RFA Update - Brett Carson and Alexandre Picard Will Not Be Qualified
by Bob Wage on Jun 28, 2010 5:47 PM EDT
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PrintI have just been notified that the Carolina Hurricanes will not extend qualifying offers to defensemen Alexandre Picard and Brett Carson. There was a change of heart at the Canes front office and all other RFA's will be qualified except for those two.
Both players have been tendered one-way contract offers, but they have not been accepted as of yet.
A Hurricanes rep explained to me that both players were arbitration eligible and the organization decided not to risk having to accept the result of an arbitration award, which would have been binding to the team if the Canes had qualified them, (within parameters.) In Picard's case, the amount could have been over $1 million. (updated)
If the contract offers are not accepted, then as of Thursday, July 1, they both become unrestricted free agents and can negotiate with any team.
Picard did not see much action for the Hurricanes. He was included in the Matt Cullen deal to Ottawa in which the Canes also obtained a second round draft pick.
Carson was originally drafted by the Canes in 2004 and had turned into a solid defender during the course of last season.
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I really hope Carson accepts. Any Idea how much they were offered?
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by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 28, 2010 5:49 PM EDT reply actions
nope, they did not tell me the dollar amounts of the contract offers.
Editing Manager of CanesCountry.com
Figured. Thanks Bob.
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by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 28, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Money, money, money, monnnneeey...
Wow! Unexpected news.
Actually, I’m glad to hear that perhaps Picard will be moving onward, and if we had known he had arbitration rights, this would have been more predictable.
Did not realize that Carson also had arbitration rights. Guess he’ll test the market and make a decision soon whether to accept the low-ball one-way offer from us or not.
This does free up some options. But, why do I already feel that JR will disappoint?
It’s always tough when an org has to make cash flow decisions instead of business decisions…something I’ve worked very hard to maintain throughout this economic event for my own business.
The Canes post on this said that acquiring Sanguinetti changed their thinking.
Rutherford said that this past weekend’s acquisition of Bobby Sanguinetti from the New York Rangers made his decision easier, as he believes the new addition can compete for a job on the Hurricanes right away. Even without Carson and Picard, the Hurricanes would still be able to field a defense featuring Tim Gleason, Joni Pitkanen, Jamie McBain and Jay Harrison, with Sanguinetti and the expected re-signing of Anton Babchuk rounding out the top six. Casey Borer and Bryan Rodney could then provide depth at the minor-league level.
It's gonna be a long summer. [But a helluva weekend!]
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by Carolyn Christians on Jun 28, 2010 6:02 PM EDT reply actions
This helps makes sense. Thanks HM!
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by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 28, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Somethings Up
I really thought Carson was going to be re-signed without controversy. I also thought Picard would do whatever it took to re-sign with Carolina. I personally think something is cooking. Obviously, Sanguinetti changed the picture; but Carson is really solid.
By my math, taking the money for Picard, Carson, Whitney, Samsonov buyout and Brind’Amour buyout, the money is there to afford Marc Staal or some other top end defenseman. It could be that Carson’s agent pushed too hard, which is a mistake in dealing with Jim Rutherford; and particularly after Sanguinetti was obtained. I have not a clue if either Carson or Picard will re-sign as UFAs.
That didn’t take long to convert this news to a pending offer sheet on Marc Staal. A long shot, but sure fun to think about.
Wonder how much JR learned talking to other GM’s for 3 days about where the market was going to be this summer. A lot I bet. Something sure changed since Saturday.
It's gonna be a long summer. [But a helluva weekend!]
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Jun 28, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t Chip post a story about Karmanos hoping to find a local buyer sooner than later? With all the draft talk, it’s hard to remember.
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by Carolyn Christians on Jun 28, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s that story from Thursday. Not much to it, but still seems like it’s a possible piece to the puzzle.
“We have a lot of interest from a lot of people around the Raleigh area,” [Karmanos] said, without naming names…….Karmanos said he hoped to have the sale completed by the end of the summer, but added, “I don’t like putting time frames on things like that.”
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by Carolyn Christians on Jun 28, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Did anyone believe that quote? It sounded more like posturing to me.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Yeah, doesn't sound concrete at all to me.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
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by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Right – something beyond just the acquisition of Sanguinetti must have transpired at the draft in order for JR to something that would appear as foolish as not qualifying Carson. Something must be up.
