TRADE PITKANEN
by Capt. Stinky on Jul 8, 2010 10:26 AM EDT
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Okay, so we brought Corvo back at a discount, and we're trying to trim more salary. If we were going to be cup contenders this year, I'd say keep both Pitkanen and Corvo, but since this is a rebuilding year (or two) why keep both? When it comes down to it, both are pretty much interchangeable; do we need two offensively minded d-men? Or do we need to start developing our young draftees on defense by giving them playing time? I'm thinking we keep Gleason/Corvo on the top pairing, have McBain/Babchuck on second, then Seringuetti (sp?) and Harrison as the third, with a lot more shuffling coming up from Charlotte. We could use the Pitkanen trade for a few draft picks/salary dump, or we could pick up a decent young scorer to compliment the second or third lines. Thoughts?
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Tthose defensive pairings are unbelievably terrible. As much as you hate Pitkanen, he is a legit top pairing defenseman. There are two proven Top 4 defensemen in your lineup along with two rookies, headcase Babchuk, and should-be-in-AHL Jay Harrison. Rebuilding does not mean purposely failing, which is what that defense accomplishes.
dude why is everyone so against Pitkanen. He had 6 goals and 40 assists!! That’s amazzzzzing!!!! he pretty much set up half our goals last year! compare his stats to the other defenseman last year on the canes, and you’ll realize what he means to this team.
by RU4RU on Jul 8, 2010 10:45 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Because he's going to be gone after this season.
We can’t afford him.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s already making $4.5M this season, so signing him for $5.5M would not be much of a raise and surely is able to be accomplished with Cole/Samsonov’s combined $5.8M coming off the books.
Regardless, trading Pitkanen now for something that could merely help us in the future is throwing the season away. We talk about all of our offensive defenseman, but Babchuk is slow and can’t move the puck, McBain has 14 games of NHL experience and Corvo had terrible production even when he was healthy. Not to mention that they are all right-handed. Pitkanen is by far the best puckmover on the team until someone proves otherwise.
First, he WON'T go for $5.5 mil.
Not unless he has a major injury. And, frankly, our self-imposed budgetary restrictions are pretty much throwing the season away as it is.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree. This guy is invaluable. Keep him and sign him to contract extension.
by FoxtrotSierra on Jul 8, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think they’re interchangeable, Pitkanen’s a far better defensemen and can play more minutes than Corvo. If we have the money then we should make it a priority to re-sign Pitkanen. He’s one of the best in the NHL, we would we trade him? On the flip side if we can’t afford him then trade him, we’d get a lot back. I just hope whatever the decision ends up being they come to it quickly, I’d hate for Pitkanen to walk away and we get nothing in return – Whitneyesque.
I think Pitkanen could be on the market once the Tomas Kaberle deals start heating back up.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
Bobby and a first? We may need to go to prison for robbery if they did that. .
-Cory- LETS GO CANES.
by truheelzfan44 on Jul 8, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t hate Bobby Ryan, but I think he’s as much a product of his line as he is a natural talent. That said, Eric Staal and Justin Skinner could be great replacements for Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry. I think he’s looking to cash in big time, which worries me.
Personally, if they do move Joni I would prefer it was for Marc Staal and a pick or prospect as opposed to Bobby Ryan. Marc Staal fills the more pressing need.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
+1
more d before scorers for now!
-Cory- LETS GO CANES.
by truheelzfan44 on Jul 8, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see why we would take back a forward in moving Joni, that’s a big whole to fill and a lot of minutes that have to be picked up. We’d need to take back someone that can play 20-25 min/game which is not a long list of available dmen. M.Staal would be a good option and would give us a defensive dmen that can eat up big minutes. FWIW I think B.Ryan’s overrated and his success has a lot more to do his linemates than his person ability, so he’ll probably get overpaid which is why I’d lean more towards M.Staal.
It is possible to get addicted to hockey.
