Sunday News - Trade Winds Are Picking Up
by Bob Wage on Jun 20, 2010 8:00 AM EDT
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PrintSB Nation had a major meltdown on Saturday morning due to some host server issues. For those of you who tried but could not access the site, we apologize for the inconvenience.
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The Nashville Predators were very busy yesterday as they traded captain Jason Arnott to the New Jersey Devils in exchange for Matt Halischuk and a second round draft pick in next year's draft. The Preds are now in the market for a new center and need to make a decision about a captain.
Before that move, they traded away the rights to defenseman Dan Hamhuis to the Philadelphia Flyers. Hamhuis was due to hit the free agency market on July 1 and obviously the Predator brass decided that they were not able to re-sign him. At least they got something in return as the Flyers sent Ryan Parent to Music City.
Nashville seems to have patented this move. They traded the rights to pending free agents Scott Hartnell and Kimmo Timonen three years ago in a very similar trade. They also traded the rights to Darcy Hordichuk to the Hurricanes a couple of years back for a 5th round draft pick, but Hordichuk never signed with the Canes so the club had their 5th rounder returned for the following year.
If Nashville can continue to do this repeatedly, maybe the Canes could try something like this for the rights to Ray Whitney? If they do not re-sign him, it would be nice to get something in return.
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Dale Tallon is reportedly shopping several of the Florida Panthers, including 2003 draft pick Nathan Horton. While it might be tempting for some teams to bring Horton in the fold, he won't come cheap as he still has three years left on his contract which will pay him $4 million, $4.5 million, and $5.5 million. He's never quite lived up to his billing down in Sunrise but perhaps a change in scenary would do him good.
Word on the street is that the next couple of weeks are going to be very busy as far as trades go. The Draft is always a busy time anyway, so expect teams to continue to move players next weekend in Los Angeles.
Will the Canes trade anyone? We will see.
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Radio Ga Ga Returns:
We have decided to try another Blog Talk Radio Show, this time without the help of our friend at Puck Drops, Brian LaBlanc. We didn't really have time to bother Brian for the use of his studio this time around, so we will be calling in from our homes and doing the show amateur style.
Cory and Hockey Mom will be joining me on the switchboard Tuesday night starting at 8 p.m. There will be plenty to talk about as the NHL will have released the Hurricanes' schedule earlier that day and of course the Entry Draft will occur this coming Friday and Saturday. We might also talk a bit about the free agency market or any other topics that come up.
As before, there will be an open thread running and you may leave questions there, or you will be able to call in to the show and ask questions that way if you please. There will be a recording available afterward as a podcast.
We'll have more information about this on Tuesday.
I'm finishing up my "Mockery of the Draft" and will publish that either late Sunday or early Monday morning. While most mock drafts do not include any trades, (is that a rule or something?), mine will. So beware!
Happy Father's Day!
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Favorites indeed. Pronger and Hamhuis combined with all that talent up front. That team is going to be nasty next season and will be a pain to put out come playoff time.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Meh. The marginal benefit of a 5th top-4 D is probably less than a 4th top-4 D (i.e. adding Hamhuis as #4 would be more helpful than adding Hamhuis as #5, because the 3rd pair still has one weak player and won’t get too many minutes). They still need a goalie (Ellis?) which is feasible. We’ll see.
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by red army line on Jun 20, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I honestly don’t think they need much of an upgrade at goal. They could keep Boucher and Emery and be fine with the addition of Hamhuis.
This may be premature, but it looks to me like the goaltender era is over. Depth at defense or depth at forward are better uses of the limited cap space over goaltenders. I think putting the money in to Hamhuis as opposed to signing a top tier free agent goalie will yield more benefit for the Flyers.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
+1
When you see Niemi vs. Leighton in the Stanley Cup Finals I think you can safely say that a great defense (as both Chicago and Philly had) can easily make up for a mediocre goalie.
They need a goalie that makes that first save. Niemi can. Leighton I wouldn’t trust anymore. Boucher maybe. Emery can’t say.
