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Jim Rutherford: Next Season's Payroll To Be Between $43 to $45 Million

If the organization decides to buy out the last year of Rod Brind`Amour's contract, it will be the toughest decision Jim Rutherford has made as a general manager.  (photo by LTD)

Carolina Hurricanes President and GM Jim Rutherford was interviewed by WRAL's Jason Jennings yesterday afternoon and the head honcho of the Canes confirmed recent speculation about the outlook of frugality the team faces for the coming season.   While the exact salary cap ceiling and floor numbers have yet to be determined by the league and player's union, Rutherford said that the team's budget would be at or near the cap floor which is projected to be between $43 to $45 million.

The club is transitioning to a spending model which will hopefully show potential investors that the franchise can be profitable, even if they do not make it to the playoffs.  But that won't be easy to do, especially if attendance continues to decline.

According to ESPN, the Canes' regular season home attendance dropped by about 55,000, from a total of 679,488 in 2008-09, to 624,873 last season.   Using an average of $60 per ticket, that's a loss of $3,300,000 just in ticket sales. 

The franchise should rebound nicely at the gate this season as they use the All Star game as a carrot to lure back season ticket holders, but will casual fans get behind a young, low budget team, especially if they struggle?

The budget crunch has already handcuffed the general manager into giving fan favorite Ray Whitney a low contract offer, an amount which Rutherford admitted himself that Whitney could beat on the open market.  But the tough days have just started for the Carolina GM.

Star-divide

Rutherford has a couple of very difficult situations in front of him including the possible buyouts of Sergei Samsonov and Rod Brind`Amour.  He told Jennings that if the organization decides to "go in a different direction" with Brind'Amour, it would be very difficult and something he is not comfortable with.  If they decide not to bring Brind'Amour back, it would clearly be the toughest decision he's had to make since being a general manager.

When Jennings asked if the fact that Peter Karmanos was looking for a new ownership partner affected his job he replied, "I think it affects everybody.  We all get a little bit anxious when we look at that situation as to what changes will be brought about with a new investor, whether it’s a partner or whether it’s someone who comes in and wants the whole team."

Not that the Hurricanes are moving anywhere, anytime soon.  Rutherford emphasized that the Carolina market was a "very, very solid" one.  Still, if the team can not turn a profit while operating at the cap floor, more emphasis will have to be placed on attendance or ticket prices.  The club can only cut expenses so much, at some point they have be more concerned about increasing revenue.   

Fans will react in different ways concerning this course of action.  Some will not like the austerity measures while others will prefer watching a younger, hungrier team.   Either way, this will be a very important season for the franchise. 

We will be watching the team's salary every step of the way here at Canes Country.  As you can see from our "Unofficial Salary Chart", the team is already at $44 million.  (That includes salary for Zach Boychuk, Drayson Bowman, Oskar Osala, and Zac Dalpe, prospects who may or may not make the team.)  

But several others still need contracts, like Justin Peters, Brett Carson, Alexandre Picard, (Anton Babchuk), and Jerome Samson.   And even if those players sign minimal deals, it looks like the team will need to cut payroll in order to make everyone fit within the budget.  Brind'Amour's $3 million salary becomes an expensive luxury, especially for a 4rth line or even a 3rd line center. 

If the club buys him out, the cap number stays the same, (which is meaningless at this point), but the team would save $2 million in cash on the budget this year as they would owe him one million this season and another million the following year. 

A Samsonov buyout would save almost as much as he is due to earn $2.8 million this season. 

To watch the entire 17 minute interview, check out this link where HM has embedded the video from WRAL.

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My ticket budget for 2010-11: $43-$45

Now we see why they set an early deadline of May 14 if you wanted to get the ticket freebies or All-Star tickets – so PK and JR could announce the $43-$45 million salary budget.

JR, if you want to make money, you have to get this team into the playoffs. Keep in mind that if you lose paying customers, you lose $10 parking, you lose $10 hotdog combos, $8.50 beers (not from me), $7 Six Dollar Burgers, stops at the Eye between periods, etc.

I thought it was a mistake to sign Sergei for 3 years, based on his history; same for signing Cole (would rather have a younger Justin Williams anyway). and if Babchuk is the answer, we are asking the wrong question.

I’m a fan, but I’d rather save a couple of bucks and watch John and Tripp (although I’d still like a Tripp Tracy mute button at times).

by jbwhite99 on Jun 22, 2010 7:42 AM EDT reply actions  

I’m not sure what others think, but I see this salary/budget issue as a prime reason to dump players like Cole or LaRose. They are both good players and I like them, but they get a lot of money when their production isn’t good. Will JR try to move one or both of those guys (or others) at the draft? He may have to to give himself some monetary breathing room, especially if he still has to sign Peters, Carson, Picard and presumably Babchuk. Friday and Saturday will be very interesting…

by DesertCaniac on Jun 22, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could see one or both of them going as a salary dump. Especially Cole if Nino is signed and the Canes think he can make the team.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can see both of them going at the deadline for sure.

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 23, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, with the guys coming to the end of their contracts and the like of NTCs, I could see a firesale on par with last season if not bigger, given Joni and Jussi.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Like the President

of the United States of America, no matter what you say,think or do,,,there is and will always be someone or some group that will hate your guys…sigh…and this just the begining too !!! I woke up today thankful I did NOT have JR’s job…he’s damed if he does and damed if he don’t…Gee I love being a fan & A Caniac !!

And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
Nino is The One !

by CaniacSteve on Jun 22, 2010 7:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Taking the Tough Times

My approach is probably the exact opposite of jbwhite99. We added one more STH seat because I assumed this year was going to be a challenging one for the organization. My view is that whether with friends, local businesses, or sports teams, when they need me most is when I have to be there for them. It isn’t that I have to agree 100% when I friend’s decisions to still realize they are in tough times and need somebody getting their back.

by abramsdoug on Jun 22, 2010 8:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Amen Doug. Me too. I didn’t add a ticket, but like you, I am following them to the other side of the globe and I’m supporting them strongly next season. I don’t begrudge this financial effort one bit. I might not like it, but I understand why it is. And I think JR knows that and appreciates it.

Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU

by Jamie Kellner on Jun 22, 2010 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

This, I assure you, is not the reaction of the average fan, nor the normal business experience.

by Elsker on Jun 22, 2010 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t consider myself an average fan.

Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU

by Jamie Kellner on Jun 22, 2010 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nor would I consider my relationship to the organization to be a normal business experience.

Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU

by Jamie Kellner on Jun 22, 2010 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t consider any southern business experience as “normal”. Just as an example: northern media buyers typically fail to produce their clients real savings in southern markets. Southern businesses look out for each other, and I don’t think the customer-business relationship is as jaded as most other places.

by Caniac1026 on Jun 22, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

We decided to spend what we saved for Finland on more seats during the regular season instead of the trip to Europe….We went from 2 Full season packages to 4 because of the All Star game mainly, but also because we are trying to infect others with being a Caniac.