Let's go Hartolina WhalerCanes!!!! I am a big fan of the Canes, but I still have some residual Brass Bonanza Blue and Green in me.
Whoa, there.
We currently only have 16 players signed and already have $42.3M on the books.
There just isn’t any money at all for Whitney, nor has there been since the salary budget was announced. Nor will buyouts get you anything at all other than perhaps being able to now come in at that self-imposed budget with a full roster.
And, that’s if minimum wage $0.5M players are used to flesh out said roster.
No need to get excited.
I think management would allow an extra $3-4 million to be spent on our salary floor team if it meant adding another Staal. If Brind’Amour and Samsonov are bought out, that is an extra $3 million or so savings next season (Paying about $2.5 million buyout versus $6 million salary next season).
We have to spend at least $43 million I think as it is the Salary Floor… If we added anyone at all I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Marc Staal given recent comments by the Rangers and the possibility of offer sheets. A trade is more likely than offer sheet, but we would have to give up something decent in return.
BUDGET, WHAT BUDGET
Because the Hurricanes “salary cap” is self-imposed, it can be lifted at any time. You may well be right; but it doesn’t make sense to me that Jim Rutherford is still negotiating with Whitney unless money is budgeted. Similarly, money has to be budgeted for Carson and Picard because they are negotiating. Money is money. Whether it goes to Carson, Picard, Whitney, Samsonov, and/or Brind’Amour or whether it is used to for another player – such as Marc Staal, it is money to be spent. Surely we would all agree bundling the money and spending it on Marc Staal, for example, is a good use of cash.
I don’t think he is negotiating with Whitney. Whitney’s gone.
Nor, once PK made his announcement, did we ever really have any money to talk to Whitney about.
I’m sure we went through the motions, but the effort was doomed once the self-imposed cap was imposed.
Elsker, you may be right, but you also may be wrong. Like Adoug is saying, its a self imposed cap. I fully believe the canes will go over. How much? Thats the question. Im assuming they low-balled themselves, possibly for negotiation purposes maybe? If they said 44-45mil, I believe they’ll spend closer to 50 before all is said and done. Havent you learned yet that just because JR releases it to the media it doesnt make it “bible”?
What I haven’t heard is PK say “Yeah, I’m willing to cover $6M in losses this season, and screw the advice of those that I’ve retained to help me sell my former partner’s interest in the org.”
So, no, I’m not believing for one moment that you’re going to see anything of the sort this season.
I doubt they go over by $5-6 million as well. Maybe if they are in a position to make the playoffs they’ll go over at the trade deadline, but I don’t think it’s just a negotiating measure. They’ve gone over their self-imposed budget before, but more to the tune of $1 million.
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by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 28, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Roster Status
We have 12 forwards, 3 defensemen, and one goalie signed for $42.4M of actual salary budget next season:
Brind’Amour
Cole
Dwyer
Jokinen
Kostopoulos
LaRose
Ruutu
Samson
Samsonov
Staal
Sutter
Tlusty
Gleason
Harrison
Pitkanen
Ward
Add in Sanquinetti at $0.855M and we’re at $43.3M and still need a goalie and at least two more (three would be better) defensemen.
So, add in league-minimum $0.5M salaries for those three missing pieces ($1.5M total) and we’re at $44.8M for a 20-player roster, still ideally needing perhaps an extra D and F for a 22-player roster.
There’s no room to add anyone at all that actually has some experience or might be anything beyond…well, league minimum.
Again, our budget is really going to keep us from fielding the competitive team we’d all like to see.
Wouldn’t you agree, however, that the budget is a self-imposed budget and therefore there is nothing stopping the organization from expanding their budget?
Heck, it’s worse than that, once I really start looking at things, since McBain is likely to join the D-corps, and he’s signed at $0.855M for next season, not the league minimum.
Boychuk is at $1.2M and is likely to be on the roster, we’d all agree.
How about Dalpe at $0.86M? Maybe some of these borderline AHL/NHL players will only be up for part of the season on two-way contracts, but it looks like the salary budget is blown before we can even field a team.
Yeah, the budget now isn’t the budget come next season.
