitney was better served by a smaller contract with an organization that valued his skill set.
Whitney’s career has shown there are teams willing to trade him or waive him. I don’t think the lock out affected Whitney as much as the fact that the Hurricanes recognized Whitney’s strengths and put him in a position to succeed – and Whitney responded with excellent, excellent play. It is not a given that Whitney would be that excellent with any team. I think Whitney does do well for Boston, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and LA, for example.
After this scenario, I think it very unlikely that Whitney will be added to the staff. He’s burnt that bridge.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Whitney and Burning Bridges
I agree that it seems that Whitney has burned his bridges, or at least charred them badly. I can’t understand why Whitney didn’t realize that was going to be the natural consequence of the scenario as it unfolded. It seems like a huge error of calculation by Whitney or his agent. Giving up a place on an NHL organization was far too high a cost unless the offer to Whitney was under $2 million.
This is what I still can’t wrap my head around. It seems as if Whitney negotiated from an irrational position. It wouldn’t be the first time, but it is nothing I would expect from Ray.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Well said. I can’t figure out this situation. It’s a classic example of taking a win-win situation and managing to make a mess of it. It is not what I would expect of Whitney.
As much as we’ve focused on Ray (the arrogant greedy villain) somehow doing a bait-and-switch on Rutherford (the bumbling naive victim), did the Canes organization anticipate a self-imposed salary cap of $44 mil or even $46 mil in February? It may be that $2.5mil/yr 2 year sounded pretty good back then until the boys at Allen & Co did broke out the ledgers.
I also think the as much as Karmanos loves the Canes, he’s also a money guy and a deal-maker and making the money numbers work successfully and with the admiration of the upper-echelon of financial circles is just as thrilling for him. He’s an entrepreneur and he gets the same adrenalin rush as he might get from winning a play-off series when he himself can pull off a big deal.I think that’s the game he’s competing in now. Maybe tired of relying on players to do it for him (think how helpless he must have felt last November), he wants to be the big hero and succeed where he does best. It would be very cathartic for him after the risks he took failed so conspicuously last season.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very insightful.
The budgetary constraints, although seemingly forseeable from management’s view, changed the rules going forward.
Paradigm shift.
JR mentioned a few weeks back that he, Jason Karamanos, and Mike Amendola had been looking over the books for a year. If they didn’t know the salary range by the trade deadline then either the consultants they hired were completely inept of they were fooling themselves.
In business there’s something called the 80/20 rule. Roughly speaking it means that 80% of your results come from 20% of your inputs. The team had to of had 20% of the inputs by January 1 and likely much more by the trade deadline time. Allen & Co, if they’re worth their fee, had to of at least had a range for salary level for this coming season by that point in time.
The paradigm shift happened in October or November of last year, and even by then it was already anticipated. The only way the game plan changes between the trade deadline and now is if either a) Gale Force refused to accept reality, which runs counter to the desire to get younger that had already began, or b) the consultants were inept, which also seems unlikely given that they are still handling the process.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Hindsight is 20/20.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
So, how do you explain JR’s “this is news to me” statement when told that PK had stated earlier that day that the salary budget needed to be cut by $10M-$15M next season?
Yeah, but to be fair, wasn’t that comment really more in the context that JR wasn’t in town when PK met with the N&O, and therefore couldn’t fairly comment on exactly what he said because he wasn’t there to hear it, versus JR flat out not knowing that his salary budget was decreasing?
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by Jamie Kellner on Jun 16, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I heard that interview, and that was not the impression I had.
JR hesitated before answering, like he truly had not heard this news before.
It was not a “well, I can’t comment specifically because I wasn’t there to hear it”. It was more like “this is news to me”.
I thought that JR actually answered the question first, talking about how the organization was positioned to go in that direction (reduced salaries), then said he wanted to point out that he was out of town and that the actual comments were new to him. Like C-Leaguer said, maybe it was something he already knew about but didn’t know it was public information. Were I in that same kind of situation, where my boss had a conversation I wasn’t privy to, I’d have probably responded the same way regardless of what I knew.