If every STH can convert 1 friend into being a Caniac, then our attendance will go up. We converted many non traditional hockey fans into being die hard ticket buying caniacs this year.

The game sells itself. It really only takes 1-2 times before people are addicted. We are most likely not the average fan either though, we plan our life around hockey…not hockey around life. We are lucky enough to be able to save $ for the additional seats this season, but I know this luxury isn’t the same for everyone.

I have come to terms with eating ramen noodles all summer so I can eat $4.50 slices of pizza, and $9 beers all season.

Go Canes!

by camwardsaysno on Jun 22, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Amen.

http://www.prosportsblogging.com

by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 22, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

$$$$$$$'s Doesn't = Championships

It helps. However there are a number of examples where teams spend money and it doesn’t = rings (cups in hockey). Look at the Tampa Bay Rays in baseball. Frugal yes. Competitive yes. ditto for the Twins. We don’t have to spend more….We just have to work smarter. I’ll admit this is somewhat sobering. However I’m a glass is half full kind-of-person so In with the youngsters and go ’Canes!

by Mullett on Jun 22, 2010 8:52 AM EDT reply actions  

On the other hand, most championship teams spend plenty of money, right?

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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

This will be much more common around the NHL this year — many teams simply are not profitable spending anywhere near the cap.

There’s still a huge divide between haves and have nots in this league, and if they’re going to be serious about making some of the newer markets work long term, teams need to be profitable. It’s likely time they lower the floor substantially more and increase revenue sharing.

Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey

by James Mirtle on Jun 22, 2010 9:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Amen to that. If you can get Toronto, Montreal and the Rangers on board then something can happen.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

With all the discussion of what the NHLPA will do with the cap ceiling (and how it affects the Flyers and the Hawks), what is the anticipated effect on the salary floor? I haven’t seen that mentioned anywhere.

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 22, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

The floor is always $16-million lower than the cap. It’s a bad system when the cap has risen so sharply.

Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey

by James Mirtle on Jun 22, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Aha. I didn’t realize it was a fixed number. I thought it would be more a % of the Cap, like 75% or some similar prorated formula. Thanks for that info. This means if they don’t raise it, it would be $40.6 mil this year.

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 22, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

As long as JR and PK are consistent in this value minded approach it is fine

Can not continue to pay a FRIEND to Coach just because he needs a job….if he continues to prove he is not the answer then he has to go as well. Can not cut cost everywhere else and have a glaring instance of Nepotism at Coach, which was clearly the case when PM was brought back.

by Caniac324 on Jun 22, 2010 9:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Did we "Grade" the Coach

I know I am getting older and I recall giving letter grades to many of the players….Did we have a poll to Grade the Coach or is that taboo?

by Mullett on Jun 22, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Anybody that is not a STH should not complain

If you a fan and you are not buying even a 12 game package then I believe you are contributing to the problem and shouldn’t have a right to complain about the situation. Has the cap been announced for this year? 55 million? I really don’t see the big deal, however, you have to make sound choices. Something I don’t envy for JR this year. However, spending a lot of money doesn’t guarentee championships. Look at us last year, — the Yankees and Redskins are also examples that come to mind. It’s more about chemistry and having a little bit of luck of everything coming together at the right time. I read a quote once that said “teams don’t win championships because they have great players, team’s win championships because players play great”

Is it October yet?

by hotchipsnsalsa on Jun 22, 2010 9:23 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree with a lot you say but not about the price of admission to fandom being season tickets, there are many viable and valuable ways to support this organization, season tickets are but one of many ways.

Sent from Blackberry

Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU

by Jamie Kellner on Jun 22, 2010 10:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Hotchips

your case is valid if you live within a 50 mile radius bit for caniacs who live clean accross the nation or in other nations around the world…isn’t that being a wee bit harsh.? Now i did buy a 12 seat deal last week and IF again IF my health holds up I’ll see 1 maybe 2 games if that, but on the days & games i can’t i have it set up so that a local youth charity there in Wake county can have the 2 seats…as i do live in Forsyth County here in NC and i also amg going next moth to the TWC in charlotte and see what deals they will have & what accomidations they have …and go from there…as i just bought and paid for my normal 4 season tickets seats at the spokane arena for my daughter 7 her family…so and again i’m not saying your wrong in the big picture…but …you could have been a wee bit gentler in making your point…have a good day

And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
Nino is The One !

by CaniacSteve on Jun 22, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with the second half of your post. Definitely disagree with the assertion that only STH’s are true fans. I only go to 4-5 games a season because that’s all I can afford, I’d love to be able to pick up a couple seats for the season, but that’s a lot of coin and I have bills to pay and mouths to feed (actually just my dog, but have you seen the price of dog food these days?), doesn’t make me (or anybody else) less of a fan if they can’t justify dropping a couple g’s on some seats in their current situation :)

Although I agree with your point in reference to people that are fans and can afford season tickets but refuse because they want a top notch product before they’ll ante-up.

by Kubota on Jun 22, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hotchips, I’m a huge fan of the Canes. I have been since they moved to NC. But I live on Outer Banks, and I work a rotating shift. As much as I would love to purchase a 12 game plan, or more, I simply can’t afford it. By the time I drive to a game, about 2.5 hours one way, I have ended up almost doubling the ticket cost, depending on what section I sit in. For me, a season ticket is simply a luxury I can’t afford. I’m lucky if I can make it to 4 or five games in a season. I go when I can, and support the team as much as I can. So how do I fit in as being part of the problem? I’m not taking your comment as a personal attack, so I don’t mean this to sound as an argument. I’m merely pointing out that some people simply can’t do it.

by CoastalCane on Jun 22, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, my point to all of the above was not that everyone had to buy tickets or that only STH are true fans. My point was actually that I know a lot of people who complain about money choices the team has and will make, but they do not attend games. My comment was that I didn’t think it was fair for those folks to complain, and complain is the key word, about the budget choices since they are not attending the games.

Is it October yet?

by hotchipsnsalsa on Jun 22, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, we’re fans. Complaining is what we do best.

by CoastalCane on Jun 22, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a B.S. in complaining from Hurricanes U.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe it. Did the magic eight ball assist you with getting that degree?

Is it October yet?

by hotchipsnsalsa on Jun 22, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Signs point to yes!”

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cheering is what fans should do best.

by Chuck Burns on Jun 24, 2010 11:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Still doesn’t sound like this is just one down year to me… Sounds awfully like staying $10-15 million under the Cap ceiling is now their long term strategy for turning a profit and they are selling this to a minority investor as their business plan.

We could always hope some rich billionaire will come buy the team. The way our team is set up now, we are going to have to buy-out contracts and trade away players just to make our budget, forget adding anybody (much less a top-4 D or top-6 Forward).

