CBS Sports: Thrashers, Panthers, and Lightning Trending Up In Southeast
by Bob Wage on Jul 13, 2010 11:38 PM EDT
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Wes Goldstein from CBSSports.com previewed the Southeast Division on Tuesday and predicted that the division might just tighten up a bit. Thanks to "aggressive" new management in Atlanta, Tampa Bay, and Sunrise, Florida, he sees each of those teams trending up while so far the Washington Capitals and Carolina Hurricanes are heading "sideways".
At this point, one really can't argue with him too much as Rick Dudley has brought in several new faces to play for the Thrashers, Dale Tallon had a terrific draft class in Los Angeles for the Panthers, and Steve Yzerman apparently gets credit for being a great manager simply because he was a tremendous Red Wing captain.
While Goldstein does credit Jim Rutherford for possibly being "the league's most under-appreciated uber-GM", he went on to say that Carolina's big free agent signing was Joe Corvo and the franchise is moving "sideways."
Washington has yet to make any significant free agent moves themselves, but the offseason is still young and everyone knows they will beef up the lineup sooner or later. They still have some room with their cap.
This is probably just the first of numerous projections that the Hurricanes will not be improved from last season. It should give the team extra motivation, if nothing else.
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Rebuilding
Free agent signings are less interesting, or should be, when a team is in a real rebuilding mode. When you have all the pieces you need in your system, though some are a year or two away, there is no reason to become a free agent nut. What team has had that really work out for them? The one team that comes to mind is Chicago with Hossa long term for great money, but you can always look at the Huet deal to even that thought out.
The one team that I think really raised its value this year was Atlanta. They were able to get some steals from Chicago in Byfuglien and Ladd for very little cost. But Tampa? Come on… They have 7 forwards signed at this point (3 RFA’s still to sign) and a trainwreck in goal still.
The Hurricanes are going young, and I hope/wish they go all the way (Skinner, Dalpe, Nash, Osala, Tlusty, and Boychuk full timers). I’d much rather sit in my seats to watch kids grow and learn the game then last years fall mess. I’d ignore the projections of us not improving, with the vet’s we have and the kids this team could be something special.
Young players
I’m almost surprised he didn’t have us going down. Preseason evaluations (guesses) like this tend to look at changing from veterans to youth as a backstep, until the young guns start actually fulfilling their promise. We weren’t active in the free agent market, and we are infusing the lineup with prospects. I know we Caniacs are enthusiastic, and hopeful, but this is a pretty acurate evaluation. Short term we have little sure knowledge, only hope.
I can’t launch the above link (maybe because it’s in the subject line?) so trying it again here:
Very interesting and insightful comments from his former coach and from his brother. And nice to again hear Jared reiterate his positive experience here last week.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jul 14, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, links do not go hyper in the subject.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I like you Bob, but you tend to be a little bit too optimistic with this team. They’re young, and we that follow the team closely can see the potential of these players, but saying they’re unproven would almost be giving them too much credit. Let’s face facts, this team has no secondary scorer to go with Staal. Think about it, Kane and Toews, Crosby and Malkin, Ovechkin and Semin, Marleau and Heatley (and Thornton), Staal and…. ??? Offense isn’t the end all for a successful team, but unless you have a stout defensive game (and besides Gleason there are no proven defensemen that can play great in their own zone on a consistent basis), you’re not going to contend for the playoffs.
I think one of the main reasons fans were so disappointed with the team this last year (myself included) was that we had completely unrealistic expectations of what they could do. They made a great run in the ‘09 playoffs, so we all drank the punch and decided we were going to be there every year, when in reality the Canes simply got hot at exactly the right time and had some luck roll their way, I’m not discounting the amazing job they did that season, but you can’t depend on luck and an amazingly hot 30-game stretch every season, it’s just not realistic.
by Kubota on Jul 14, 2010 8:45 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
There are some guys who have scored 25 or 30 goals in the NHL, so while I agree that scoring may be a concern, saying there is no secondary scoring is premature. Ruutu scored 26 two seasons ago when healthy. Jokinen had 30 last year. Cole’s not a 30-goal guy anymore, but he could get 20 if things go his way. Furthermore, I think the team has a very good shot to produce from the back end. Corvo and Babchuk have scored 14 (twice) and 16 in a season, respectively. McBain has that potential as early as this year. Pitkanen could score more, but he puts up great points back there.
Personally, I’m more concerned that there’s not more toughness on the blueline. Pitkanen and Corvo are good positional d-men, and Joni has some snarl, but I would’ve liked one more stay-at-home guy.
by Cory Lavalette on Jul 14, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Jussi was great for the team last season and proved to be JR’s steal of the year as far as contracts go, but with all the injuries to Cole, Ruutu, Staal, and Brindy’s unfortunate continued fall I think he was playing a line higher than he typically would on the team when it was at full strength. I’d love for him to put up another 60+ point season and prove me wrong, but I think a solid 40-50 point year is more likely (and certainly still worth the money).