Peter Karmanos and Jim Rutherford are smart business people. Granted he doesn’t have much of a filter, but I find it very hard to believe that PK would talk openly about something he’d never discussed with his good friend and business partner.
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by Jamie Kellner on Jun 16, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I think LTD sums that up correctly, bus assuming Elsker’s line of thought then I would have to go back to one of the two reasons, either the management wasn’t facing reality or the consultants aren’t worth a darn. I don’t have enough data to make an educated guess one way or the other.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
I think like most businesses it was a fluid situation. there are a lot of other factors than salary that determine the budget and the P&L and the sale price. Some of which are tied to other investment opportunities out there and interest rates. Perhaps the variables all went to their worst extremes and they were all in denial that that could ever happen. See most corporate implosions the last several years (real estate, Detroit, to BP).
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Other businesses aren’t like hockey, and particularly like the Hurricanes. Salaries are the overwhelming majority of the cost of the bussines, on the order of 70-75% IIRC. Much of the remaining is fixed costs (i.e. travel to and from games, hotel rooms, etx). The easiest and biggest way to cut costs is through salary.
As for P&L the team knows what it’s taken in in years past and knows what it’s spent. All that is delivered to the NHL now as per the CBA for revenue sharing. It shouldn’t have been too hard to extrapolate what cost level they needed to be at to be profitable.
If they really had been looking over the books for a year as JR said then they should of had a rough idea for salary level for the upcoming season. If they had a consultant working with them then they should of had at least two scenarios, one for the ASG and one without the ASG. If they had a total NHL payroll number, which should have been easy, it would of been a quick calculation to figure out what was already allocated, what remained, and what of that could reasonably be paid to Whitney.
Again, if this wasn’t done I can only say it’s due to ineptitude of the consultants of failure of management to recognize their position.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
One other option I hadn’t considered, since it’s an assumption of the other two, is that JR is lying about looking over the books for a year. If this is a new development then it would explain the issue with Ray Whitney. There may have in fact of been a deal, or at least the framework of one, that had to be reneged on by one party.
That said, if JR isn’t being honest when discussing the sale of part of the team it makes me more worried about what is actually going on.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
They also had to see about the trip to Helsinki and what the NHL pays for and what they cover and don’t get in revenues for a home game at the RBC. And again the Cap rates and Interest rates and other franchises becoming available (StLouis, the sale of TBL may have affected the going ratios). Heck the unemployment rate in the triangle which might have affected the pro-formas. Are Season Ticket sales down? Maybe that’s “new” information.
These are strange times. No assumptions can be made.
You’re focusing on expenses, when the income is/was also an unknown. And the net is the magic number.
I think it’s all way complicated for us to speculate on, with the snippets of conversations we’ve heard.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Income is directly related to ticket sales. Merch, food and beverage, parking all do projections based off of ticket sales. Once you have a projection for ticket sales then you have a revenue projection. The things you mentioned effect the total, but only on a marginal basis.
Again, remember the 80/20 rule. 80 percent of the results come from 20 percent of the input. Once you get that 20% you’ve got yourself in to a range to work from. Additional input can help narrow the range, but it’s probably not going to get you in to a new range.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Got it. Wonder if Karmanos actually said he was cutting player salaries by 25% in the meeting or whether Luke divined that from this comment, which was the only direct quote I could find from Karmanos.
"We run a very efficient franchise," Karmanos said. "Your real choice is the $56 million on the top (of the cap range) or $41 million on the bottom for salaries. That’s where you can do most of your work."
So the $44m is the calculation everyone is guessing based on that comment, right?
Will be interesting to see where everything actually falls out, salary-wise. When does the NHL announce next year’s cap? Not that it affects our top-line spending, but it does affect what other teams can do.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
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by Jamie Kellner on Jun 16, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Salary Cap for Next Season
The salary cap is likely to be increased by the request of the NHLPA to around $58 million based on comments I’ve read.
Here’s Forslund on the Whitney situation. I missed this on 99.9 last week. About 2 mins.