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by red army line on Jun 20, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we’ve been blessed the last couple decades to have 2 of the best ever playing at the same time (Brodour and Roy). If you look at other time periods, you may have a couple really dominant G’s and then a bunch of “who’s?”.
I hope Nabokov eventually wins a cup, he will have a lot of wins under his belt when all is said and done. Seems like every year he’s at the top of W’s column.
Nabokov just seems to fold when it matters most.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Fold, he does, but he’s got more wins the last 3 seasons than Sucess Kid
Granted, any dedicated fan (and Jeremy Roenick) will tell you that a great career means nothing without the cup. I do like to hope for the best for the Sharks when the Canes and HAwks aren’t involved.
Thanks Bob
and first of all CC blog is just a small part or “tenant” in the total SB Nation network…you have nothing to apologise for…it was their problem..not yours.
And to Gillimus, you hit a bullseye there…to me it seems that the Preds Ownership is doing nothing more than dumping players they know thet can’t or won’t be able to keep let alone sign. While it may be perfectly legal according the current CBA, but sure doesn’t make the Preds look like a team that has a sound business reputation & operational mode does it ? And sadly there is NOTHING but air stopping JR to do the same thing is there ??
Happy Father’s Day to all you dads out there..
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
Nino is The One !
Add the Devils to the "Big trades, they are a-comin’ " story:
Stan Fischler columnist for MSG just tweeted:
Wow! Lou Lamoriello says he’s going to make changes “that will surprise people.” Which means nobody is a guaranteed Devil, except Parise.
It's gonna be a long summer.
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 20, 2010 9:05 AM EDT reply actions
My Dream trade for the day:
Tuomo Ruutu + 7th Overall Pick
to Anaheim for
Bobby Ryan + 29th Overall Pick
I personally think that’s a bit too much for Bobby Ryan.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Maybe
Tuomo + 7th Overall + 46th Overall
for
Bobby Ryan + 12th Overall
Then we still get an amazing D in Pysyk, Merrill, Forbert, ect. (likely whoever we want). Or pick up a guy like Granlund at 12.
Don’t forget Bobby Ryan is already a 1st line lock. He will be a 40+ goal scorer in the future, he already has nearly a ppg pace over his 2 year career. My only concern is how much he wants as an RFA… Most sources say he is looking for a 4 year deal that would put him into Unrestricted Free Agency, I would guess he wants $4-5 million a year. I think that is a huge upgrade over Tuomo who doesn’t really make that much less.
However the draft picks work out, there’s no question that your dream trade is an upgrade on the first line right wing position, at least as far as offensive production and probably games played.
Would require a physical left wing, but that’s potentially findable from within and obtainable from without.
Is Ryan the subject of trade rumors? Wonder why, if so.
http://ducks.ocregister.com/2010/06/19/ryans-not-frustrated-but-kind-of-worried/38389/
Is kind of weird, Anaheim came out immediately after the season and said they will not trade Ryan and resigning him is their #1 priority… Then ever since every report has said they haven’t even contacted him yet. I like that he said he isn’t asking for ridiculous money (although he stands to take a discount if he wants a 4 year contract that leads to UFA status). He is an amazing player, a lot of people (including myself) expected him to break out big time last season. He wasn’t quite a 100 point player, but 35 goals and 64 points in 81 games is still pretty good for a Sophomore. Funny enough, Hockeybuzz even listed the Hurricanes as one of the two potential teams that would look at stealing him using an Offer Sheet.
Ryan is an RFA and due a lot of money. No thanks.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 20, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Florida Panthers
I wouldn’t be too terribly surprised if we made some deals with Florida though, Dale Tallon is good friends with JR and they made many a trade while Tallon was GM of Chicago. There isn’t anyone I’d really want outside the #3 Overall pick or Horton (Although not if Horton costs us our #7 Overall). It would be really cool if we could do:
Pitkanen + a 2nd Round Pick
for
- Overall
For the number 3 Overall pick that is. Then we would certainly be a rebuilding team next year, but at least it gives us a great start for the future.