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by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 28, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Buyouts
Elsker, surely you would prefer to see Samsonov and Brind’Amour bought out rather than seeing prospects sent away as a budget cutting measure, right?
I think the $43M to $45M self-imposed budget is not the salary cap figure, but actual payroll. With that said McBain’s actually dollar figure before bonuses is around $750K, Boychuk’s is around $875K, and Dalpe’s is around $640K. This is just like Staal and Ward; Staal salary is $1.25M less than his cap hit and Ward’s is $1.3M less than his cap hit.
I think we have a LITTLE more money to play with than you think.
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by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 7:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I was looking at CapGeek, which I am unfamiliar with, but already had open from a previous post. Thought I was looking at salary, and not cap hit.
Now I’m on nhlnumbers.com and more familiar ground. There, I can clearly see us at $39.9M in salary (not cap hit) with only 15 players identified contributing toward that total.
That’s with 11 forwards, 3 defenseman, and 1 goalie.
Need a forward or two, 3-4 defensemen, and a back-up goalie for roughly $4M.
Looks like league-minimum talent to me.
Elsker, you are correct in regards to actually salary. I believe the minimum number of players on each teams roster is 22. So here is what I’ve come up with at the moment.
Jokinen ($1.9) – Staal ($7.5) – Cole ($3)
Boychuk ($.875) – Sutter ($.875) – Ruutu ($4)
Tlusty ($.5) – Dalpe ($.638) – LaRose ($1.9)
Samsonov ($2.8) – Brind’Amour ($3) – Kostopoulos ($.95)
Dwyer ($.5)
Gleason ($3) – McBain ($.685)
Pitkanen ($4.5) – Babchuk ($1.5)
Sanguetti ($.765) – Harrison ($.5)
Borer ($.561)
Ward ($5) – Peters ($.743)
Actually salary – $45.692
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by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 9:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Buddy, can you spare $2M?
So, to reduce this $45.7 payroll by approximately $2M, in order to land it at the targeted $43.7M (cap floor is $43.4M), a couple of options include:
- Brind’Amour could be bought out for an approximate $2M savings in cash flow for ‘10-’11
- Samsonov could be bought out for an approximate $1.8M savings in cash flow for ‘10-’11
- Cole ($2.8M) traded for a prospect coming back at $0.8M
- Samsonov ($2.5M) traded for a prospect coming back a $0.5M
There aren’t very many other options, short of giving Jokinen or LaRose away for nothing.
Saving Cash Flow
I had reached the same conclusion that buying out Brind’Amour and Samsonov was going to be the least draconian way to reduce salary expenses. I also think that LaRose could well be traded to reduce the over all expenses. I don’t know that the trade would be made to give LaRose away for nothing. I wonder if Cole will be able to generate much value in trade.
I don’t like this move, but reality is reality. I could see JR trade TK to a team like Vancouver that needs to add a little grit to their 3rd and 4th line. TK has a cheap contract for the rest of the NHL, but 950K is a lot of money to the Canes for a 4th line player. They could slide Samson into TK’s spot and save $450K.
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by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 11:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Kostopoulos
Yes, that is how I think the season goes. I think Jim Rutherford will engage in asset management and will try to gather more draft choices; and unless a veteran player has elite talent, he’ll make trades. The young forwards will be given a chance to show what they can do.
What I hope is that Jim Rutherford will bundle the saved cash to add an impact player and particularly on defense if Carson does not re-sign.
Buying out Brind’Amour and Samsonov would save an additional $3.8M this season, but would cost an additional $1.9M on the 2011/2012 payroll.
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by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 11:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Eating into those savings are the payroll costs of their replacements, even if they’re just $0.5M AHL journeymen.
So, the savings are reduced by at least a million, and probably more.
Plus, we do have to spend at least the cap floor minimum of $43.4M.
Brind'Amour
Brind’Amour counts for $3.5 million in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 if he is bought out; as I recall the math; so buying Brind’Amour out helps ensure the Hurricanes meet the CAP minimum.
Oh, I also forgot to add $733K for Kaberle’s buyout. That will count on are payroll this season and help/hurt us in regards to the salary cap. The Islanders spent less than the cap floor a couple of seasons because of some big time buyouts.