Ruutu I think is going to be the important factor here, he has the potential to top 30 goals, but he’s yet to do it in his career, so I’m reluctant to say it’s in the bag. Hopefully the youngin’s will be able to fill the 50ish point gap that Whitney would have put up, and while I don’t think another 40-point season is unreasonable for Joni (especially in a contract year) I have no idea of what to expect of Corvo and Babchuk. Definitely agree with your assessment of the blueline toughness, maybe (if he signs, of course) Carson can step up now that he has his feet wet?
This team is rife with potential, which is exciting, but like I mentioned to Bob, after the calamitous start last year I’m reluctant to start saving up for playoff tickets just yet.
Toughness and size
I agree Cory, in fact I think toughness and size are going to be our primary problems this year.
The Canes talk a lot about getting bigger, but we didn’t add anyone of substantial size to help us next year, O or D.
And I agree with Kubota, Ruutu’s play is going to be critical for us this year. For goals and for toughness up front.
Kubota
I admit that I was way off base last year, (as were several other “experts” around the league who picked the Canes to do make the playoffs, including those from The Hockey News, TSN, and others in the mainstream media ), but I have yet to form an opinion or make a prediction about this coming year’s team.
Having said that, I don’t think the expectations last year were that unrealistic. No one counted on a 14 game winless streak. No one counted on Staal being injured much of the year and missing time for the first time in his career, (and facing a death in his family). No one counted on Cam Ward missing two large chunks of time due to different significant injuries. Stuff happens.
I was being serious above when saying that you can not argue with the above assessment too much other than giving Yzerman lots of credit for not doing very much in Tampa Bay, (yet).
Editing Manager of CanesCountry.com
by Bob Wage on Jul 14, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
To be fair, I must say my disagreement’s are more with (what I perceive to be) your thoughts on the team as a whole as opposed to this post specifically, and I definitely agree that the writer is giving Stevie Y a lot of credit for what seems to be little activity.
So I guess I’ll withhold my opinion of your opinion until you formally present it. Also I’m not trying to single you out in saying you were too optimistic last season because I was definitely a part of that group also, Staal’s injury could not be anticipated, and while Ward missed more games than he typically does it seems like it’s been common for him to miss a week or two here and there with a nagging injury. Granted that happens to everyone in such a long season, but I’m hoping Coach Mo will learn his lesson and not ride Cam so hard for long stretches early in the season, even though Cam says he’s good to go, Mo needs to put his foot down and sit him on the second night of a back-to-back, I think he’d be much more effective in the long haul if they pace him for 60-65 starts instead of the 75 they seem to shoot for the last few seasons. I’m now realizing this is a completely different topic, I guess since I have the ear of the bossman I’m going for broke :)
Anyhoo, I guess my nightmares from the 14-game skid haven’t faded, and I worry some are forgetting what happened and putting on the rose-colored shades again. I’m very excited to see this young group of guys hit the ice, but they’re young, and they’re going to take their lumps before they contribute consistently.
Wardo may be more effective, sure...
But this isn’t a team with enough money to burn money on a great backup that won’t substantially lower our chances to win in those extra 12 games he doesn’t start.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally, I would LOVE to see another hot 30-game stretch but agree it’s not realistic. Another MAJOR factor we have to consider for this season before we get too excited is veteran depth. If God forbid Staal gets injured, who steps up to (a) lead the team and (b) pick up his scoring? Until all our talented, hard-working youngsters are able to cycle through a complete season and get a feel for other teams we’re going to be scrambling. That said, I’m still looking forward to watching us scramble around and get better than loaf around, not try hard and get spanked every night.
To be honest, I think we’d be looked at a little better by outside media outlets if we had at least resigned a forward to complement Staal, like say….Ray Whitney…but it didn’t happen, so once again we’ll be in a rebuilding season again (which I could have sworn that’s what Jim Rutherford said about last season before it started…) – and I doubt we’ll make the playoffs for another 2 years. Rinse, wash and repeat.
Jim Rutherford is a moron.
What?
You’re way off. JR came out in late January and said the team would start the rebuilding process a little earlier than expected. Last year was not supposed to be a rebuilding season but became so after the team underperformed so badly and it became apparent that the playoffs were too far out of reach. This year will be a rebuilding year and anything else would be a very welcome surprise.
Expectations and the Playoffs
The commentators who have written off the Hurricanes didn’t watch them play from late December, 2009, to the end of the season. It’s that simple. The young players showed they had tremendous potential and they more than held their own. I agree with Cory that the test for 2010-2011 will be around the crease defensively against teams like Boston, Washington, Philadelphia, Washington, and now Atlanta. The Hurricanes will need to be successful against teams that are built around the inside, physical game.
I would challenge anybody to look at the last thirty games of the season and find any game where the young players for the Hurricanes were not impressive. The Hurricanes of 2010-2011 are faster, more talented, and more committed shift to shift than the team that flopped over the first twenty-five or thirty games. The Hurricanes also had to deal with an amazing run of injuries during the first twenty-five or thirty games. To say the Hurricanes are going through a traditional rebuild I think is a mistaken characterization.