He doesn’t think this is posturing like LaRose/Cole a year ago. He thinks there is genuine interest in Whitney around the NHL, and he guesses he could make a little less than he did last year. (My guess is $3mil) He doesn’t see that kind of offer coming from the Canes. He is disappointed because he thinks Whitney would be an essential leader in the room and on the ice for the new kids. He says it’s complicated, not necessarily a dead issue, really hard to say that’s it’s 100% closed.
But he doesn’t sound like he sees Ray returning to Raleigh without some major concessions from both sides.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for posting the interview. It doesn’t surprise me, but I agree with John Forslund 200%. This is what I believe to be the situation, without all the scorned villains and jilted lovers.
And HM, I don’t think his comment about LaRose and Cole was about posturing at all, which perhaps I’m taking your point wrong but I consider posturing being about the negotiation process itself. I thought he said the situation with them was different because the market for them was different than it likely will be for Whitney.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jun 16, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe a subtlety of definition on posturing – limited by typed up comments, but I guess JR’s comments of July 1 09, that LaRose is gone, no more will happen were followed up 24 hours later by he’s signed a deal (Rioting in the street ensues). I don’t think the Whitney situation is similar and so I’m not holding out hope that recent comments from Rutherford are part of the negotiations, playing disinterested or hard to get in order to have Whitney come back with bigger concessions.
Here’s my fanpost: “LaRose and JR call it quits” from 8:29pm on July 1, 2009 where I was the very public sucker. Never again. ;)
I absolutely agree there is no villain/victim here. That’s just everyone else projecting their emotions. I’m still not sure if you think Whitney is pretty likely to come back and the comments are a smoke screen.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I realize I’m not explaining myself correctly, so I apologize for that.
Forslund said that there were differences between LaRose/Cole last year and Whitney this year. Then he went on to explain that the markets are different, there wasn’t much interest (in his words) for LaRose/Cole but there will be for Whitney. I didn’t take his comment to be about JR at all, or about the negotiation process, just the market for the players, which is why I said I didn’t think the comment about posturing applied to Forslund’s specific point.
And I have no freaking clue whether or not Ray Whitney will return. I don’t think the comments are a smoke screen. I think they are what they are. What I’ve never thought is that either side was speaking with ill will toward the other. That’s the whole point I’ve been trying to make.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jun 16, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL and I wrote that before I read the comments above ^^^ that Whitney has burned his bridges.
That’s an example of what I do NOT believe to be the case.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jun 16, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
So hear me out, even though this idea wouldn’t be popular with the fans… I don’t even like that I thought of it…
Canes could always trade Ward mid-season. If Peters proves to be a decent #1 goalie, with Cam’s questionable back, not sure he’s a foundation of the organization anymore. It would free up a bunch of cap space and there’s plenty of clubs out there looking for a goalie.
"The increase in pain is way beyond what you would expect a person to play with," said coach Paul Maurice. "Unfortunately it’s even beyond what Tim Gleason can play with, because he can play with just about anything."
I don’t think Peterrs is the guy. 30 teams and no where enough killer goalies to go around. Cam was/maybe is a good one. I don’t think Petrs is ion that catagory. Leights just played for the Cup. Hard to think or believe we had a Cupo champ, a Cup contender in Leights and now we have another starter in Peters?
Even with Barasso, I don’t think that many planets line up and Peters perf. last had some holes. I still think Legace was the band aid/bridge, not Peters.
A
'09-'10 needed more than a spoonful of sugar, felt like a broken glass and battery acid suppository.
Young hockey players, the future, the answer. Learn it, then live it.
La la la la la la la la la. I can’t hear you.
I think it would be a mistake to trade him mid-season or at any point really. There aren’t nearly enough top tier goalies and as wonderful as Peters is, there is no guarantee that he’ll ever be more than a 20-25 game guy. Plus I’d really like to give Cam’s back a whole season of testing before we write him
off as broken. I know bad backs often stay bad, but he has access to better care and supervision (not to mention he’s already in better shape) than the average person. That counts for something. I’m putting my faith in the hands of the team that they wouldn’t turn a blind eye to a serious problem with one of their major investments and that Cam is, indeed, fine. Or as fine as you can be if you’re an NHL goalie.