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions  

I’m fighting those same thoughts, JussiJuice. I am going to try to remain optimistic that PK will bring someone in with deep pockets, a passion for hockey, and who understands that profits from a sports franchise aren’t made year-to-year, they’re made in the appreciation of the asset.

by Gillimus on Jun 22, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

If I’ve learned anything about the org, it’s that they’re stubborn in a good way. PK loves being an owner and will be very picky about who he sells assets to.

by Caniac1026 on Jun 22, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

And even it were

do we be or become lesser fans because of the economy and how tight some apects of the canes budget is?? sure like everyone else i love,want and expect he canes to win 78 out of 82 games and Cam & Petey dawg to have mega shut outs too…but if it don’t happen are we goig to be and act like a bunch of spoiled and tired kids in a check out like when we can’t get that candy bar we want & want it now…if that is the case …then i rather not sit close to you at a game…not being ugly or mean…just honest…abd if either of you think this is bad try being a die hard cubs fan…they are still hoping 7 prayin…alot longer than we caniacs have…but i’m just a fan…what would i know ??

And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
Nino is The One !

by CaniacSteve on Jun 22, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand what is going on, but I am not thrilled. I just thought we were a few pieces away from seriously competing and know I see we will not be adding any of those pieces. As a fan (that purchases season tickets), its a tough pill to swallow. I want to see this team competitive and the reduced payroll doesn’t make it impossible, but does make it extremely more difficult.

Its also very tough when 2 players take up a third of your entire payroll. As everybody knows, I’m a big Staal supporter; but his contract (and Cam’s) are way out of wack for this teams budget. I can’t blame them for getting what they could, but JR’s negotiating skills definitely come into question.

Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!

by PackPride17 on Jun 22, 2010 11:52 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

+1

I feel the same way about Staal/Ward. Their salaries were NOT structured around a budget team. The fact that they are at their lowest actual salary now is even scarier. Leaves even less room for improvements or changes in the future when Staal’s salary gets up to $9+ million and Cam’s goes over $6.5+ million.

If we are seriously going to take this budget route long-term I wouldn’t be surprised if they were taking offers for Staal. I think most here agree he makes more than his production should allow, on a normal team that would be fine but on a cash-strapped team it can become a serious issue.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s an interesting point. I know a lot of people, including me, would not want to see Staal traded. But the Canes could get a lot in return for him. If JR put him on the market probably every other team in the league would be beating down his door to make a trade. I doubt it would happen unless Management simply got desperate to shed his salary, or someone offered a trade that can’t be refused. Staal has tremendous potential, but it seems he’s always lacked that complimentary player on his line who can help stretch the defense (a la a younger, healthier Cole). IF he were to be traded, I would hope it would be to a Western Conference team.

by CoastalCane on Jun 22, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bias here, but I would be greatly disappointed in trading Staal. His cap hit is more than it should be, but he is the most dangerous player in a Canes uniform. If the team does remain around the cap bottom, trading him becomes realistic. If that happened, I would no longer be a STH.

Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!

by PackPride17 on Jun 22, 2010 1:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Unfortunately, desperate times call for desperate measures. The question is, how desperate is the team right now?

by CoastalCane on Jun 22, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you ever see Staal or Ward moved, that’s a sure fire sign that the fire sale has begun and the team will be moving shortly. The effect that such a trade would have on ticket sales would be devastating. The only reason to make that move is to " poison the well " so to speak , so PK could go to the BOG in a year or so later and say " I have to move, I simply can’t get people to come to games here ".

it always burns within
the downward spiral never ends
when driven into sin
your salvation's found in a sinner's deed

by Douchebag St John on Jun 22, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that would be a sad, sad day.

by CoastalCane on Jun 22, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think it is that dire of a situation… Staal is a great player, but he is NOT anywhere near a $9 million dollar player. Guys mirroring his point totals and skill are making $5-7 million, Staal simply makes way too much for what he does. I didn’t mean we would trade him just to clear salary, I meant IF we could get a great deal with a great return that brought in less proven, but younger and cheaper talent then it might not be such a bad option.

For example: What if Anaheim offered Bobby Ryan, the #12 Overall Pick, and the #29 Overall pick in this years Draft for Staal. That is a deal I’d heavily consider on a team that can’t afford to pay $9 million to one player.

Or if Edmonton offered the #1 Overall and Dustin Penner for Staal. Another one I think you can’t just say outright “No way” too.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know too much about Penner, or how he would fit in with the Canes. But having the #1 and #7 overall picks would really be hard to walk away from. I know it won’t happen that way, but I can dream can’t I?

by CoastalCane on Jun 22, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Staal is worth WAY more than just the #1 Overall picks, especially to someone like the Oilers who are starving for any Star they can get their hands on.

Dustin Penner is probably the best player on the Oilers (although this is not saying much), big Power Forward Right Winger.

Personally I could live with Seguin + Sutter as our 1st and 2nd line Centers of the future. I’d bet Boston would fork over some nice picks (probably 32nd Overall and some) to swap picks and take Hall.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

For what it’s worth. This was tweeted a short time ago…

ice_chip
  
Jim Rutherford says movement in the first round, up or down, is “highly unlikely.” Said Rutherford: “We expect to stay at 7.”

by CoastalCane on Jun 22, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

After this article I doubt management would even be willing to pay for Seguin and his $3+ million a year salary. I’m positive the Canes will pick Nino… We need more character guys on the team to draw fans since we won’t be drawing them by winning.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seguin’s number would be more like $900k (+ 50% of that in bonuses), not $3+ million (at least not for the first several years.)

by darman1484 on Jun 22, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

With Bonuses these players make $3-3.75 million a year. True, their base salary is $900k, but look at Tavares or Duchene or Hedman’s Cap numbers…

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think Staal is worth the #1 pick. There’s so much potential in that guy, and trading that for a proven point per game but not elite scorer is too much.

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матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nevermind, tough to call. Staal’s contract length makes it close to fair.

Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
Follow me on Twitter!

by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hall is a scorer, Staal is a franchise center. I honestly think the deal comes down to which type of player is preferred by the GM.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hope springs eternal

I’d much rather have Staal than a possibly-outstanding player (or two) from the draft. Bird in the hand worth two in the bush. There should be a name for this: draft fever?

by LewPuls1 on Jun 22, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Da man"

Staal and Ward were given huge contracts because they’d be gone to free agency otherwise. As those two go, the team goes. The Canes won’t win a cup without them or people like them, and how seldom do we have a chance (via the draft) to get “da man”? So in my view the contracts are worth it.

by LewPuls1 on Jun 22, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

No doubt Staal is huge for our team and a top-20 talent in the NHL. Unfortunately for us he is paid the same as Crosby or Ovechkin but plays like a Getzlaf or Richards. If he were making $6-7 million a year, he would be perfect.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I obviously know that Crosby is a better player than Staal, but look at the numbers. Over the last 5 years, Staal has scored more goals than Crosby in 3 of the 5. The total number of goals scored between the two is 183 to 182. The big difference is the assists and Crosby has the benefit of playing with another elite player (Staal does not). Crosby averages about 22 more points a year than Staal. And of those points, Crosby averages 42 Power Play points a season compared to Staal’s 29. Again, I’m not saying Staal is equal to Crosby, but Crosby’s “Robin” of Malkin is a vast improvement over Staal’s “Robin” of Whitney.

Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!

by PackPride17 on Jun 22, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed. Never seen the numbers laid out like that. That’s pretty impressive.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have to wonder how many of those extra 22 points per year are second assists, I’m saying Staal doesn’t get them but when you’ve got a pp like Pittsburgh’s you tend to get more.

by Go_Shelf on Jun 22, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Basically what I’m trying to say is don’t throw Staal under the bus so quickly. I know he still NEEDS to improve, but point production also depends on who he playing with. Many people expect him to produce more for his salary, but the other players similar to him have more talent at their disposal.

Over the past couple of seasons, look at who Staal has had as 5-on-5 & PP linemates as compared to other top players. Whitney; a good player, but I argue he is a 2nd line winger. Cole; a player past his “best if used by” date. A player that was reacquired for a broken down (injured) Justin Williams. Ruutu; a good player, but he doesn’t necessarily click with Staal. Samsonov; a player no one wanted and is currently a 4th liner. Jussi; a good player that was pulled out of the trash. He was acquired for a road cone and a human punching bag. While these are good players, they are not going to make Staal that much more dangerous.

Crosby gets PP and some 5-on-5 with Malkin. Thornton plays with Heatley and Marleau. Getzlaf has Ryan and Perry. Backstrom is helped by Ovie and Semin. Most teams try to build around their top player with another elite player. The Canes (because of money) just can’t afford to do so. This IMO is the only way to make the Canes a consistent top team in the NHL. Find a “Robin” to Staal’s “Batman” and don’t be so quick to say Staal is not worth his contract.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 22, 2010 6:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Wait, wait! I forgot the elite player Staal finished the season with last year – Chad LaRose.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 22, 2010 6:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Who was Staal with in 2005-2006?

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 5:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cole and Stillman who were both well served by missing the previous season to the lockout. Those guys were fresher than they ever were in their careers and Cole had yet to have his neck broken. Add to it that Brind’Amour also had one of the best years of his career playing alongside Williams. Brindy was helped out by not playing the year before and Williams was not yet the walking operation game.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

CL, that is the thing most people don’t take into account. Having a very good 2nd line helps the 1st line. The opposing defenses have to worry about more than just shutting down Staal.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 23, 2010 11:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Totally. That’s one of the reasons I love the idea of Seguin. A second center that can make wingers around him better forces the defense to do all kinds of terrible things and then allows Brandon Sutter to work on his defense and become Jordan Staal.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1
I would give up a lot to get Seguin. At least it would provide some interest for this upcoming season.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 23, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about our #7 and McBain or our #7, Tlusty, and Carson.

by Go_Shelf on Jun 23, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wouldn’t want to give up McBain. Pretty much anything else I’m okay with.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

The unfortunate reality is the Canes seriously couldn’t afford to pay him even if they did want to move up and take him.

We will stick at 7, take Niederreiter, and the mediocrity will continue. At least maybe his cool name that everyone likes saying so much and bubbling personality can draw some casual fans. The biggest benefit to the Canes will be they won’t have to pay him for another year or two. Anyone who thinks he is ready for the NHL needs to look at his IIHF World Cup performance.

by JussiJuice on Jun 23, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably right, best player avail according to Canes: Connolly, Nino, then Johansen.

by Go_Shelf on Jun 23, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think they would even take Nino above Connolly if he was available… For no other reason than to disappoint me more.

by JussiJuice on Jun 23, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

The cap hit difference between #2 and #7 is probably at most $1M and to get paid that cap hit amount the player would have to reach certain goals set forth by the team and his agent. Cost regarding draft picks SHOULDN’T be a big deal at all.

I do think that the Canes will select Nino. He’s a good player and probably the safest pick at #7. And we all know how likely the Canes are going out on a limb.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 23, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nino will be lucky to be as good as Boychuk or Tlusty, certainly nothing special. He wasn’t even top-30 in points in the whole WHL on a Playoff team. I see little difference between him and the forwards taken up into the 20-25th pick. At that point I’d rather just trade up and take 2 later guys, say McIlrath and Sheahan.

by JussiJuice on Jun 23, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nino?

I’m a little puzzled at the interest in him, over two or three guys i like better. Johansen has advanced more than anybody (in ranking) this year. Granlund was ranked high last year, and is top 5 now. Skinner had 70 goals this yr (20 in the playoffs). They’re all centers too!!!

by randycane on Jun 23, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

One thing that has really brought me around to Nino is his age. The guy is almost a full year younger than the rest of the guys in the draft. I’ve always liked his work ethic, but to do what he does at his age is really impressive.

I like Johansen and Granlund. Not so much Skinner. Seems to me like a junior wonder that won’t pan out. I don’t know why I think that, but every time I see clips of him he I just walk away thinking that it won’t translate to the NHL.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Granlund is kinda small. That’s the biggest complaint there. We can’t all be the Canadiens.

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 23, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not as worried about Granlund’s size as he’ll follow up Staal, and possibly Sutter. It’s certainly not ideal, but the guy Granlund is compared to most, Saku Koivu, did pretty well for himself at the same size.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe Canes management had a great interview with Granlund, already worked out a deal for him coming to the NHL, and are planning on taking him instead.

Could be the same case with Vladamir Tarasenko.

by JussiJuice on Jun 23, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d looked at the numbers before (no link though) and I’m pretty sure Crosby has a crazy high assist% of primary assists, something like 60%.

And Staal’s linemates are probably better than Crosby’s linemates. Malkin only plays with Crosby in extra attacker situations and on the PP, and PIT’s PP runs as Gonchar runs.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

First off, I’m not saying Staal is better than Crosby. And saying Staal’s normal linemates are better than Crosby’s is arguable at best. If you watched Pittsburgh at all, you would see that Malkin and Crosby play significant time together on the PP and actually do lineup together somewhat often in 5-on-5 situations.

Oh yeah, a couple years ago Pittsbugh went out at the trade deadline and got Hossa to play with Crosby; the Canes got Cole to play with Staal. Not exactly the same talent level, is it?

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by PackPride17 on Jun 23, 2010 6:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

These charts may be of interest to you

Crosby’s linemates 2009-2010 (though Malkin played point on the PP too; D doesn’t show up)
Staal’s linemates 2009-2010

QTeam ratings
Crosby: -0.084
Staal: 0.108

If you watched Pittsburgh at all

Insinuating that I didn’t watch Pittsburgh is weak sauce, dude/dudette.

Oh yeah, a couple years ago Pittsbugh went out at the trade deadline and got Hossa to play with Crosby; the Canes got Cole to play with Staal. Not exactly the same talent level, is it?