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by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 11:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Someone has got to explain this to me! I don’t mind Picard being let go, he was pretty much useless anyway. But Carson? A kid we developed and someone that showed they were a solid 3rd pairing guy. Let him go to arbitration, what’s he going to get $1M? This move make the Harrison signing look even more stupid. It appears that the organization is positive that Harrison is the answer for a 3rd pairing guy. Who is JR getting advice from; a MOron?
Not resigning Carson is unbelievable. He still cheap and young and knows our system. This has been the most confusing offseason I’ve ever witnessed.
So, right now, this is our projected defense.
Gleason – McBain
Pitkanen – Babchuk
Sanguetti – Harrison (wtf)
Borer (who’s still recovering from a neck injury)
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by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 6:56 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Simply put, if he were to go to Arbitration and win, the ’Canes have to pay whatever he was awarded. So that means the ’Canes are willing to pay him no more than what they have offered and value retaining potential salary over the potential loss of Carson.
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by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 28, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Borer is fine.
He played in 32 games last year.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
well I too am
sorta surprised,but NOT shocked by this turn of events…now i do agree with Elsker & adoug on many things they both have said…but let’s say for the sake of the argument that we fans end up saying byew bye to the likes of Whitney,Samsonov,BrindA’mour (from the ice to the office) and say the likes of Picard,Potheir and Manny do go away…That could or would ( on paper anyway) leave room for Carson and Sanguetti especially IF and I say IF Babchuck returns…gee wasn’t trhe day time "emmy’s just on?/ Sounds like a NHL soap opera to me…as the self imposed budget is just that…but with what i have seen here today…Sorry AD JR can’t really even think about an "offer sheet " for Marc Staal…it would be nice…but NOT practical in the attempt…stay cool folks and i gots to get me one of those NEW Checkers 3rd Sweaters…they ROCK !!
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
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Just so everyone understands why the Canes would want to avoid arbitration, they could only walk away from the ruling if the money was less than about $1.04M annually. Here’s the CBA clause:
If a Club has elected to arbitrate a one-year SPC, and the award issued is
for $1,042,173 or more per annum, then the Club may, within forty-eight (48) hours after
the award of the Salary Arbitrator is issued (or, if a Club has any other Player still eligible
for salary arbitration at that time and for whom a decision has not been rendered by a
Salary Arbitrator at that time, and the Club still has a walk-away right available to it
Just so everyone understands why the Canes would want to avoid arbitration, they could only walk away from the ruling if the money was less than about $1.04M annually. Here’s the CBA clause:
In light of this, I think letting Picard go is a good thing. No need to be stuck paying a guy that kind of money that is not going to play, and looking at Babs coming back and what we already have, Alex was not going to crack the big clubs roster.
Because the Hurricanes "salary cap" is self-imposed, it can be lifted at any time. You may well be right; but it doesn’t make sense to me that Jim Rutherford is still negotiating with Whitney unless money is budgeted. Similarly, money has to be budgeted for Carson and Picard because they are negotiating. Money is money. Whether it goes to Carson, Picard, Whitney, Samsonov, and/or Brind’Amour or whether it is used to for another player – such as Marc Staal, it is money to be spent. Surely we would all agree bundling the money and spending it on Marc Staal, for example, is a good use of cash.
Also, Parsons might be right. Perhaps BB and the party are going to go a bit over budget for someone better. BB and The Party always make the best decisions. Always.
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by Douchebag St John on Jun 28, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry .. walk away if it was MORE than $1.04M.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 28, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought so, thanks Cory!
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by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 28, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
So if Carson is awarded more that $1.04M, the Canes could walk away? Carson played 3rd & some 2nd pairing minutes last season. With our limited budget and limited defense, he would certainly see 3rd pairing minutes and most likely some minutes with Pitkanen. So, the Canes feel Carson is not worth $1M? This just doesn’t make since to me. Again, this makes the Harrison signing that much more retarded. I think Carson would make a much better partner for Sanguetti than Harrison, but I guess JR knows best (ha)!
I guess if there is a questionable move to be made this summer, the Canes are the likely ones to do it. Unless it involves spending any money at all.
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by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 8:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not sure if I have this completely right but here is my understanding of it. If the ‘Canes had extended a qualifying offer, they retain the negotiating rights to the players. Certain players have arbitration rights which means if they don’t like the qualifying offer, they can take the team to arbitration and a arbiter can award the Players a contract higher than the qualifying offer, which the team must accept.