"What Carolina really has going for them is Brandon Sutter. When that kid first showed up, he looked like a skinny little thing that wouldn’t last two weeks. But he’s turned into a real star."
by caniacgirl on Jun 16, 2010 7:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
gee this thread is getting longer
and longer…like many of you here I too like respect and appreciated the heck out of ray Whitney’s efforts especially these last 2 seasons…and i know that in this day & age if a player of any major sport doesn’t have a “decent” again i say decent agent…the player is either a direct family member or 1st cousin to Bill gates so money will never be an issue but in the real world money & fiscal security is an issue even for those of you here who do have jobs with benefits …I too want to see ray resigned…but I’ll not hold my breath…and all this fan is doing at the moment is sit back and wait and prepare for the draft, and etc as this long and hot summer progresses…gee i hate to see what my duke energy bill is going to be as i got my “stat” set at 78…like JR I am being " cheap !!! :-}
all of us here do have verey interesting sides and take on this..and more likely than NOT several of you will be closer to correct & right than most of us will be…and in closing many of us here who do go and snoop and peek at other blogs…who do have knowledgable fans…but i am proud to say without fear of contradiction that we caniac here in the southeast have and are more hockey savvy than the other teams fans are…so in that for a buch of “country hicks” as many in the other fan bases and commentators portray us …boy are they ever oh so freaking wrong !! personally i’d put the likes of many of you here way ahead of several professional sports commentaters who sadly at times have gotten it wrong…well i be done on this for the moment…be good,be safe and play nice folks…it’s gonna get & be too freaking hot to “over do IT” today…hehehe
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
Nino is The One !
TKO-keep
I gotta say it would’t make much sense to trade Tommy. This has to fall under the heading of “IF IT AIN’T BROKE- DON’T FIX IT”!!!!!!!!!!! We need checkers, and Tommy does it quite well.
I don’t see TKO or LaRose going anywhere. Just my sense of things. Picard maybe, but not sure who’s looking for him. It would be us approaching someone who has a player we want. I think they’re only looking to the farm for homegrown youth these days.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 16, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
"Picard maybe"...
I’ve been wondering about him, cuz JR hasn’t really said much (if anything) about him. Unless JR has his eye on someone we could get in a trade (Picard), I suspect they’ll sign him for around a mil!!
Bob McKenzie and Skinner;
For those folks who think the Canes may take Skinner, McKenzie has a tweet that he won’t be surprised if Skinner goes in the top 10. Another good reason to get Twitter is to get info from McKenzie among others.
roddy brind'amour
i’m thinking this is now out of roddy’s hands. he is going to have to either retire and be bought out at this point or be pushed out. i just don’t think this is his choice anymore. his salary is too expensive for him to not score or really do much on the ice. i mean the nhl is brutal but you gotta suck it up. i think roddy’s number might be up.
Rod Brind'Amour Beatdown at Kukla's Korner
http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/psh/comments/worst_20_adjusted_counting_stat/
A beatdown on Rod Brind’Amour is published at Kuklas Korner. He ranks Rod Brind’Amour as the worst in the NHL for adjuster plus minus. Here is his take on Brind’Amour:
“His career has fallen apart in the last couple years with his increasing age. He was the worst on this list last year as well.”
Next year
I don’t care how we slice and dice it———-buyouts, loss of veteran leadership (ie Whit etc) and filling the roster with AHL rookies, untested for a full NHL season, operating on the cheap at the bottom of the cap range———-does not make this season ticket holder enthusiastic about the teams prospects for next season !
The team looks weak, inexperienced and lacking in depth. The defense is weak, past the first two, the center position is shakey——and can we score the goals we need?
Unless JR does some magic over the next two weeks, I see us as bottom feeders again next year. I don’t see why everyone on this board seems to have no concerns. What do you see that I don’t?
GO CANES! Go Heels!
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