…what does that have to do with anything??? Hossa doesn’t play on Crosby’s wing anymore.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 7:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

It meant that the Pittsburgh organization went out an acquired a top notch winger to play with Crosby. A year later when the Canes went out to acquire a winger at the deadline to play with Staal, they chose Cole.

Pittsburgh goes out and gets a top 25 player to HELP out their star. Carolina goes out and picks up a guy Edmonton wishes they never acquired in the first place. Everybody wants Staal to score 100 points a year, but the organization doesn’t surround him with the same caliber of players that other organizations do with their stars. Look at other top players and see who they are lined up with. Even if Crosby and Malkin don’t play together all the time, having them on different lines is a benefit to both. The opposing teams have to split time for their top D pair between to two lines. Neither of those things are the case in Carolina.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 23, 2010 8:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

That was still for like 20 regular season games and 20 playoff games. Not much. The core of a team is different. Malkin is core.

I commented on another thread that the “core” of the Canes being tossed around right now is pretty big. Scoring depth is nice and all, but you need superstar talent as well. Staal is there, Ward will be clutch in the playoffs, but other than that it’s good not great players. I get the feeling that Rutherford really needs to sit down and choose if he wants Carolina to be perennially competitive in the near future.

This is Staal’s linemate from his 100 pt season in Cole, correct? I seem to recall thinking that deal a steal for Carolina.

Carolina doesn’t seem to really have the assets in the first place to bring in such a player, monetarily or with regards to personnel. “You have to give some to get some.” With all those draft picks maybe it’s in the best interests of the franchise’s on-ice success just to wait.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you honestly comparing Cole pre neck break to Cole post neck break?

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Forgot about that, sorry.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s cool. It’s amazing how something like that can be forgotten.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, overlooked. I was kind of in the zone of NJD bringing back all the old guys, and Cole seemed to just go along with that.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha! Love it.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I’m trying to say is that others teams (like Pittsburgh) see that you need more than 1 star player to consistently succeed. Crosby has Malkin, has JStaal, and a few years ago brought in Hossa (even if for just 20 games). HSedin has DSedin, Burrows, and Kessler. EStaal has had what; Whitney, Cole, Ruutu, Jussi? Those are nice players, but their not going to be confused with star players. I guess we’re somewhat agreeing with the principle I was trying to say from the start; we need help and the organization is scaling back rather than trying to fill that hole.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 23, 2010 10:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Well, with Whitney presumably leaving, who will be the next “Robin”? Of the players on the current roster, I’d have to say Jussi is the best one to fill that role. But is he enough to help spread the D and open up the ice a little more? Some of the Rats/Checkers will be given a shot, but it remains to be seen as to who that will be. And are any of them ready for the first line?

by CoastalCane on Jun 22, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

who will be the next "Robin"?

It is a contract year for Erik Cole. Wondering if he might be a pleasant surprise. We could use one, certainly.

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 22, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Samsonov is the one I think most likely to pick up his game in his contract year. I like Cole and he’s done a lot for this organization, but that broken neck took a lot out of him.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'M NOT HAPPY-but

I’m willing to see how this plays out. My biggest problems with this new approach are two-fold: the timing of this announcement, after renewal of Season Tickets, and the amount of the reduction in BUDGET is bound to hurt the RESULTS on the ice, ie NO RAY, NO FREE AGENCY ACQUISITIONS (D-MAN) = WEAKER TEAM!!! I’ll give JR/ PK one season to play this CHEAPO GAME, but if next year they don’t modify the BUDGET – then I definitely WILL!!

by randycane on Jun 22, 2010 12:13 PM EDT reply actions  

You can’t starve a pig to profitability.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting"..........holy cow.......what a ride!"

by Spanky31 on Jun 22, 2010 12:49 PM EDT reply actions  

I think the part where he was talking about the number of exhibition games was indicative of how unsure JR is of the roster come this fall. He prefers to play 4 games, but only if his starters play in all 4. They chose to play 6 this year, indicating that he isn’t sure who is/will be a regular, those games are used to find out who will be.

http://www.prosportsblogging.com

by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 22, 2010 1:38 PM EDT reply actions  

In case you didn't watch the whole 17 minutes...

JR is talking about our best players being our best players and he lists off Staal, Ward, Ruutu, Gleason, Sutter, and Pitkanen.

Does that sound like a core to you?

http://www.prosportsblogging.com

by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 22, 2010 1:41 PM EDT reply actions  

LTD and were talking about that in the fanshot last night. Those are the Untouchables.

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 22, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

LTD and I were

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 22, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jussi isn’t on that list. What do you think of that?

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Personally I would remove Ruutu and add Jussi. I like Ruutu, but he gets paid way too much for sitting out 20-30 games a year with injury. He would be the first one I would trade if it became necessary.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

As much as I like Ruutu, I agree completely

by CoastalCane on Jun 22, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s the core per Rutherford of a few days ago and he is the one who gets to make the decisions (as opposed to all of us knuckleheads who are convinced we could do his job. Well, maybe that’s just me).

It makes me wonder if Jussi is in play for trades.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jussi’s value may never be higher.

it always burns within
the downward spiral never ends
when driven into sin
your salvation's found in a sinner's deed

by Douchebag St John on Jun 22, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this knucklehead could do a better job! :)

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by PackPride17 on Jun 22, 2010 7:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Want to be co-knockleheads, er, I mean co-GMs? It could be like MLSE, but with fewer knuckleheads and no chuckleheads.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure co-knuckleheads sounds good!

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by PackPride17 on Jun 23, 2010 8:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Ditto.

http://www.prosportsblogging.com

by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 22, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we can all agree that if the team wins, everyone wins…. the fans, mgmt, owner, players, etc.. I will give PK and JR the benefit of the doubt (which I rarely do) that if we are in a position to go far, they will spend. They have in the past (spent on talent) and nothing brings in more money than a winning hockey team.

The economy is in rough shape, everyone is cutting back somewhere, and it is not resonable to think the Canes can spend to the cap when the money is tight, they are looking for a financial partner and there is no direct correlation between spending and winning.

I love this team, I am not happy with Mo, I can’t stand Tripp, etc…. and like everyone else I have my gripes about how they do things at times but,…………. I love this team, I want them here for the long term, I continue to buy my season tickets ( and swear this is my last year but it never is…) and I want this to be one of the great hockey markets out there. We gripe because we love this team and we care but we will never all agree on everything.

I am hopeful our youth movement is successful and I will stand by our team (and complain about it all the way). Hey we’re all Caniacs!!!

by Canes Pucknut on Jun 22, 2010 2:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Well Said

I agree with your sentiments Pucknut!
I’m sending in the checks and I’ll be cheering on the team. I may cheer a bit louder this year since there is nothing worse for young players than to have their own fans get on them.

But I do question some of this business logic. JR is saying that by slashing payroll they can make money even if they don’t make the playoffs. So in essence it is like a business saying we will put out a mediocre product but hang with us…. we’ll make a profit and down the line we will provide you with a better product. Not sure in how many situations that works.