The Hurricanes jettisoned A. Ward, Wallin, Alberts, and Yelle. Brind’Amour retired. Cullen was essentially beat out for the second line center by Sutter and there is certainly no drop off in performance or ability by having Sutter and not Cullen. Walker is gone. Corvo is back with the team. Whitney is gone and will be missed but the Hurricanes have incredible depth at forward and Whitney just wasn’t the same player after the trade deadline for whatever reason. So Whitney was not the reason the Hurricanes started winning in late December, 2009.
I am not a great believer in cliches or strictly conclusion-based assertions such as the Hurricanes lost a wealth of veterans, or the Hurricanes are rebuilding and it will take two years or more such as I read from some hockey commentators. Let’s look at the facts and try to make predictions about the future grounded in data. It’s hard enough to guess the future performance of an NHL team using the best available information. It’s impossible using the magic 8 ball.
I think you’re holding too much to what happened last season, any momentum or confidence they had from the way they ended the season is gone, summers do that. I’m not writing them off because look back to the expectations that were set for them the year they won the cup. It’s going to be tough though, the SE looks tougher, we got a lot of inexperience, and most would say we lack a credible 3rd line center. We’ll see.
I disagree about Cullen, he’s a hell of the 2nd line center on most teams and I don’t see Sutter’s performance being significantly better than Cullen’s. If Cullen were still here I’d still play Sutter on the 3rd line.
Sutter v Cullen
Cullen is a good center. In sixty games for the Canes he had 12 goals and 28 assists. I doubt seriously any GM would pick Cullen over Sutter. Sutter is taller, faster, and more physicala than Cullen. Sutter is more effective at the inside game than Cullen. Sutter is better positionally than Cullen. Sutter scored more goals than Cullen last season. Cullen is aan excellent center; but Sutter is a better center than Cullen in every phase.
Cullen has some things going for him over Sutter, IMO. He’s definitely more versatile and a threat to score in more areas on the ice (PK, PP point). He’s also a good shootout guy. I also think Cullen, as a streaky player, has the ability to be the best player in the league for a week b/c when he gets going it seems everything works for him. Trouble is he can also go a week with no points (tho still has value even on nights when he doesn’t score).
I’m not saying that makes him better than Sutter, and in a decade I’m sure people will think back more favorably on Sutter’s career than Cullen’s through his early 30s. But I think it’s a little early to say Sutter is better in every phase right now.
by Cory Lavalette on Jul 14, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Cullen and Shootouts
Cory,
Did Cullen score a shoot out goal in 2099-2010? Just from my memory, I can’t remember one.
Of Cullen’s 12 goals in 2009-2010, do you recall
how many were short-handed?
Sent via Iphone
2-1-3 shorthanded, 0-3 in the shootout (but around 40 percent on his career, IIRC)
by Cory Lavalette on Jul 14, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Sutter v. Cullen
Sutter played 72 games. He had 21 goals, 19 assists, and 5 of his goals game on the power play.
Cullen played 60 games, he had 60 12 goals, 28 assists, and had 1 goal on the power play.
Sutter and Cullen both killed penalties.
Here is my assessment of both in some categories:
Speed: Sutter, I believe, is a faster skater, although Cullen is quite fast.
Acceleration: Sutter and Cullen seem about equal to me on acceleration.
Defensive positioning: Sutter has the edge
Vision on the ice: Sutter has much better vision on the ice.
Strength on Skates behind the net: Sutter is much, much stronger on his skates when behind the net. Cullen was one of the Hurricanes weakest skaters in terms of keeping his balance when defended behind the net.
Ability to win battles in the corners: Sutter used his reach and quick hands and tenacity to win far more puck battles in the corner;
Short handed offensive ability: Cullen gets the slightest of edges on being able to turn a penalty kill into an offensive opportunity;
Will to score in the danger zones: Sutter is overwhelming ahead in this category. Cullen was at his weakest in finishing in the zones where it was a battle of will and willingness to pay the price
Physical game: Sutter is overwhelmingly ahead in this category. Cullen did not take well to Maurice’s approach of using the body to separate pucks from the player;
Ability to lift the puck to top shelf goals in close: Sutter is overwhelmingly ahead in this category. It is extremely hard for players to move laterally across the crease and lift the puck. Sutter is one of the talented players who has the strength and eye hand coordination to convert these opportunities into goals
Slashing though the crease offensively: Sutter is vastly ahead of Cullen in this skill area.
Offensive creativity one on one: Cullen gets the edge in this category.
Willingness to take a hit to make a play: Sutter gets the advantage in this area
Cerebral understanding of the game: Sutter has the advantage over Cullen. Cullen often took the puck into traffic and lost the puck when that decision was highly dubious
Setting up teammates with passes: Sutter gets a significant edge. Sutter has the anticipation and hands to set up his linemates, and particularly when Sutter is behind the net
I am not hammering Cullen. He is an excellent center and has shown himself to be a fine center in the NHL. He is somewhat of a vagabond player, but to some degree he is a victim of his own success. As a streaky player, Cullen can carry a team for short periods; and his services are in demand. He lacks that extra dose of something, however, that makes him a core player; and as a result he has been seen as a player whose value includes trade value.