Since the ‘Canes did not extend qualifying offers and instead chose to offer 1-way contracts, it’s as if the two were offered UFA contracts. If they accept then great, but if they decline, then they will go to free agency.
A qualifying offer and a contract are different in that way. Carson and Picard have been offered contracts that they can choose to turn down. They can’t go to arbitration, nor are they obligated to take the contracts.
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by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 28, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s another thing that baffles me about the whole Carson situation. If the Canes had extended a QO, and Carson chose to file arbitration, that would have bought JR another month’s leeway (plus or minus) on a buyout decision on his candidates for buyout because arbitration opens up the buyout window. Seems like that would have been nice to have.
I’ve thought for awhile that perhaps one of these contracts was lingering because of the arbitration angle, but there goes that theory.
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by Jamie Kellner on Jun 28, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Balancing the Budget
One factor that shouldn’t be lost in the chaos of the moment is the fact that Jim Rutherford is making it clear to present and future Canes players and agents that it is a huge mistake to jerk his chain in any fashion. Neither Picard nor Carson hold huge leverage.
The Hurricanes have virtually never, if ever, had to take a player to arbitration. If Carson were awarded $1,000,000.00, other younger players would rightly feel they deserved a raise. Don’t get me wrong. I really like Carson and Picard. I think Carson has proven himself more than Picard; but I think both have talent.
On the other hand, I understand why Jim Rutherford is taking this stance. I also have a feeling Jim Rutherford has other irons in the fire and that the combined salary along with Whitney cash may yield a much bigger prize than either Carson or Picard.
Neither Carson not Picard, IMO, tried to play hardball with JR. As JR has said concerning Babchuk a million times, arb right are something earned. He wouldn’t hold it again those guys to go to arbitration, but in the end the team decided they couldn’t be bound by the terms of arbitration if the result came in high ($1.04M or less and it’s a binding ruling).
I think Carson could be back, but I also think the team will be sniffing around on Thursday to see if they can get a UFA D.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 29, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this assessment of everyone’s current decision points.
A “take it or leave it” one-way offer is on the table, but the money behind it is being actively shopped on what is, admittedly, an emerging UFA market.
Stay at home D is what we need, JR. Enough with the puck moving fetish. Crease-clearing, earthmover, thumping, fight you, please.
WTF
Carson!? We’ve spent all this time and money drafting and developing him just because he wants a little more than the minimum qualifying offer I assume JR gave him at $660,000!? I’m usually supportive of JR but this does not make any sense!!
Whats people’s opinions of whether there is a chance that we still sign him despite him going into free agency?
I hope we do get him back! With Pit, McBain, Babchuk, and Sanguinetti all being primarily offensive, we could do with Carson’s defensive capabilities to accompany Gleason… and Harrison…
Think of it like Tlusty …. they’re hoping he’ll take less money for a one-way deal (and hoping that Carson has loyalty to Carolina and a comfort level as to where he fits with the team).
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 28, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
1st a correction or clarification..
Carson has been offered a contract ??$$ , and if he doesn’t except, then he can walk!! but you have to realize, if he goes there’s no guarantee he’ll get ANY job offer elsewhere… so it’s a big gamble for him, eh?!!
It’s a tough market for a non-elite defensemen to decide to break away from the team that drafted him. Maybe Carson and his agent need a dose of reality.
Sorry ahead of time for this jackass statement.
Maybe PK and JR need a dose of reality that you actually have to pay for players! The Harrison signing was simply a mistake and management keeps making unusual decisions. Maybe something is upon the horizon, but I can’t see the horizon right now because it is pitch black outside.
Also, didn’t JR all out lie to us? He said QO would be extended to Carson and Picard and then the news today.
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by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 11:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Every time you change your mind, it's a lie?
Wow. Tough crowd, that one.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Why shouldn’t they at least see what’s out there? If all else fails and they’re without a job, JR (or someone else) could always come back with a two-way deal for them that isn’t all that different from the QO they would’ve received. So they’d lose out on the one-way deal JR offered, but I doubt they’d be out of hockey all together.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 29, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks Cory
that should clear up spme confusion for some folks here…
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
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I’m happy for this a little bit. I did not like Picard. Thought he played like crap. It was a bad acquisition. We don’t need any more injury prone players, especially not defenseman.