What if they just made Joni a forward, and traded a couple prospects and a pick for Marc Staal. Joni is skilled enough, and would actually make a good defensive forward for the team.
Don't think they'd want those guys...
Unless, of course, they think they have a legit cup shot by the deadline.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure he'll attract some attention come the deadline.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been open to trading Pitkanen, but it’s by no means because I’m against him. I think he’s a very good player. I think because he’s a very good player he’s going to require a large contract to keep him here when he becomes a UFA after the upcoming season. I’m not so sure that management will be willing to pay that. Some have suggested he may offer a home town discount. That’s possible. Joni, like Corvo, seems to prefer the Raleigh market to the more mad house markets. That’s unfortunately an unknown.
If this team is going to have a salary close to the cap they cannot afford to let Joni leave and get nothing in return. Say what you want about the cost of acquisition being low (Cole originally, then Williams for Cole), the team cannot afford to get nothing out of Joni. To get nothing out of Whitney and then nothing out of Joni would take a lot of talent off of the team while bringing back nothing to replace it. It would put the team in a competitive disadvantage that in my mind would take at least two or three seasons to rectify if the only means of adding talent is the draft and value signings.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
…with a lot more shuffling coming up from Charlotte.
Ummmm. Who exactly is this defensive depth we have in Charlotte? Borer?
Not only is the thought of Sanguinetti and Harrison as a third pair scary (unless one’s goal is the #1 pick in the 2011 draft), but we just have no defensive depth at all right now, having just barely crawled into respectability with yesterday’s signing of Corvo.
Got depth in the system, thanks to some very recent drafts, but not NHL-ready. Most of the promising ones are still in college or juniors.
Joni also happens to be the sole left-handed shot among the offensive D-men, so let’s not be too hasty sending him out the door.
Plus, I think we’re fine on salary budget right now. Injuries and mid-season trades will take care of any minor excesses. JR seems comfortable where we are, which means PK must feel comfortable, too.
Fine on salary now, but what about next year when Sutter and Joni are due for new contracts? I also don’t know that JR or PK are comfortable with where the team is on a talent basis. Salary basis, fine, but I find if hard to believe they wouldn’t prefer more talent on the team.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
No Cole or Samsonov, for starters. That’s $5.8M that goes to their replacements and to any raises needed.
I do agree that we’re not quite there on talent. But, I think we’re going with what we have…in order to see what it is that we actually have.
Jussi will need a $1.5-2 million raise ($1.7 million to about $3-3.5 million) and Sutter will need a $2 million raise ($1.25 million to $3.25-3.5 million). Boychuk, Tlusty, Bowman, Osala, and Sanguinetti are all RFAs next offseason also. All in all, that $5.8 million is eaten up real quick (probably Larose’s $1.7 million also).
I think Joni could get $6 million from a desperate team in free agency, probably $5-5.5 from a serious Cup contender. He is better than Volchenkov, Gonchar (age), and Michalek value wise because he is a top-10 offensive D. They all got contracts in the $5-5.5 million range. I think we would have to be looking at spending to the Cap if we wanted to keep Joni and upgrade the team.
Cole not resigned ($3M salary/$2.9M cap hit saved). Samsonov not resigned ($2.8M salary/$2.533M cap hit saved). LaRose probably not resigned or signed for much less ($1.9M salary/$1.7M cap hit saved). Kaberle’s buyout comes off the books ($733K saved). That’s $8.433M in salary and $7.866 in cap hit that won’t be on the 2011/2012 books.
Jussi will probably be tendered an offer, but it will not be above $3M (at least not from the Canes). I really like him, but last season was a career year, he will probably come down a little. The Canes will probably offer him something like Erik Cole is making. Probably $2.8M to $3M.
Sutter will probably be inked to a 3 year extension (to take him through restricted free agency) in the neighborhood of $3M per.