My thought is that winning sells tickets. And making the playoffs sells a lot of full houses for those games. In most successful businesses you have to measure the risks and make some up front investments if you hope to have a positive return. I’m all for cutting our losses on low return cash intensive investments like Rod and Samsonov and replacing with young, cheaper talent. I also get taking a risk on some young guys in slots where they normally might have had to wait another year of grooming. But this team also has major vulnerabilities by not adding another shut down D in the mold of Gleason who can play with our rather offensive oriented other D. And we need at least one additional forward up front with some size ( and skill) that can counter our tendency to get pushed around. So if we signed those, that puts us more at the lower middle of the CAP. So assume this makes us that much more competitive and sells just another 1,000 seats per game and gets us to at least the 1st round of the playoffs. I have that extra return, factoring in average seat prices, concessions, parking and 2 full house playoff games totalling around $4million. And you would have built considerable momentum going into the followoing year thereby saving considerbale marketing dollars.

 I also have a hard time believing that any prospective investor isn’t going to do thorough due diligence before making a very large investment and both understand that strategy and see through the other where you strip the cupboard to turn a one year profit.

by sittler27 on Jun 22, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats a great follow up reply. I totally agree with you.

I have sometimes felt that the Canes have followed the belief that they will spend money when people come. But I think it is their job to give us a good product first and then people will show up. Like many on this board, I am a diehard fan, and support them during good and bad times. I just tend to be more jaded when the team is playing like dirt.

More people will become fans, and then loyal fans, and ultimately diehard fans. This will bring more season ticket holders which is truly the lifeblood of the franchise. When you have season ticket holders, you know what revenues will be from game to game, regardless of a 14 game losing streak or anything else bad that can and does happen. Winning brings in the casual fan. They are always welcome (unless they’re Sabres fans) but they are also visibly absent when the team is not winning.

  

by Canes Pucknut on Jun 22, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Horton to Boston

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=325375

Nathan Horton + Gregory Campbell to Boston for Dennis Wideman and the #15 Overall Pick

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 2:55 PM EDT reply actions  

I seriously doubt Boston trades away from #2 after doing that… Sucks for us.

They get rid of a big contract and a player they hated anyway (Wideman) and got Horton + Gregory Campbell. Horton and Wideman’s salaries cancel, although Campbell is a RFA and will likely be due $1.5 million or so. Boston gains salary in the deal and loses a top-4 D. I’d be shocked if Thomas wasn’t dealt in the near future to clear salary space.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although this likely opens up the Panthers to be more willing to trade the #3 Overall. I highly doubt they are done with their quick-fixes now.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m guessing Tallon’s desire is to rebuild via the draft. Florida right now has #3, #15, #33, #36 and #50. I’m guessing if they do trade #3 it will only be for a young player and a pick. LA could maybe pry the # 3 by offering up Tuebert and #19, although the Panthers may only be willing to move it for Hickey.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I seriously doubt Edmonton moves the number 1 for anyone outside a proven Star player. That being said, with Staal’s salary eating up near 20% of our whole budget I wouldn’t mind trying to make some kind of deal if the return was right.

Eric Staal
for
number 1 Overall + number 31 Overall + Penner or Cogliano

We trade with Boston (acquiring the number 32 Overall Pick) to the number 2 Overall pick, take Seguin. Trade up using our number 7 Overall to number 3-5 Overall and take Fowler, Gudbranson, or Gormley. Then collect 3 or 4 2nd round picks on top of that. Now THAT is what I would call a rebuilding year.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

That seems like an awful lot. Probably asking for too much.

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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, nevermind. The sheer length of Staal’s contract slipped my mind.

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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Star player wants to go to Edmonton, I think they would give up almost anything to acquire a player like Eric Staal.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking about that myself, but I doubt Edmonton moves out of the top 2.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

It may actually mean Boston is more willing to move down, but only a few spaces to pick up one of the top three blue liners.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because of the their salary cap sit. will they have room for Seguin? 3.8 ish

by Go_Shelf on Jun 22, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

They don’t have to necessarily sign him, I don’t think. Pretty sure you retain rights from CHL players for two years. If they do I’m sure someone will want Bergeron or someone

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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s not going back to the CHL.

by Go_Shelf on Jun 22, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

It wouldn’t be unheard of… If Boston couldn’t afford to pay him next year they very well could take this route. Bobby Ryan is a good example of a #2 Overall pick that went this route.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, for junior eligible players coming from Canadian leagues it’s either NHL or back to juniors (no AHL).

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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right… I meant he could very well be going back to Plymouth.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

They could force him to, right? JVR stayed in college, I think Ryan stayed in juniors too. Seguin is a different type, but he need not be in the NHL, and AHL is not a possibility at the moment I think.

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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

He can’t go to the AHL, but what if he doesn’t sign, can he back into the draft next year?

by Go_Shelf on Jun 22, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m fairly certain you retain rights for North American players for two years, Euros for four. Something like that.

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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right… Like Jared Staal this year (He was about to go back into the Draft before we traded for him and signed him). Boston would retain his rights for a few years.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

And neither were ready for the NHL, by all accounts Seguin’s ready.

by Go_Shelf on Jun 22, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

After they dump Tim Thomas on some team (almost a certainty) they will have plenty of room for Seguin.

by JussiJuice on Jun 22, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

The have 4.9 left with 16 players on board with 3 or 4 good RFAs left to sign we’re not talking about a lot of money left over.

by Go_Shelf on Jun 22, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who is gonna take Thomas and his monster contract? And he has the NTC. They may need to put him waivers so they lose some salary and make it affordable. Can that even happen? How old is he?

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 22, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed and with adding Horton (a top 3 forward) I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that they may move down in the draft and swap that #2. I think they really wanted Hall and couldn’t get him (Horton’s a winger).

by Go_Shelf on Jun 22, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, Thomas didn’t exactly have horrid numbers this year…some GM would be dumb enough to take it.

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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

With all the Veteran goalie UFA’s out there? Anything’s possible, just hard to see.

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 22, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The guy is only a year removed from the Vezina and he had injury issues last year. Now, I don’t think he’s about to regain his Vezina form, but it only takes 1 of 29 other GMs to make a deal happen

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 22, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still can’t decide what this means for Boston’s #2 pick, some feel Horton’s a bargaining chip for Boston to get Edmonton’s #1 pick and get Hall which is what they want.

by Go_Shelf on Jun 22, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Horton plays in Boston and has his best statistical year of his career. Playing with guys like Savard, Bergeron, and Krejci will help him fulfill some of that that made him the #3 overall pick.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 22, 2010 9:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The other rumor is with Seguin coming in, Savard’s out to Toronto for Kaberle

by Go_Shelf on Jun 23, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt it—you don’t just sign a guy to a long deal and trade him. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of their centers go, but they could just keep ‘em all. Junior players and younger centers generally need time to adapt to NHL center (get stronger, get better on faceoffs, work harder, etc) and the management in Boston could deem it best Seguin starts on wing and works his way to center. That’s what I expect.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m just saying it’s one of the 3 or 4 possibilities that are being discussed right now. I think Boston should re-sign their RFA dmen rather than go after Kaberle. I still don’t know what they do with Seguin, he has nothing to gain by going back to junior and I don’t know where he fits into their roster – 2nd line wing or 3rd line center. They have a team that can win now and they’ll address their needs accordingly. They’re in a good position because they don’t have to sacrifice the future to win now.

by Go_Shelf on Jun 23, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Time to say goodbye.