That’s interesting, but I don’t think Florida will take Joni if they want to rebuild.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
I think there are about 29 teams in the NHL that would have serious interest in Pitkanen if he hit the trade market. He is young (26), played the most minutes per game out of anyone in the NHL last year (by a good margin), can QB a powerplay, and still manages to play decent defense while chipping in 40-50 points a year. Exactly why we won’t be able to afford him next year.
NONSENSE
You don’t know what’s gonna happen this year, and you’re trying to tell us what’s happening next year?? I don’t think so!! Of all the things we might do, trading Joni would be one of the less enlightened ones IMO.
I know that we will still be a budget team next year. I also know that Pitkanen will easily be one of the top Free Agents (probably the best young D). I’m guessing he will make $5-6 million a season. We will already have Sutter, Boychuk, Bowman, Tlusty, and Osala all as RFAs to have to re-sign. Sutter alone will likely require $3-4 million a year if we plan on keeping him and we will probably have zero budget to work with again.
Where do we get the money to compete with teams that can spend to the Cap?
Of all the players you just named, pitkanen is the hardest to replace. If he continues to progress I could see the canes paying him top dollar one day. I don’t think they’ll trade pitkanen.
by TylerA7707 on Jun 20, 2010 11:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Pitkanen and the Hurricanes
I agree with randycane. I just don’t see the Hurricanes trading Pitkanen unless they got a deal that even Pitkanen’s mother if she were GM couldn’t refuse.
So you think the Canes will fork over the $5-6 million a year next season to retain him? On top of having to pay Sutter $3-4 million a year?
That scares me at our budget…
Why do you think that
Sutter will get 3-4 million? If he duplicates what he did last year as a 20/20 player, then he can thank his lucky stars to get 2 million!
To put it into perspective, Scotty Upshall, a player with first line potential, is getting paid 2.25 this year by the Phoenix Coyotes. Assuming we have Sutter pegged as our second line center, then no way will JR fork over 4 million.
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jun 20, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Sutter’s last season was not overlooked by any NHL GM, everyone knows what kind of special player he can be. Solid in almost all areas of the game and emerging as a 20 goal scorer last year, he is starting to look awfully like Ryan Kesler. He already has proven he can be a great 2nd line Center. Kesler makes $5 million a year, I say Sutter makes $3 million at least.
If you were a rival NHL GM, would you pass up on giving an offer sheet to Sutter at $2 million? I think you would have to be crazy.
I totally agree with that, but I very highly doubt that JR even lets Sutter get one whiff of Restricted Free Agency. But i really have a hard time seeing JR give that much money to a person who had played two years in the NHL. After his second contract, if he turns into Ryan Kessler or even better, Ryan Getzlaf then yes, show him the money.
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jun 20, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
If he has a mediocre or bad season next year (Under 20 goals or 50 points), I can see him being re-signed for $2-3 million.
If he continues to improve like he did this year, has a great season like I would expect, and scores 20-25 goals again… I think we are in trouble and the offer-sheets could be coming.
Pitkanen and Sutter
I think the Hurricanes will realize that they have to pay Pitkanen fmv in order to keep him; and that their alternatives are not great. I can’t think of a more physically talented defenseman that the Hurricanes (not Whalers) have had. Wesley was awesome, but he didn’t have Pitkanen’s skating ability. Similarly, the Hurricanes are going to keep Sutter and will also pay him fmv. One reason for the low, low budget this year is to have the funds available to pay for the young talent, including Sutter, Jokinen, and Pitkanen.
I have never heard them say that they are saving their money for next year… What I understood was that the financial report stated the Canes could run a profitable business if they cut expenses by $10-15 million (which can only come from player salaries) and that was their plan. Where did they say they were saving money for next year?
One reason for the low, low budget this year is to have the funds available to pay for the young talent…
Excuse me, but I fail to understand this statement.
They’re not establishing a Christmas savings account, you know.
How does cheaping out this season mean we’ll definitely now be able to pay more in the future?!?