Boychuk, Tlusty, Bowman, Osala, and Sanguinetti would probably only be offered the minimum raises unless they have a breakout year or something. So their raises would amount to around or less $1M combined. If some other team uses an offer sheet, then they could get more or we would get draft picks. But as we have seen, offer sheets are not used that often.
I think JR would offer Joni in the $5.5M per season range. So that would be a $1M increase. We need Joni because he is currently the only playmaking offensive defenseman. The other guys are more shooters than passers. And if they resigned Corvo to trade Joni, this organization is doomed. They are not comparable players in the least.
So recap; $8.4M comes off the books with 3 players and a buyout. Jussi, Sutter, and the kids get around $4.5M in raises. Joni gets a $1.5M raise. And we end up with $2.4M to pocket or put toward another player.
Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!
But what of all the guys with contract increases, too?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
But what of the likely cap increase? Yes, certain players will have increases and with the economy improving (even if only slowly), the cap ceiling and floor will increase. During the 09/10 season, which could be considered a depressed economy, the salary cap increase $2M. What will it be in 11/12?
Pitkanen needs to be kept or replaced with a suitable player. The only player on the roster that could even be considered a future replacement for Pitkanen is McBain. $5.5M or $5.75M would be fair and should be extended for the team’s only true quarterback and minutes eater.
Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!
by PackPride17 on Jul 8, 2010 8:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’d say that is pretty low-ball estimates for everyone. I’m guessing at least one or two of Boychuk, Tlusty, Bowman, Osala, or Sanguinetti break out and require a $1 million raise by themselves. I really, really doubt that Joni will make only $5.5 unless it is with a serious Cup contender (Pittsburgh for example). For us to keep him I think it will be more like $6-6.5 million minimum.
Because all of those kids are RFA’s, unless someone does an offer sheet, none will require a large increase. And since all currently make less than $1M, a 10% increase is less than $100K. Knowing how this organization works, JR is not going to offer any of the kids a huge increase based on one years performance. Hell, Jussi made less this past season than the one before and Tlusty signed a contract that was less than his previous one (although it was a one-way deal). Even ReCorvo signed for about $600K less than he was making last year. Joni could very well ask for more than $5.5M, but I don’t think he is greedy. You may not be a big fan of his, but no other player on this team could replace him currently.
Again, if they resigned Corvo to move Pitkanen, JR is a complete idiot. We simply need Pits!
Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!
by PackPride17 on Jul 8, 2010 8:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If Boychuk, Bowman, Tlusty, or Osala score 15-20 goals (very possible), they could be very much ripe for an offer sheet. If Sanguinetti shows he can be an offensive force it is the same situation.
I’m a huge fan of Pitkanen, his name is on the only jersey I own, however I realize that big name UFA Defensemen generally look for the biggest payday or a serious Cup contender and the Canes aren’t either. Pitkanen is in his prime, he is better than Michalek, Volchenkov, Martin, Gonchar, etc. I’d be very surprised if he didn’t get $6-7 million dollar offers consistent with his skill group. I really doubt Pitkanen will take a discount just because others on the team did. He will easily be one of the biggest name free agents available come July 1, 2011.
With the current roster, Bowman and Osala will not even get full time in the NHL, so I don’t think their goal totals will be too high. Boychuk could get to that point. I don’t think Tlusty gets there. Either way, offer sheets are not handed out like candy. And we have a chance to match any offer sheet or just get draft picks in return. Of those players you mentioned, I would be shocked to see raises that would exceed $1M combined.
Pitkanen is a somewhat sky, reserve person. I think he will expect a raise, but will take a discount for a place he is comfortable and a place where his friends play. I think $5.5M or $5.75M is reasonable and $6M is not out of possibility for a guy that literally plays half of the game.