Hopefully the 'Canes re-sign Ray Whitney to a nice 2 year deal and he retires comfortably at age 40. Maybe even 1 more Stanley Cup? :)
can't agree..
Several people here have said that they don’t “like” Picard. I have no problem with a difference of opinion, but i’m curious what you saw that i didn’t? In the short time he played, i thought he looked pretty good. What did he do (or not do) that was so bad?
Strange that JR changed his tune since Saturday when Bob reported that the Canes would qualify all their RFAs. I’ve been a JR fan, but I gotta admit that this seems unusual. I get that there’s posturing with the media, and that players acquired may change plans, but even the prospect of letting Carson go seems counter-intuitive to me. He was a solid contributor to the run in the second half last year and it seemed like he earned a spot on the D for 10-11. Sanguinetti makes the D better, but not at the cost of losing Carson.
As a general rule when a 180 degree turn happens this fast, usually there are additional facts that later come to light to make the seemingly inexplicable behavior understandable. Rational people tend to do rational things. Telling Carson to hit the road does not seem reasonable to me. I suspect a deal will be worked out with Carson. Picard is another matter. I think Picard has to take a one way of $550,000 to stick.
Picard was making $850k last year. By the CBA, the minimum offer must be 105% of that or $892,500.
His numbers are similar to Sanguinetti.
Carson made in the $500k+ and required a 110% offer. Less than $600k. The way I understand it, is that if he didn’t take it, then he might get $1.0 mil in arbitration and the Canes would have to pay it. That is Rutherford’s concern.
And I agree, there something “fishy” and I expect it may be more evident as the week goes on.
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by Carolyn Christians on Jun 28, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
There is reason for JR’s stance on Picard and Carson. I’m not worried about Picard as much as I am Carson, because I believe the latter is a good player and a great prospect. Therefore, there is something fishy going on here.
JR was talking to Sather over the weekend for sure, which led to the Sanguinetti acquisition. I wonder if they talked about other things as well, such as the Rangers’ status with Marc Staal. Maybe JR got some inside information on what the Rangers offered Staal and what he might demand on the open market. This is theoretical, but I think that JR got more enlightened on the Staal situation over the weekend. With the walkouts of Carson and Picard combined with the possible buyouts of Brindy and Samsonov, maybe the Canes could work something out to get Staal…who knows. The Canes could bend their budget a little to get a player like Staal.
But the Carson situation seems especially odd given that JR has been really high on him for awhile. So creating a hole and allowing him to walk along with Picard means something is up.
by DesertCaniac on Jun 28, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
JR on the decision not to qualify Carson and Picard:
"This games us more flexibility with our defense going forward. We could take the money we had budgeted for both of these players and possibly use it on one player in free agency."
What’s he looking at? Maybe Staal? Or somebody else?
by DesertCaniac on Jun 28, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, he could take the $0.5+M he wanted to spend on each of them and pay Carson his market worth.
I wouldn’t be expecting much more than a utility player who needs a job at this point.
I just don’t know why he would run the risk if losing Carson if he has such a good future. But I agree, when it’s all said and done, he should just let Picard go and retain Carson if there isn’t enough money for the both of them.
If he lets Carson go, then he has to do so with good reason. And I just don’t see it unless maybe he has his eyes on a bigger prize. I mean it would be pretty dumb to sign Harrison and not Carson, and I don’t think JR is that stupid…or at least I hope he’s not that stupid.
by DesertCaniac on Jun 28, 2010 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, but $1 mil is NOT market value for a third-pairing guy who's played in 59 total NHL games.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Marc is realistic, but it would be great. Then we would have a 1st pair of Pitkanen/MStaal and a 2nd pair of Gleason/McBain. We would even have to play Harrison unless an in-game injury. Pits would play 30 minutes a night, Gleason 27, MStaal 26, McBain 24, and Sangeuitti 13. That accounts for all 120 minutes for a defense in a normal game. If need be, we could throw Harrison out there 2 or 3 minutes a night to get his a$$ beat.
Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!
by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 10:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He said the same to us at the RBC for Day 2 of the draft b/c I outright asked if the Sanguinetti acquisition would impact Picard. Something may’ve come up via trade, or maybe a pro scout for the team went to JR and said “this guy is a UFA and could fit perfectly with what we want to do at a reasonable rate.”
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 29, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Jim Rutherford and the Duty of Due Diligence
The point I was making with Picard and Carson was not that they were jerks or that there was something wrong morally with seeking arbitration rights. The point I made poorly was that when a GM has a duty of due diligence and other potential, more talented or at least more experienced defensemen might be available for a cost similar to the combined cost of Picard and Carson, the better part of valor is to take a one-way deal at a lower cost and then use the minutes to build up your value to the team and in the eyes of other GMs. Hopefully, this post makes more sense than the previous ones.
I didn’t see Picard play enough to have a real opinion on his value to the organization going forward.
Carson I am completely WTF because something just doesn’t compute for me on that one. There must be something going on there that is not generally known.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
Exactly - something else is at play
It is too fast a change in direction to be explained other than that something else is at play and we will find out later what it is. I still think Carson will sign a one way deal.
I hate
to see Picard go. He was some serious eye candy for us ladies. However, games cannot be won on hotness alone. He didn’t impress me the little I did see of him and for that I don’t mind seeing him go.
As for Carson… we all seem to agree he’s a good player and we all wonder WTF is up. But, does anyone know if there might be some behind the scenes drama that us fans aren’t aware of? Is it possible that Carson has pissed off a few of the wrong ppl? Could there be bad blood between him and some of the core players? Could it be bad enough that having him around is hurting the team behind the scenes?
But, logically, why, oh why, would our GM be saying that a qualifying offer would be given to Carson just the day before this announcement, if there was something amiss?
No, I’m beginning to come around to the theory of it’s just hardball negotiations when cash flow is dictating decisions that would not otherwise be made.
I find it funny that when something doesn’t go right in sports (any sport), the blame seems to go toward the player. Could Carson have done something to piss off the organization; yes. But the most likely scenario is management is just looking to go as cheap as possible. I have nothing on Carson and organization chemistry, but I don’t think Carson has done anything to even begin getting a bad reputation.
Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!
by PackPride17 on Jun 28, 2010 11:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Whoa!!
You’ve taken what I said the wrong way. I was NOT blaming Carson for anything. Throttle back. Everyone, myself included, is trying to figure out what’s going on. Most ppl are mentioning money. I was just throwing some other ideas out there. Maybe there’s something going on behind the scenes that NONE of us know nothing about. We don’t have a clue what Carson is like as a person. Also, I never said the man did anything to get a “bad reputation.”
by CanesLady on Jun 28, 2010 11:58 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Carson's offer
I am really shocked that JR did not qualify Carson. His play was solid last season and I expected that he will get multi-year contract. Now his 09/10 salary $0.52M, qualifying offer would be 110%, if I am not mistaken, that is $.572M. So if he was not qualified, he was offered less than that, If I understand things right.
If JR is only offering less than 10% increase to Carson, who he is basically making minimum NHL salary, that is really an insult and I will be surprised if he takes such an offer. His play warrants more, I could see him getting around $0.7M for the coming season. I do not think he could get much more even via arbitration, Canes have a strong case that he does not have much NHL experience and has not fully proved himself yet. Carson is young and has a lot of upside, I will be upset if he is let go.
If Carson had been extended a QO, he would’ve had arbitration rights. And if they went to arb and Carson won anything less than $1.04M, it is a binding arbitration (no walk-away rights). So if they gave Carson $1M a year, the Canes are stuck with that unless they can trade him away. I guess it was a risk they didn’t want to take. They offered both guys one-way deals (surely less than the QO, since the money is then guaranteed) and both rejected.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 29, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Something else..
One scenario not proposed yet: It’s possible that JR offered (or intended to offer) MORE than the normal “QO” because he thought he deserved more, and then had second thoughts (about the arbitration) so he made the change!
That is NOT correct.
The contract offer he was given could have been as high as you can think. But if Carson thinks he’s worth still more, you can’t make him accept it.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree
MichaelProcton : I think you are wrong here. To qualify Carson , he only has to be offered a 10% raise. It does not matter whether he accepts or not, he is qualified just by getting an offer. That is how RFA works, at least that is my understanding. Somebody correct me if I wrong here.