Reducing Salary
It seems obvious to me that in order to sign players like Sutter, Pitkanen, and Jokinen that the Hurricanes can’t commit $54 million to salaries this year unless they have a series of one year deals. Look at Chicago. Also, Karmanos and Jim Rutherford continued to say that this year the salary budget was lowered $10 million to $15 million. I had always assumed people following the Hurricanes realized that the Hurricanes were going to do whatever it took to keep Sutter and probably Jokinen and Pitkanen. It isn’t a fire sale in my opinion. Also, this year the ASG was going to have inherent additional expenses. I have seen estimates of anywhere from $4 million to $7 million more. I think the idea that the Hurricanes were suddenly going to challenge the salary cap floor on a regular basis is unfounded and incorrect.
I think we should pay Pits, but I can definitely see the organization letting Pits and Jussi go because of money. Sutter is no doubt a keeper and will probably be offered between $2.5 and $3.25 for 3 more years.
To say the Canes will be consistent cap dwellers COULD be incorrect, but is not unfounded. Based on the investment company saying PK needs to cut $10 to $15 million leads to the ASSUMPTION that the teams is bleeding money. That would make the close to cap dwellers a very reasonable business move.
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by PackPride17 on Jun 20, 2010 3:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The financial analysis they had done on the organization stated that the team could be profitable only if expenses were cut by $10-15 million. Karmanos said those cuts could only come from player salaries. They are going to sell a portion of the team under this strict business plan which they have already said they have adopted.
If they were just cutting salary this year to pay for Sutter, Pitkanen, and Jussi next year I think they would have come out and said it. The reality is that NHL owners who spend to the Cap every year lose money, Karmanos can no longer afford to do that.
But its not like were going to offer 5-6 million straight up from the ground. We are just giving Pitkanen a raise of .5-1.5 million. The fact that we already spend 4.5 million on him, and the fact that we traded Cole for him, says to me that JR is not going to let him walk over .5-1.5 million dollars.
Now, Pitkanen could easily say “!@#$ NO!” to us, and just walk in which case, ship his sorry butt out of here. But to say that JR is too cheap and won’t go after him at all is very premature.
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jun 20, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Canes decide that they are going to keep payroll south of $45 million, then it’s only a matter of time before the franchise leaves. Sure, there’s several million coming off the payroll in 11-12, but if this team doesn’t resign Jussi and Pits and Sutter then they need to relocate. I can’t root for a team with Staal, Ward, and a bunch of $500k players.
That conclusion can’t be lost on Peter Karmanos, as well. The idea is the Hurricanes need to be competitive to make enough revenue to continue to grow the team. I really think people are overreacting to an amazing degree. It’s an ASG year. It’s a recession. The Hurricanes had a big budget this year that didn’t work out. They have some excellent young talent and they have 11 draft picks. People need to chill out and wait for the draft and the start of the season. The “sky is falling” mentality is hard to fathom.
I think they will re-sign Sutter and Jussi (along with Boychuk, Bowman, Osala, and Tlusty as RFAs). But that is a lot of raises to give and will probably eat up much of the available budget created by Brind’Amour, Samsonov, Cole, and Larose possibly going. We could probably resign Pitkanen and be alright, but I doubt there would be a dollar left for any other changes.
Assuming that they resign Pitkanen, Sutter and Jokinen duplicate what they did last year, and the four RFA’s you mentioned don’t suck (and one of them becomes a stud), then I would be alright with that team, at least for the time being.
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jun 20, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The Canes can still stay $10-15 million under the Cap and be a fringe Playoff team, just look at Nashville. Just means no exciting top-end players will ever be brought in, Staal will still skate by on the excuse that he has no one good to play with, and we will be lucky to make it out of the 1st Round of the Playoffs.
I do think by adding a potential superstar like Seguin though a lot of things change. High risks for high rewards.
According to Cap Geek, this year Pitkanen made 4.5 mil
So your saying that the Canes are going to lose one of the best defencmen that this franchise has ever had over .5-1.5 million dollars? Especially with Brind’Amour, Cole, LaRose and Samsonov all coming of off contracts? I just do not see it.