My eyes crossed somewhere down this novelette, but the observation I would make on the paragraphs I did manage to read is that these are all obviously simply your opinions.
If that’s what you’re representing then fine, but it comes across as if you’re presenting all of this as somehow being fact.
No data supports most of these claims: faster? accelerates quicker? cerebral understanding of the game? vision?
How the heck would anyone know which of the two has more of a certain quality than the other?
And, also I guess I’m missing your point. Why is it important that Sutter exceeds Cullen in all of these categories you have created and judged anyway?
by Elsker on Jul 14, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Elsker, those statements are my observations from watching many hours of Hurricanes video from 2009-2010. Speed: I watched both players and tried to judge as best I could how quickly they got up to full speed. One way to tell about acceleration was watching whether they were able to get to full stride quickly enough to force defenders to turn and run.
The easiest observation to make had to do with strength on skates behind the net. Sutter was almost impossible to knock down behind the net and even when he was knocked down Sutter often was able to control the puck and get back up on his skates. Cullen had a great deal of trouble keeping his balance when hit behind the net.
Vision on the ice is also a matter of watching video and seeing whether a player accurately reads the play and particularly whether the player sees the options available to him on a consistent basis. To me the most impressive part of Sutter’s game is that he already anticipates plays when that skill usually takes years to develop. Sutter to me shows a very sophisticated understanding of the game. On the other hand, I often found myself concluding that Cullen was taking the puck into the teeth of the defense when he had other options available to him.
Your arguments need support
“Sutter has much better vision on the ice.”
What could possibly drive you to make that claim? Do you even have the requisite credentials to judge something like that? That is something I would expect a coach or a player to say about another player. We fans can only comment on who seems to have the better “on-ice vision” and I would make the argument that Cullen is better in that category and I would support it by pointing to the fact that Cullen had more assists in fewer games than Sutter. This would be just one example of an argument that one with a less than professional background in hockey can make regarding the value of players but the same idea can be applied to nearly all of the claims you made.
If you think Sutter is better than Cullen at this point, fine. I won’t argue that and would probably agree with you. But if by saying so you are intimating that by losing Matt Cullen the team is somehow not affected then you are Crazy (notice the capital “C”). This is especially true considering what the team has for a third line center currenlty, which is a ?.
I am only posting observations I have made by watching the Hurricanes videos from 2009-2010 on www.nhl.com. I try to focus on particular players using media player to rewind. I then compare my observations with those observations and comments by other fans and commentators.
What became apparent to me from watching the videos was that Sutter was making great decisions on the ice. Interestingly, the coaches made the same comments as well.
Cullen is quite a fine center. He will be helpful to the Wild. He is not particularly well suited to the style of play the Hurricanes play. His strength is in offensive creativity and open spaces. His weaknesses are at the physical side of the game. He does not finish well in traffic, for example; and he does not keep his balance well behind the net.
Without any consideration of age or salary, I think Sutter is far more suited to play Hurricanes hockey on the second line than Cullen. On the other hand, any team could use Cullen. He is very versatile. He is fast and he can get hot and carry a team. Whether he is a player that most teams would pay $3 million or $3.5 million is another question.
I guess I have issues with a lot of this.
Sutter, IMO, is not an overly physical player (was in fact outhit by Cullen last season). Also, at this stage Cullen has proven to be a better passer and have better vision with the puck — Sutter’s 19 assists (and 24 total in 122 career games) to Cullen’s 28 last year point to that, I’d say.
Also, some of these categories were created, it seems, just so you could tick off a mark in the Sutter category. Why not elusiveness (Cullen) or versatility (Cullen)?
If you go back and watch Sutter’s goals last year, you’ll see that where he excels is at finishing in close, whether that’s converting a one-timer or getting dirty goals in front by being smart enough to get to the right spots. The idea that he’s slashing through the crease to score is, to me, is not based on anything I’ve seen and something Cullen is better at.
I also think you’re underestimating Cullen’s hands. That’s not to say he holds a significant edge (or any) over Sutter, but I think he is much more capable of making a move to beat a goalie or a defender, plus is a very cerebral player like Sutter.
Again, this is not about who is better to me. I think Sutter is the better fit for several reasons — age and salary being the two that jump off the page immediately — but the idea that it’s an absolute cake walk in most every category for Sutter in your eyes is, to me, painting things with Brandon-colored goggles.
Like I said before, in 10 years there’s little doubt in my mind that people will talk more about what Sutter has accomplished than what Cullen has to this point (tho being the best skater in a FInals Game 7 is tough to top), but all of that is speculative and, to this point, has not occurred in reality.
by Cory Lavalette on Jul 14, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sutter v. Cullen
Cory, I suggest you take a look at the Hurricanes home game against the Thrashers that took place on November 27, 2009.