Since Carson did not get the qualifying offer, the current offer from JR must be less than $0.57M, which is too low since the league minimum is $0.5M. Yes, there is a risk that Carson might go to arbitration, but I do not think that his position as a player who has not even played a full season is not very strong so probably could not get much more anyway.
But Rutherford said he offered both Carson and Picard one-way deals once it was decided they would not offer QOs.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 30, 2010 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions
RFAs who were not qualified
Red Light District listed the RFA players who were not qualified. It makes me wonder if Jim Rutherford didn’t talk to GMs at the draft about players who were going to be available.
Denis Grebeshkov fits the profile of players the Hurricanes tend to take. He is a former first round draft choice. Nashville did not renew him. He plays strong and has an offensive upside. Daniel Paille from Boston is another player who fits the Hurricanes’ profile.
Lauri Tukonen from Tampa Bay is a former #11 pick by Tampa Bay. Here is a link to the scouting report for him at SBNATION.
6’2" 200 lbs; RW
Tampa Bay has been known to bring the Hurricanes some pretty amazing Finnish players whom the Bolts vastly underappreciated.
Assets
* Owns plenty of drive to the net. Likes to use his size in the offensive zone, and is strong on the puck. Displays two-way potential.
Grebeshkov made a TON last year ($3.150M), and while he’ll def. have to take a pay cut, i don’t see him take less than half of what he made last year. I think he’d head back to Russia first.
by Cory Lavalette on Jun 29, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Clarification?
Haven’t seen this asked directly elsewhere. May have missed it. With Carson and Picard not getting qualifying offers the Canes now officially have no one going to arbitration. Is that correct? If so, do all players who are going to be bought have to be bought out by July 1? Players being bought out have to be waived first. Has anyone been waived yet by the Canes? Is it possible for the Canes to acquire a player who is going thru the arbitration process and still buy players out? That’s a long shot no doubt, but is it possible? It’s not explicitly stated in the CBA, but it seems to me that based on the language such a move would be possible.
I just wish JR would have given up Ray Whitney for Lent.
Peters for one was offered a QO..
and i think players who are QO’d have a little time to decide on ARB… so maybe we won’t know that yet?? anybody know mif that’s right?
Is this the day? Or is there a loophole?
Okay, abramsdoug, here’s something for you to work on.
There’s some legalese within the CBA (“I’m shocked, shocked to discover that there is gambling going on here legalese within the CBA!”) that looks to me like it might be a loophole on the July 29th deadline for waivers and contract buyouts.
Take a look at this section (11.18) from the CBA:
11.18 Ordinary Course Buy-Outs Outside the Regular Period. Clubs shall have the right to exercise Ordinary Course Buy-Outs outside the regular period for Ordinary Course Buy-Outs in accordance with Paragraph 13©(ii) of the SPC. Each Club shall be limited to no more than three (3) such buyouts over the term of this Agreement pursuant to Paragraph 13©(ii) of the SPC. However, in the event that a Club has only one salary
arbitration hearing pursuant to Section 12.3(a) in a given League Year, such Club shall not be entitled to exercise such a buyout outside the regular period for Ordinary Course Buy-Outs. No Club shall exercise an Ordinary Course Buy-out outside the regular period for any Player earning less than $1 million.
I can tell you that the “however” clause (Section 12.3.a) does not apply, since it is a club-initiated arbitration hearing to which this sub-section refers.
So, does this essentially mean that “sometime during the course of this CBA agreement, each club can have up to three special exceptions on the ‘Ordinary Course Buyout’ provisions” (which is what the July 29th “time’s up” process is called)?
CBA in PDF format can be found here.
Sure something is up. It’s official: PK and the management of the Carolina Hurricanes have just sold us, the fans, down the river.
All this talk about getting young, that’s a joke. It ain’t about young, as these two moves show. It’s about cheap. If Rod Brind’Amour would agree to a contract renegotiation of 500K/yr for another three years, they’d give it to him.
If Brindamour would take 500k for 3 years I’D sign him.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jun 29, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
harrison and not carson? stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
I think when one of our D-men gets injured this season they should force JR to suit up and play…
I can't handle... this team.
by Andrea's evil twin on Jun 30, 2010 9:06 AM EDT reply actions
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