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jun 20, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sorry, I think the Canes WILL offer him $4.5 or $5 million (tops) to keep him. I also think there are teams that will offer him $5.5-6 million. Would Pitkanen take the extra million a year? Would he rather go to a team like Pittsburgh or Washington where he has is on a Cup favorite team instead of a Cap bottom feeder team?
Take Whitney for example… The hole he leaves is a pretty damn big one as we don’t have a 1st line Winger to take his place (just as Pitkanen would leave a hole in the D if he left). JR probably offered Ray $2 or $2.5 million. Ray probably wants $3 or $3.5 million. And yet I think the Canes will let him walk over the $500k or $1 million.
Whitney vs. Pitkanen
Whitney is an aging winger who may or may not crash and burn next year due to said aging. His departure, while big, can be replaced.
Pitkanen is about to enter his prime, and is so important to our defensive and offensive games that when you look up a Carolina Hurricanes in the dictionary, you see his face.
I fail to see why the Hurricanes would let him walk over such a small amount as .5 to 1.5, especially with Brin’Amour, Cole and Samsonov leaving freeing about about 11 million dollars. It just makes little sense
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jun 20, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
What big name free agent can you name in recent years that has just rolled over and accepted a hometown discount? Even Cole and Larose wanted to “test the market” and see if they could get a better deal elsewhere… I agree with you that Pitkanen is worth the extra $1-2 million to keep, maybe even the Canes do. But come July 1 2011, do you honestly think the Canes can compete with teams that have unlimited budget? Maybe you under-estimate how much highly Pitkanen is thought of across the league.
I’m just being realistic, why would Pitkanen want to stay here for less money when he could go to a serious perennial Cup contender who is willing to pay him more? Especially when they won’t overwork him for 30 minutes every single night.
I’m not saying that he will accept a hometown discount though.
I’m saying that, assuming his market value is 6 mil max, then thats just a raise of 1.5 mil from what we are currently paying him. JR and PK would either be idiotic, or ridiculously cheap to let a stud defensman who is a rock on our defense and is the main cog of our offense to leave over a raise of 1.5 mil
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jun 20, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
There are plenty, but none on teams that wouldn’t be considered “contenders” (i.e. Backstrom, Crosby, Hossa, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Toews, Keith, etc)
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by red army line on Jun 20, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty sure JR offering Whitney the amount he did had more to do with his age and mid-level value. Pitkanen is young, productive and in the top15 for NHL defenseman, which I don’t think JR would low-ball. By comparison, Whitney is serviceable, but likely won’t be in the league for more than 3 additional years if he is lucky. To say JR’s unwillingness to pay Whitney is going to be the same approach he is going to take with Pits is ridiculous and unfounded. Why would he only offer Pits what he has been making despite his increased production? If Sutter continues to improve are we only going to offer him a contract value he has already reached? NOOOOOOO
Comparing JR’s attempts at signing WHitney to how he will approach Pits negotiations is outlandish and uninformed.
I said the comparison was that both players leave big holes if they go. Whitney leaves a huge hole at the first line Wing position and Pitkanen would leave a huge hole in the Defense. I didn’t say JR would offer him the same amount, $4.5 to $5 million is a 500k to $1 million dollar a year raise. Sutter is an RFA which is completely different than a UFA…
I simply don’t think the Canes will be able to outbid other teams for Pitkanen, I don’t think it is that hard to believe. Take Hamhuis and Volchenkov (2 of the top rated UFA D this year)… Both of these D are simply too good and too expensive for their teams to keep them. It happens all the time.
Dont' know bout Vochenkov but
But Hamhuis and Pitkanen are not similar situations. Hamhuis is between studs Suter and Weber and a whole legion of elite d prospects just ready to be studs. Pitkanen is number one here, undisputed, and the only person atm looking to threaten that is McBain, and not for a good long while.