That game is a good demonstration of Cullen’s play as well as Sutter’s play. Cullen’s goal occurred 18:25 in the second. He takes a great pass from Kostopoulos and scored a fantastic short-handed goal. He also missed several excellent scoring opportunities in the same game.
I completely disagree with your statement that bq. The idea that he’s slashing through the crease to score is, to me, is not based on anything I’ve seen and something Cullen is better at.
I would ask that you reference me to any game in which Cullen scored by slashing through the crease. In 2009-2010, I didn’t see that occur one time. From the videos of games I’ve watched, Cullen had many, many opportunities to score by slashing through the crease, but he was highly unsuccessful at doing so. I also strongly disagree with you statement that Cullen is cerebral. My observation is that Cullen turned over the puck many times when he lost the puck as he tried to skate the puck through defenders when he had open passing lanes.
I put creativity in the category of elusiveness and therefore gave the edge to Cullen. I do not think Cullen has proven himself to be significantly more versatile than Sutter; and I wonder what specific athletic skills you consider Cullen to possess that Sutter does not.
I agree that Sutter excels at anticipating the puck and is particularly adept in close putting pucks into the net and at finishing on one-timer shots. I would say that Cullen in this past and this year in particular did not excel in those areas at all. Cullen’s short-handed goal in the Thrashers game on 11/27/2009 is where he excelled – getting open space and putting the puck in the net one on one with the goalie.
I also completely disagree that Cullen is a better passer than Sutter; and I wonder if you have any specific game and play you have in mind as demonstrating that conclusion. Your conclusion about Cullen’s passing is vastly different from mine. I think Cullen’s passing was one of his least refined areas.
Given the minutes that Cullen was getting, it is surprising that he had only one power play goal through sixty games as a Hurricane. For a fast, elusive forward, I would expect a much, much better performance. Contrast Sutter who through 72 games and with far less time on power plays had five power play goals.
One thing I’ve found by reviewing videos of games is that many comments I read are based to a significant degree upon impressions from watching the game in real time. When I go back after the fact to look at the play, the things I see are quite different from those real time impressions.
I want to emphasize, I am not arguing that Cullen is a poor center. He is excellent and has earned his place in the NHL. What I do see is that there are gaps in his play and those gaps explain to me why he is a player who has played on a number of different teams. I also think his 2009-2010 year was one of his weaker seasons.
Your conclusion about Cullen’s passing is vastly different from mine. I think Cullen’s passing was one of his least refined areas.
You may be watching videos, but you’re not understanding what you’re watching if you’re reaching conclusions like this.
Perhaps so. If my conclusions are flawed, it should be a simple matter for you to reference a game from the 2009-2010 season in which Cullen’s passing skills manifested themselves.
Standard lawyer trick: shift the burden of proof whenever possible.
I keep asking you what your point is in all these huge manifestos, but let me remind you where we began.
We said Sutter needs to work on upping his assists, because we have lost the only center we had that was actually adept at distributing the puck to his wingers from the center of the ice. That was Cullen’s forte, moreso than scoring.
You’re not the only one with a DVR, you know. There’s not a goal that has been scored for us or against us that I have not slowed down and watched many times for at least a decade, including home games that I just watched live.
Guess all these NHL teams that keep hiring Cullen to do the very thing you say he’s poor at doing should consider hiring you for talent assessment instead.
Sheesh.
by Elsker on Jul 15, 2010 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Elsker, asking you for the factual basis for your stated opinion is the furthest thing from a trick there is. Nobody who watched Cullen a single game could conclude he is anything other than a talented center. The question is whether he is a center with more skill than Sutter. In my view, Sutter is far better suited for the second line center spot with the Hurricanes than Cullen in my opinion.
I disagree with your conclusions, stated without reference to any game in 2009-2010, that Cullen is an outstanding passer. I disagree with that conclusion based on what I’ve seen. I think Cullen’s strengths are his speed and creativity/elusiveness and his ability to work in open ice.
I think Cullen was one of those veterans to whom Maurice referred early in the 2009-2010 season during the losing streak when Maurice said, there are veterans with the Hurricanes who made it in the NHL through skill sets other than hitting; and now they are resisting the Hurricanes style of hitting to separate the puck.
When I read posts bemoaning the Hurricanes chances in 2010-2011, I wonder what factual basis they have for their conclusions. Similarly, when I read posts saying the loss of Cullen as the second line center will cause the Hurricanes to miss the playoffs, I wonder how a player who scores 12 goals in 60 games who was replaced by a player who scored 21 goals in 72 games, with fewer minutes in the top six, is so indispensable.
Cullen’s career is quite solid, but GMs in addition to Jim Rutherford have been willing to part with Cullen. Cullen is more of a journeyman performer than a player around whom franchises have been built.
So, if there are in fact some games from 2009-2010 that you had in mind when you stated that I was totally mistaken about Cullen’s skill sets, please tell me so I can go look at those games.