Triple Gold Juice - It's Potent and Guaranteed to Help You Score!
by PackPride17 on Jul 8, 2010 9:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I hope they come up with the money to re-sign him too… But if history is any indicator, he will be going to a huge payday or a serious Cup contender. Look at this years big name UFA D, all of them swapped around. That is just how it works, ask Nashville.
by JussiJuice on Jul 9, 2010 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Boychuk and Tlusty have breakout seasons for any reason other than serious injuries to Staal AND Sutter, we make the playoffs. In such a case, I doubt we stay a cap-floor team next year.
by Chuck Burns on Jul 10, 2010 3:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
“….but what about next year when Sutter and Joni are due for new contracts?”
Im pretty sure management has thought of this already.
Okay, but what have they decided? They’ve acquired Sanguinetti and brought back Corvo. Both are offensive defensemen, like Joni (although Joni is more solid defensively than those two at this point in time). They’ve also brought back Babchuk. Now Babchuk could be a matter of good asset management, while Sanguinetti and Corvo were both good values. It might mean nothing and it might mean something.
However, I find it telling that JR hasn’t said anything about opening negotiations with Joni on an extension. JR doesn’t negotiate during the regular season, which I think is a valid choice in most cases. I don’t see him breaking that rule for Joni. That means if there is no deal in place before the season starts then there won’t be a new deal until after the season ends. Unless the Canes have a real good feeling about being able to re-sign Joni at that point in time they really have no choice but to trade him at the deadline and get back maximum value at that time. If Atlanta was willing to move Heatley and Kovalchuk when they were in a playoff hunt the Canes would have to be willing to do the same with Joni unless they were playing absolute lights out hockey.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
I think that mgmt identified the core of the team, Staal, Ward, Gleason, Ruutu, Pitkanen and won’t trade any of them as they are the essential pieces in this rebuild. I believe If it looks like this rebuild is going to take more time than JR anticipates, he may start selling off some of these pieces for picks (like Pitkanen). Pitkanen is a good defenseman and they are hard to find, JR knows that and won’t part with him unless necessary.
I still believe this team surprises to the upside. They will frustrate us with giving games away while they learn to win but I believe we will be pleasantly suprised. It can’t be worse than the first half of next season. There are many good character guys on this team (Staal, Ward, Gleason, Sutter, Ruutu, Pitkanen and others) and they will take responsibility to moving things in the right direction. Lets be patient.
I meant to write:
It can’t be worse than the first half of last season.
Sorry
by Canes Pucknut on Jul 8, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't call Pitkanen an "essential piece..."
When he’s only signed through this year.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s in the fourth year of a contract. At some point in every athlete’s career, they are in the last year of their contracts.
by Chuck Burns on Jul 10, 2010 3:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But if they're a part of your core...
You’ve got them signed for the duration of your team’s championship window, or you certainly should.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Since our championship window will not begin until ‘11-’12, at the earliest, that’s exactly what JR now has a chance to do, if they want to make Pitkanen part of that corps.
Would be a bit premature to have done so before we even get to the final year. Not sure I get your point.
Also, you can’t extend a players contract until they are in the final year of their existing deal as per the CBA. The earliest Joni could have signed an extension was July 1 of this summer. That said, if he was truly core wouldn’t the Canes already be working on an extension if they intended to keep him.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
Its the 11th day of July! Contract negotiations take time. JR could be working on an extension as we speak or he could be waiting on some financial information from PK. Knowing JR’s style, if we don’t have some announcement by the beginning of the season, then we can assume there is a good chance Pits will not be resigning with the Canes.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 11, 2010 1:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Does JR typically do this? I mean does he typically extend contracts before they are expiring? I know he did with Staal, but I thought as a rule he did not. And I thought he went so far as to say in one of his recent interviews that he would not be entertaining that approach in the off-season for any of the players whose contracts are expiring at the end of next season.