On that note, if McBain comes out and absolutly dominates (and if those 14 games were any indication, its possible), then Pitkanen will definantly become expendable. I just hope that Pitkanen gets a nice contract, cause otherwise we are going to suck 2011-2012
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jun 20, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying any team wouldn’t be interested. I’m saying Florida won’t be because they are going to rebuild yet again. They’re better off drafting a younger player than they are taking on a veteran. They’ll want to control a player for more than a few years as would be the case if they acquired Joni.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
I don’t think Florida can afford to be a rebuilding team. I think they brought in Dale Tallon to make the Playoff THIS season. They are going to make some huge changes this offseason, I think they will acquire some real talent and go big. Vokoun is a great goalie, with some help around him they should be able to make it into the Playoffs. I’m interested in seeing what they get for Horton, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if they moved the #3 Overall Pick for a known quantity to help them also.
Trade um Brindy or Samansov if they want a captain , lol.
Seeing as how the Preds are looking for vet’s w/ experience that could now be captains of their young group of core players send them Samansov or Brindy for another draft pick. We could dump so more payroll if we wanted to.
Go Canes
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jun 20, 2010 2:45 PM EDT reply actions
To Infinity...and Beyond
Okay, take a seat abramdoug, because I’m about to agree with you. :-D
I might be willing to accept that this year’s sudden contraction of the salary budget is an anomaly, not to be repeated the following season.
But, that scenario is highly dependent on keeping the other voting stock out of corporate ownership and in the hands of an entrepreneur who will accept an occasional sports club owner loss, especially in otherwise good economic years.
No question, we live in unsettled times. Cash (and by this, I mean financial liquidity) is a scarce commodity.
Therefore losses are extremely painful, because to raise the cash to cover them means potentially having to turn loose of an asset that’s being scarfed up by bottom-feeding scavengers.
So, I do understand a pull-back on PK’s part as he stabilizes the ship of the corporations that feed his cash flow and allow him the indulgence of being a sports team owner.
Now, throw in an estate, who may or may not even be subject to capital calls to cover losses, and just where is this cash coming from other than cannibalizing assets, all under the screen of a law firm, accountants, and…well, you get the picture.
So, let’s take the cup half-full view for the moment and imagine that perhaps the combo of a rising STH base and a new financial partner with whom to share the risk (and losses) allows JR to let out the clutch on the salary budget in ‘11-’12…and beyond.
I’m willing to believe. But, allow me to also be a bit apprehensive until I see just who’s on PK’s dance card.
If that really is the situation I think it is crappy they KNOWINGLY were going absorb the losses from the ASG and starting the season in Finland simply by cutting player salary. Right now our team could go 0.500 and maybe be a fringe Playoff team… If we spent our remaining $10-15 million in Cap space by obtaining a serious 1st line Winger talent and an established veteran top-4 D we would be downright dangerous. The ASG is very cool, but I think I would give it up if it meant a real shot at another Cup.
ASG irrelevant except...
Any costs related to ASG or Finland are one-time things, and thus irrelevant. By making the playoffs (in conjuntion with more STH’s) the team will break even, or even make money! Stop your worrying, we already have a good core with several prospects on the way. Our future is going up (NOT DOWN) !! BE HAPPY!!!
I don’t understand why “one-time costs” are irrelevant. If the ASG costs the Canes $5-10 million dollars to host, I would think if they hadn’t hosted it than that $5-10 million could have been spent on player salaries.
Same with opening the season in Finland. Apart from traveling expenses, hosting the event, ect… The Canes stand to lose a lot of money because they are effectively losing a home game and all the revenue that comes with it.
The Canes have a decent core, probably better than half the teams in the league. However it is nowhere near the caliber of serious Cup contending teams.
I disagree with your assertion that the Hurricanes now are a fringe team. I think the core team proved in 2008-2009 that it was a top tier team. The 2010-2011 Hurricanes team will have its trials and tribulations; but it is a much more talented team in my opinion that you are giving them credit for being.
Makes Sense
Makes sense to me. If the owner is a corporation trying to maximize immediate profit, the risk is much greater that the salary contraction will be somewhat long term. If on the other hand, the new minority is comprised of one or more passionate NHL individuals, the much greater likelihood is that the salary freeze is short term.
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