Similarly, when I read posts saying the loss of Cullen as the second line center will cause the Hurricanes to miss the playoffs,
Another standard trick…produce “quotes” out of thin air and attempt to pass them off as being fact.
Who in the heck said this?!?
Not Cory. Not me.
Again, hyperbole.
You’re the one flying in the face of conventional wisdom, AD, not us. So the burden of proof lies with you.
Please produce any evidence in support of your subjective opinions that Cory and I have questioned.
Again, this began as an assessment that we needed some assists out of a center since we were losing Cullen and Sutter’s a good candidate for that need.
I still think that’s the case. Sutter and/or Nash are candidates for replacing Cullen’s 28 assists per season over the past five seasons. Sutter’s 19 for us last season bodes well for growth in that direction.
Elsker, it is actually a fairly standard tactic among the expert witnesses I cross examine that they state an opinion and then when asked to give any factual basis for that opinion begin by attacking me for asking the question. This blog of course is not a courtroom and nobody is required to cite factual basis for any opinion they hold.
If you decide not to tell me what factual basis you have for stating that Cullen is a great passer and set up man that is your right. On the other hand, without being told any factual basis for your assertion, I will continue to believe my conclusion is accurate and that although Cullen has many, many talents, being a great set-up man at center is not one of his best skills.
I don’t think anyone said he’s a great setup man. But neither is Sutter. Or Staal.
by Cory Lavalette on Jul 15, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I searched this page for the phrases "great passer" and "great setup man..."
You were the only person to use them.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
One game's worth of a reference is pretty worthless in and of itself.
Hockey is a game (like most others) that is played in a season comprised of a large number of games. Your opinion of a single game in November (or whatever) really doesn’t mean much. And E is right, no single person has suggested that Cullen will be the difference between us making the playoffs or not. However, the difference between us having an adequate third center (a role Cullen would easily fill, at worst) and not may be.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I personally don’t think you can take one game and say “Look here! Sutter did this better than Cullen, therefore he’s better every night.”
Also, Cullen is one of the more versatile players in the game b/c of all the places you can put him on the ice: center, wing, power play point, PK (wing or center). In that sense he’s like Jokinen.
Also, I don’t know what you’re seeing with passing. Are you talking in-zone, offensive passes or exiting the zone passes? To me, one of Sutter’s weaknesses is his passing in the offensive zone. He is good at moving the puck up the ice from his own end, but those kind of passes don’t require the precision that it takes to set up a teammate when on the attack. Furthermore, he’s never been an above average passer at any level. I wouldn’t say Cullen necessarily is either, but he often times find ways in the off. zone to get the puck to teammates. He also gets in dirty areas and will take hits.
As for the PP — the Canes PP was terrible for most of the season, and much improved down the stretch. I’d say Cullen’s two PP goals in six playoff games (oh, and his eight points) shows he is a capable PP performer. He’s twice scored eight in a season, which is a significant output.
Finally, you keep coming back to Cullen playing in a lot of different places. Who knows how Sutter’s career is going to hash out (Maurice can say whatever he wants, but he has almost no say in where Sutter spends the next 15 years), but Cullen hasn’t had all that many spots for a guy who had to prove himself — the same number of teams as Ray Whitney, matter of fact. Gretzky played for four teams. Brett Hull five. Very few players that started their career in the pre-lockout era didn’t bounce around.
by Cory Lavalette on Jul 15, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cory,
Although citing to more than one game would be nice, having a cite to any game in the 2009-2010 season would at least be a start. Using Ray Whitney as comparable to Cullen is a fair comparison. Both Whitney and Cullen are fine players; but their careers are more on the side of well-traveled than as franchise players.
With regard to passing, I think Sutter does a better job of finding teammates from behind the net than Cullen, even with Sutter’s short amount of time in the NHL. I haven’t seen Sutter miss open players in his zone. I do recall him making some amazing centering passes from behind the net.
I would like somebody to cite a particular game in which Cullen’s passing was outstanding; and that was the issue being discussed: was Cullen’s strengths the area of passing to teammates. I didn’t see that area as a Cullen specialty. Nobody has given me even one game where Cullen showed himself to be a passer of great skill or a great set up man via passes to his teammates. I think Cullen does a great job of using his speed to put shots on net and then having his teammates put rebounds in for goals. How many times have we all heard that the Hurricanes needed to get more shots to the net to create rebounds? Cullen I thought did a good job with getting shots to the net.
On the other hand, one can watch Whitney, as an example see the Boston Bruin’s game at the RBC were Whitney undressed Chara and then gave a perfect assist to Sutter, and easily conclude Whitney is an amazing passer.
Again, I never said it was a specialty. But if Sutter is such a good passer — and far exceeding Cullen — in the zone, why is it not resulting in assists?
As for Cullen … he had a great pass vs. WSH on Staal’s goal in late December. His steal and pass to TK for a SHG vs. NSH was brilliant (an example of hockey IQ and precision passing). Give-and-go with Whitney (from behind the net, where you say he struggles) vs. NYR on Jan. 2. His pass to Jokinen vs. MTL Nov. 15. Another with Ottawa on March 20 (Spezza goal) from below the goal line.