I could be wrong in my understanding, but I wouldn’t assume that JR isn’t interested in keeping Pitkanen just because he doesn’t extend him this off-season.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jul 11, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
If we ended up being Sellers at the deadline and Pitkanen was still not signed… Would you still keep him even if it meant losing him for nothing? Sounds pretty risky to me, I hope they lock him up before the season but if not I think they need to entertain offers.
Pits could always just pull a Corvo anyway and come back after being traded anyway.
My point had nothing to do with the trade deadline. I was referring to extending him this off-season. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jul 11, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess nobody has really mentioned...
That we could still get something by trading his negotiating rights after the season, but we’d lose a lot of his potential value by waiting. As for Corvo, he came back because nobody else really wanted him. That will not be the case with Pitkanen.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with the last part… If Pits isn’t signed by the beginning of the year, I think we can pretty much conclude he is gone. Personally I hope he is re-signed very long term (6-8 years at $5.5 million a year would be nice), but knowing the Canes I wouldn’t be totally surprised if he priced himself out of their range.
Losing Pitkanen would be a hard pill to swallow, no doubt… But maybe McBain will emerge as a premier top-pairing offensive D this year. I think he has the talent and I wouldn’t be fully surprised if the Canes were willing to play the waiting game and see themselves. Babchuk will also improve his game, remember that he was a pretty suitable top-4 D playing next to Pitkanen in our most successful year in recent history. I think Babs has 2nd pairing potential, especially if he can improve his defensive game.
Yet another wild-card is Sanguinetti who is supposed to be a future top-4 premier offensive D. He is far more offensive minded than defensive, obviously we haven’t seen him at the NHL level and it is too early to tell but I’m guessing we get a good read this season to see if he can make it. Then take into account we have Dumoulin (who may even be ready after this year), Faulk (a very offensive player), Alt, and Biega also in the pipeline… Who knows if the Canes would want to commit to Pitkanen long-term. Lots to consider, that’s for sure.
A desdline to sign a deal certainly doesn't mean you can't start negotiating it.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Pitkanen Stays
Jim Rutherford has been quoted many different times saying that Pitkanen was an untouchable, a core team member, etc. The idea Jim Rutherford spent years trying to get Pitkanen, saw Pitkanen play 28 minutes to 30 minutes a game, saw the team dissemble a number of games when Pitkanen was hurt, but won’t re-sign him strikes me as improbable in the highest degree. Pitkanen has his unique set of skill sets and is still developing. He has frightening potential. I suppose one could theorize Jim Rutherford receiving an offer for Pitkanen so enticing that he couldn’t say no, but I don’t see that scenario occurring – unless some GM becomes self-delusional like Burke and offers the moon for Pitkanen like Burke did for Kessel.
Words vs. Deeds
Words are nice, but deeds are what matters. With both Staal and Ward when it was coming to a similar time in their contracts as Joni is at now JR had already mentioned that it was his priority to get them signed to extensions. He then went out and did it. For all this talk of Joni being a core member of the team there hasn’t been talk of an extension yet. Perhaps JR is waiting on a new part/full owner, but that’s a dangerous game. The closer Joni gets to free agency the easier it is to take a look at other teams. I don’t think the Canes can afford to lose Joni for nothing and as much as JR doesn’t want to trade him he may have to trade him to avoid losing him the same way he lost Ray Whitney.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
This.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Desire to keep him around won't create dollars for the payroll.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I say keep Pits, but next year is his last contract year. Depending on how well we do, it may be best to move him at the deadline for some picks/prospects. I’d like to be a contender next season and we have cap space to add pieces if need be, but if we’re not in a good position for a playoff run, bye bye Pits. Our back end looks good, IMO, we have 3 proven top-4 guys, with some room to switch places around. If McBain continues to improve that’s 4, bam, done. If Sanguinetti is ready for some more responsibility, why not trade Pits? It should all come down to where we are in February next year.
I cannot justify trading a guy who plays damn well more minutes than any other player in the league nearly per game, who is pretty good defensively, and is also a good point getter. He is no Nicklas Lindstrom, but the guy is as good as it gets for what he brings to the table.