Man i hate to say it but it is time to say goodbye to Samansov and Brindy #17 due to high contract status, declining play, and lastly the Hurricanes looking to go in a youth movement and newer ownership group.

Sucks but it is time w/ have younger faster players w/ more upside that need new deals and really Brindy and Samansov have seen such declining roles I am truly suprised that the moves haven’t happened already.

Go Canes.

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jun 22, 2010 7:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Lets just hope they don’t pull a Carolina Panthers sorry for NFL mention and completely dump salary for the sake of it.

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jun 22, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

This will surely result in a terrible year; spending 25% less than the competition is a recipe for disaster. If this continues it is highly unlikely that we will have a playoff caliber team for many years – barring some 8th seed first round out. If they don’t want to skate a competitive team, then I hope they sell to someone that does.

by PittsburghCaniac on Jun 22, 2010 7:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Here's a thought:

Or we can look forward to really top-shelf draft picks in 2011, 12, 13 and contend for the cup in 2015, 16, 17. Tanking your team as part of the road to success in the post-cap world.

It's gonna be a long summer.

by Carolyn Christians on Jun 22, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but we won’t be able to afford all of our (current) kids that we will develop for other teams. When their contracts are due, the ones that turn out to be good will go elsewhere for more money and the chance to win a Cup.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 22, 2010 11:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I understand your point, but eventually the top-shelf draft picks will require top-shelf salaries; in otherwords, tanking a team can help, but only if you are willing to pay for the talent after you draft them – see Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, J. Staal – if the pens weren’t willing to pay top dollar after the entry level contract, most of them wouldnt be there. I am not trying to freak out here, but this team is starting to sound like the Pittsburgh Pirates up here – “hey, screw the cap, long as we sell some tickets and make just enough money to get by…..who cares if we make the playoffs, we have great bobbleheads!”

I would never give up on this team, but if this is more than just a short term ownership problem, then they have obviously given up on their fans. I understand that it is a business, but the give and take should consist of a great product supported by paying supporters; they make money, we enjoy, if it solely about the prior, expect the Canes to leave Raleigh. Really, its their choice – if they don’t want to provide a decent product, they will eventually lose.

by PittsburghCaniac on Jun 22, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said a similar thing about this being the first step toward the Canes moving and a few people told me I’m over-reacting. I don’t want to see that happen, but how can this type of thing endure the franchise to the fans? Many people feel screwed like me. I thought we were a couple moves away from true contenders, but the organization is taking steps backwards. Without spending, winning becomes more difficult; without winning, attendance drops; without attendance, revenue decreases. Its the downward process of a troubled sports franchise.

I really feel bad for the players like Staal, Gleason, Ward, Jussi, Ruutu, and Joni that have experienced some NHL success. This makes achieving their goal of the Stanley Cup even more difficult to obtain.

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by PackPride17 on Jun 22, 2010 11:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don’t know that we’re there yet. DSBJ and I have been having this conversation. My hope is that a new investor has already been identified and that the salary level is this investors idea. The goal is to figure out what can be done at this level to know what the revenue floor is in the market. The consultants are on board not to help the sale but to make sure the books aren’t cooked. I also think this investor wants the whole team. Have you noticed what started as selling ten% quickly became up to 49% and recently the term “the whole team” has been mentioned in passing when the sale is discussed by JR or PK?

I have no inside information, and I have no logical reason to believe any of the above. It’s the best case scenario I can think of for the current scenario.

The only way the team is going to move is if the ownership does indeed poison the well. The team gets a good cut of all revenue and has a reasonable lease. The parent company also gets a cut of the arena management, something that the team likely won’t get in another venue. As far as small market franchises go, the Canes have one of, if not the, best lease structure. They can’t claim, like the Coyotoes, that the local City is taking too big a chunk of the revenue. The only way to show the market is not viable is to drive away any and all fans.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes – unfortunately, I agree with you 100%. I wish I could say otherwise, but a team sporting the bare minimum in salary cannot be competitve on a season by season basis. PK seems to only care about profit at this point, nothing more, nothing less. If he cared about his team he wouldnt shoot for the bare cap minimum. I think this team is on its way out of Raleigh. I also no longer think it is a coincidence that they are playing overseas for the first few games and are receiving the NHL allstar game…I think there is more going on than we know about.

by PittsburghCaniac on Jun 23, 2010 12:53 AM EDT reply actions  

I meant to post this under PackPride17

by PittsburghCaniac on Jun 23, 2010 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

People, people…please just calm down. The Canes have some of the best NHL prospects in the league and they’ve shown that they have great potential after their play with the big club last year. I remember when the Penguins were so strapped for cash that they filed for chapter 11 in ‘98 and that franchise nearly collapsed as a result. That was a much worse position than the Canes are in now, but Pittsburgh found a way to pull out of it with the help of Lemieux buying into the ownership. We’ll create our own magic to turn things around.

Also, Carolina was able to build itself into Cup champions after the club’s tough start in Raleigh (or should I say Greensboro) dating back to ‘97. The team’s position now is nothing like what it faced in ‘97 nor what the Penguins faced in ’98. Many doubted the team’s potential back then just like some are doing right now. Carolina defied expectations in the beginning and they’ll do it again. Guaranteed.

So, in the meantime, everyone sit back, chill out, crack open a beer or two and get ready for the draft. The Canes will have a good weekend…

by DesertCaniac on Jun 23, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hockey’s Future has CAR as having the 17th best prospect pool, with Boychuk 15th league-wide and the only Canes prospect ranked in the top-50, so I’m not sure where you got

The Canes have some of the best NHL prospects in the league

from.

With so many picks in the draft though (10? 11?) maybe it’s just best to run with them. Generally 1st and 2nd rounders are pretty successful and thereafter it’s very hit or miss (usually miss). This year’s draft is also supposed to be pretty deep (though that’s what they said about 2008 and 2009 too, and until recently this year was supposed to be weak).

Being strapped for cash and rebuilding is not really related to moving. Some places will make a profit regardless of on ice product (Original Six, Philly, etc). For Carolina I think the trick is just to have a winning team, a contender, for say 7-10 years so young people jump on the bandwagon and become fans.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 5:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course, if you want lots of top-6 forward and top-4 D prospects (I’m guessing no goalie prospects are needed for the moment) then trading up is good.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hurricanes Prospects

   With all due respect to Cory and his relationship with Hockeys Future, I disagreed with the rankings. I think the Hurricanes have some excellent young prospects. An example of one of my disagreements is Osala. Cory listed Osala down among Pistilli as a prospect. I disagree and think Osala has shown he has tremendous potential.

by abramsdoug on Jun 23, 2010 7:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m no expert either, so fair enough, but I bet THN has similar listings.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Even you, AD, have to admit that you view the world, and the team, through rose-colored glasses.