A lot of his other primary assists show him stealing a puck to keep Carolina in the offensive zone, or him winning battles to get the puck to the front of the net.
by Cory Lavalette on Jul 15, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
You’re suggesting that an observer can watch one play and determine a player’s abilities? I’m literally chuckling at the notion.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
If Cullen's passing was so bad...
How did he so easily out-assist Sutter? Dumb, blind luck? And, by the way, Cullen was getting plenty of his PP time on the point, not up front, like Sutter was.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
You make a good point about category selection.
One looking to make the point that a particular player is superior will (perhaps subconsciously) naturally choose categories in which that player is superior.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I know neither of us will convince AD otherwise, but I’d do the same as you, Cory.
If we had both Cullen and Sutter, although I’m no Cullen fan and wear Sutter’s jersey, I would also have Cullen, the more dangerous passer, centering my second line wingers next season (at least for starters) and run Sutter’s third line as the traditional checking line that could score on breakaways.
Yes, Sutter’s overall career will be greater than Cullen’s, but that’s where I would apply the skill packages today.
Maurice's view of Sutter
I agree with Maurice’s view of Sutter. Maurice has said Sutter will be his shutdown center for the next 15 years.
I don’t think anyone’s knocking Sutter. I just, personally, think it’s a little early to say he’s better in every facet than Cullen, who has put together a solid 12-year career and will likely play 1,000 games and score 200 goals.
by Cory Lavalette on Jul 14, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Sutter will likely be traded or moved on later in his career. The Canes aren’t going to have the money to keep all there stars. Managing a team on pennies will always bring up great kids, train them but not be able to pay them once they make it big. Sutter sooner or later will be offered big $$ and move on.
Carolina Hurricanes! Your 2011 Stanley Cup Champions!
I disagree. First, one season does not a career make. Young Brandon has some time ahead to continue to prove himself (not that I have ANY doubt that he can) before I think he hits superstar status. Also, he still has some RFA years ahead of him, correct? Also, JR has never shown me that he’s not willing to pay for talent, especially for players that he considers to be part of his core. Nor do I think he’s shown a pattern of running a team on pennies. Weren’t we close to cap last year? IMO one year running a very tight budget does not a pattern make.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jul 14, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Great points.
You are correct. I’m just assuming this is a start to being a low budget team here on out ( with new owners soon to be annouced). But also the Canes are looking at some great talent coming up in the next few years that has not always been there. I hope I’m wrong but with someone with Sutters family background may not want to hang around the low budget teams (non-trad. markets).
Carolina Hurricanes! Your 2011 Stanley Cup Champions!
But neither is spending at floor, is it?
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jul 14, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Also, the term “Shut-down center” is generally not mentioned in the same sentence with “big money”. If he comes up on a contract year and scores something like 30 goals and 70 points while at the same time displaying the attributes of a shut-down center, then the big money will come and probably pull our Brandon away.
If he comes up on a contract year and scores something like 30 goals and 70 points while at the same time displaying the attributes of a shut-down center, then the big money will come and probably pull our Brandon away.
You just described Brind’Amour’s Selke trophy years:
2006: 31-39-70
2007: 26-56-82
Not sure what his compensation was in 2006, but the team held a $5.32M option for 2007 which was re-negotiated into the five-year deal that paid $4M instead.
I would be impressed if Brandon could get his assist numbers up this upcoming season. If he could score 20 goals and have 35 to 40 assist, while being our top defensive center; that would be a very good year for a 3rd year player.
Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!
by PackPride17 on Jul 14, 2010 9:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We could certainly stand to somehow discover a playmaker or two. Jokinen does it from the wing, but we need a center like Cullen was, who made whoever was his wings look good.
Most of our forwards are seemingly a natural shooter, but often end up passing out of “politeness” or something (:-D), instead of with deadly intense precision…because it’s what they do.
Mr. Nash intrigues in this aspect. And, yes, it would be good to see Sutter both dunking and dishing.
Keep ’em guessing, Brandon. Always guessing.
NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
“Maurice has said Sutter will be his shutdown center for the next 15 years.” If that happens, I’m going to have to find a new team!
Not Sutter being a shutdown center for 15 years, but if Mo is here for 15 more seasons; I don’t think I can handle that.
Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!
The start of last year is certainly evidence enough that momentum disappears.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Success and Failure for the Canes This Year
Bob, thanks for the reminder that the Canes play in a division and the other teams aren’t standing still.
The discussion above sounds as though different groups of fans are measuring success by different standards this year. Adding veteran depth is the sort of thing you do when you’re trying to win now. So is adding a proven secondary scorer. So some folks are measuring success this season in terms of the gold standard: wins and losses. How we rate in the division matters more if you think the Canes can win it.
Wins and losses aren’t the usual standard when you’re rebuilding, and last year’s Blackhawks weren’t built in a season. When rebuilding, you’ll probably measure success in terms of the amount of definite and impressive NHL-caliber talent that the Canes’ prospects show on the ice. The season will be a disaster if the young Canes bomb in the NHL or if next spring the Canes still don’t know what they have. Roaring success is for most of the prospects to play well in the NHL, the Canes to get a reasonable number of wins, and for the Canes to look like strong contenders in 2011-2012.
A third standard seems to combine the first two—to want to see new players proving themselves while also seeing the team turn into something special this year. I think “special” means winning now. That would be great, but it’s a tough standard of success when you’re rebuilding.
How do you define success for the 2010-2011 season? Are we all over the map, or is there a consensus here somewhere?
by curiouscanesfan on Jul 14, 2010 11:17 AM EDT reply actions
Was Wes Goldstein's "sideways" about this season?
From the intro, his column seems to be focused on how the teams will do this year. “Sideways” as a rating for the Canes’ off season seems reasonable from that perspective.
Goldstein talks about Florida’s draft choices but the presence of Thomas Vokoun and other unnamed additions to come seem to be what trends Florida up for this season. Goldstein also mentions Washington’s cap room (implying they’ll use some of it), Tampa Bay’s deep pockets, and Atlanta’s improvement in goal and additions from the Blackhawks’ cap crisis.
Goldstein notes that the Canes are going cheaper and doesn’t see adding Sanguinetti and Nash and resigning Corvo as taking the Canes to a higher level this year. At least, that’s how I’d interpret the column.
Perhaps if the column took a longer view, Rutherford would get better marks. That may depend on how long Goldstein thinks the Canes will be cheaper and how cheap they will be.
by curiouscanesfan on Jul 14, 2010 12:00 PM EDT reply actions
Yes, I think it's just a season preview column.
Early FA recap, draft review, one for each division, etc.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Sideways - I agree
I agree with the sideways assessment. I am disappointed with the resigning of Corvo also. I just hope he scores enough even strength goals to offset his lack of defense and his +- trend of the last three or so years. So far, Our defense is going to get pushed around this year if we do not get a real dman. We desperately need another experienced stay at home, physical, clear em out, stand em up dman before heading into next season….
Simon Gagné
I don’t know if you just see that news, but here in Quebec we just know that Simon Gagne are able to talk with other team.
That mean the Flyers are agree to trade Gagné for a good and less money prospect.
This guy cost 5,25 and JR doesn’t want to spend money at all. But in my dream, a guy like Gagné with Staal and Jussi complete a great first NHL line.
i know, it’s just a dream :)
Panthers
Does it seem like every year pundits say “oooo, look how improved the Panters are!” and every year they still stink a little?
Let me get this straight. The Panthers traded Booth and picked up another similar player for scoring. They have Thomas Vokoun and a great draft and that is the reason they are trending upward. The Carolina Hurricanes have a great draft including several trades for former number one draftees. The Canes have world-class players in Staal, Ward, Gleason, Pitkanen, Ruutu, and Jokinen should have been in the Olympics, too. Yet, Carolina is only trending sideways? I think the Panthers may become an extremely good team in a couple years but the same could be said of the Hurricanes. In fact, given the fact that the Canes’ prospects are a little more advanced than the Panthers’ draft picks, I think they should still have a little bit of an edge.
And we will all see how it plays out because the season will be starting in just a few months.
they traded Horton, not Booth.
For the record, Booth is def. one of my favorite players to watch.
by Cory Lavalette on Jul 14, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, meant Horton. Wasn’t he picked right after Staal?
by Chuck Burns on Jul 15, 2010 9:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A: They were worse than us last season. B: We had all of those players last year, and it still didn’t get us to the playoffs.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I like sideways
as in it wasn’t downwards…and when all is said and done,,,CBS doesn’t mean didly or squat to the canes over all…myself it seems it must have been a “slow” sports day or they had too much time on their hands …hehehe…not being ugly…but for me…it was a waste of time and space for them…catch yall later
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
That Checkers 3rd Sweater ROCKS !!!
well remember sutter
don’t discount our new recruits as sutter became our lead scorer at the end of the season. this jeff skinner could maybe help out sutter. i’m just not a staal fan. i simply think he is hugely overrated. i get he was injured but jesus. he has GOT to be scoring. sutter or someone will back him up. he HAS TO SCORE. we cannot win with no freaking goals.
Skinner and Nash
Jim Rutherford has an article at www.carolinahurricanes.com where he states both Skinner and Nash could make the team out of training camp.
Here’s the URL:
I am excited about the young forward prospects; and the way I read that article, other than Staal, Sutter, Ruutu, and Jokinen, any veteran forward could find himself on the trading block. I am interested in how Boychuk, Dalpe, and Bowman do at training camp. I think Boychuk and Bowman will win spots on the roster. I had thought Dalpe would also win a spot out of training camp, but the organization seems to be very, very impressed with Nash.
Skinner could be that scoring wing for Staal that many of us have wanted for years. I think the Hurricanes will pencil in Skinner, at minimum as the third line center.
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