Every team loves their prospects, but I’d agree that ours are about on par with most teams, so therefore middle-of-the-pack seems about right.

by Elsker on Jun 23, 2010 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Doug, how much do you know about other teams prospects? Plus, you yourself have said you’re optimistic, sometimes overly so. Isn’t it possible you’re being overly optimistic about the Canes young players?

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

D'oh!

Should of read Elsker’s post. Stupid not scrolling all the way down.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Another big error..

I couldn’t believe it but both Mcbain and Carson were absent from their top 50. Anybody else think that makes sense when several of the top 50 haven’t played more than 1or two games in NHL (if any)???

by randycane on Jun 23, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Part of the ranking has to do with player upside. I wouldn’t rate Carson as a top 50 prospect. He’s fine, but he doesn’t have any ability to be a first pair guy in the NHL.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 23, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree with C-Leaguer. They’re assessing talent and upside, not experience.

by Elsker on Jun 23, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Otherwise Pietrangelo wouldn’t be #1…he hasn’t been good in limited NHL time with STL.

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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok

Carson maybe not, BUT MCBAIN??

by randycane on Jun 23, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Watching Each Others Back

I am in total agreement. The way of life here is that we watch each others back. Whether in business, our kids, schools, or after storms. I think the hockey community will come together to support the Canes; and the naysayers will continue to dark lines in every silver cloud.

Sent from my Iphone

by abramsdoug on Jun 24, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Doug, it’s fine for the hockey community to watch one anothers back, but doesn’t the team need to look out for that hockey community? What many people are trying to say here, and I think there is some merit to it, is that with PK slashing payroll he is not looking out for the backs of the fans. He’s not participating in the social contract.

Personally, I don’t begrudge them too much for this season. They were going to be young this year anyway. And young means low payroll. I think it’s going a bit too young and a bit too cheap, but it’s at the margins as far as I’m concerned for this season. The problem comes with the next couple of seasons. If the payroll stays low and if that means the Canes turn in to a farm team for the rest of the league then I think that means that PK isn’t looking out for the fans. I have no problem looking out for folks, but when someone makes it perfectly clear that they aren’t looking out for your it’s foolish to continue to look out for them.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 24, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Two Way Street of Looking Out for Each Other

   It makes complete sense to me that there is a two way street with respect to the way our community looks out for each other. It would be unfair for any owner to decide to become a glorified AHL team playing in the NHL and to be a bottom feeder team consistently.

  I strongly disagree with anybody asserting that is how Peter Karmanos is built. He may lack a certain degree of diplomacy in his approach; but he is first and foremost a person who wants to build a winning team. I cannot imagine that crippling the Hurricanes team would be either his nature or a prudent business decision. Only a very foolish owner would expect to have a successful NHL franchise in Raleigh or anywhere else if the team were to become the floor mat of the NHL.

    The quickest path out of low budgets is to win and to bring fans into the RBC. I happen to think having young, talented, fast players is the way to start engaging the fan base. I could easily imagine the Hurricanes young team capturing the hearts and minds of even the most casual hockey fan. As far as I am concerned, it would be impossible for me to believe that Peter Karmanos would starve his teams of talent and expect anything good to come of that approach.

by abramsdoug on Jun 24, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t our prospects win the Traverse City Prospects Tourney in 2009? That has to count for something.
 
I try to say something positive about this team some people tear it apart and insist upon being negative…lighten up people.

by DesertCaniac on Jun 23, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Yea they did win, and now a lot of those players are coming up to the big team. Might take em a while to adjust to the size and speed of NHL but since most of them have already experienced it for a few games it shouldnt take too long. A lot of people are getting a bit melo-dramatic…

by webbo26 on Jun 24, 2010 5:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Even young teams, like the Blackhawks, need some veterans. Where are the Hawks without a John Madden. Or Brent Sopel? Call Sopel a goat during the season, I won’t deny that, but the man had a phenomenal cup run.

Tranverse is important, but it’s only one slice of the pie.

I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.

by C-Leaguer on Jun 24, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rutherford on NHL Live

JR is listed as one of the guests today on NHL Live. He’s the last guest listed, so probably in the last half-hour, but that’s just a guess.

NHL Network or online at NHL.com from 12-2.

by Elsker on Jun 23, 2010 11:59 AM EDT reply actions  

No new information gleaned from that interview…at least by me.

by Elsker on Jun 23, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

A Unique Position

We are at a confluence of events:

  • the worst economy in years
  • PK has no partner backing up the minority cost anymore
  • we stunk it up last season

All of these things hit the bottom line in a huge way.

We are in a unique position where our development in the AHL is yielding multiple young players who are ready, which we can bring in to be a budget team this year and spend at the floor without completely compromising performance.

I for one truly believe that they plan for this to be a 1-time kind of thing, it makes sense given all the inputs. If we can play well enough to be profitable (and between JR’s knack for getting budget players and our AHL pipeline, I think that’s doable), PK should (fingers crossed) get the investment help he’s hoping for. I really don’t think they’re planning for a death spiral of years of underperformance, only a reset after a destructive season on the books.

That isn’t to say it won’t happen, last year was certainly not in the plan either; if things go wrong, it could take longer to dig out of the hole (and JR’s comments make it clear they’re aware it’s still a possibility), but you’ve gotta work with what you have.

If we play our cards right, we can still be a competitive team while temporarily spending at the floor.

Like everyone else, of course I’m apprehensive, but I’m certain this is better than the alternatives, like aggressively looking into moving the team somewhere with a bigger revenue base.

What I want more than anything is to watch and enjoy hockey, and as long as the team is doing what it needs to to try to be competitive and improve the young players, I’m still bullish on the future.

by Raccoon Fink on Jun 24, 2010 1:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Karmonos update

From a Canes Now post this afternoon, comes an encouraging update from PK on the ownership issue:

“We have a lot of interest from a lot of people around the Raleigh area”

Also, this tidbit was added to the “so what do we know?” pile:

Karmanos, who has owned the franchise since 1994 and moved it to Raleigh in 1997, again insisted he was not interested in selling 100 percent of the team.

“I never said I was selling the whole team,” he said. "I said what I’m trying to do is take care of my partner’s estate. He owned 49 percent of the team.

by Elsker on Jun 24, 2010 5:18 PM EDT reply actions  

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Bryan Allen 5 D 8/21/1980 226 6-5
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Tim Brent 37 C 3/10/1984 188 6-0
Patrick Dwyer 39 RW 6/22/1983 175 5-11
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Anthony Stewart 13 C 1/5/1985 230 6-3
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