Hell no to trading him, and hell yes to JR pulling out the stops to try and keep him here.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
My guess is that Jim Rutherford is simply too wise and experienced to trade Pitkanen. It is virtually impossible to replace a talent like Pitkanen and during some portions of last season he was playing 30 minutes a game. When Pitkanen was out of the lineup last season, things went downhill fast. I could be wrong; but I just don’t see Jim Rutherford making that deal and trading Pitkanen.
But do you see him signing Pitkanen to a five year $30 million dollar deal? If you don’t you have to consider the very real possibility that Joni could walk and the Canes get nothing.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
I think we might go 4-5 years at $5.5 million a year. That’s better than Paul Martin received from Pittsburgh.
by Chuck Burns on Jul 8, 2010 3:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That’s one of the reasons I went for $6 million per. I think Joni is slightly better than Martin, but that could be home time bias and anti-Jersey Bias. Either way, 5 years 5.5 per is still $27.5 million total. Not insignificant, but not that much either.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
And Pitkanen is a hell of a lot better than Martin.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Jim Rutherford will make a long term commitment to Pitkanen. Whether it is $5.5 million, $5.75 million, or increasing to $6 million, the defense is moving toward tall and fast. It was obvious the Hurricanes were much less of a threat without Pitkanen. I would not be shocked to see an extension signed if the new minority share sales goes through before tthe season begins.
like i've said before- CRACK KILLS
if we ever trade pitkanen – we’ll just be looking for another pitkanen
so please please please stop with this nonsense.
And how is that different...
From having to look for one next offseason when we can’t afford him? Keeping him around to play the end of the season is what would be nonsense.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
My little suggestion
If the Canes have to trade pitkanen, i think they have to trade with a team was selected a Dmen in the first round 2010 draft. And of course the first round pick for 2011. This is too expensive? If is not, this my option!
1- LAK: Derek Forbort + 1st choice 2011 (type of Dmen the Canes need) but LAK no need anymore Dmen like Pitkanen (Doughty and jonhson).
2- Ana: Cam Fowler + 1st (not sure without Niedermayer, he will be the next one for this team
3- Pho: Gromley + 1st. (good option too) but i don’t know about their situation (dmen) (Aucoin,Yandle, Jovanoski, Morris), this is enough?
i had to laugh at first
as my first was " What’s Capt. Stinky’ up to this time?? first it’s Mo & now the pits must go…my first reaction was Capt, Stinky must go…but after reading what he and the rest have said…Ol Stinky isn’t so bad…just too quick on the old injector seat lever for my tastes personally…but i have to admit…he’s gotten all of us to stop and to think…now is that such a terrible thing ?
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
That Checkers 3rd Sweater ROCKS !!!
We need
more Finns so Pitkanen will want to stay!! Packpride is right with the math. Cole and Samsonov will be gone by the end of next season ( hopefully sooner) and that will free up some funds. LaRose will either have a great season and price himself off the team, or have a so-so season and either be re-signed for less or be allowed to move on. Sutter will be a priority, and Jussi will be variable priority depending on how the youth express from Charlotte works out and if he can have another great year. I think Kostopolus is also UFA after next year as well. There will be money to re-sign him. Oh and if Babychuk doesn’t work out there is another million plus in the kitty.
Here’s a good question to ask in regards to trading Pitkanen:
If you had to rate the Canes players in terms of importance to on-ice performance, who would be the top 5 and what would their order be?
Many players missed time last year, so we have something to base it off of. Before last season, I would have said Cam was #1, but we played alright in his absence. Here is how I would rank them and remember I am a Staal fan.
1. Pitkanen
2. Staal
3. Gleason
4. Cam
5. Sutter
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by PackPride17 on Jul 8, 2010 8:16 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I would wait until the deadline
If the Canes faulter this year then Joni could be a hot player to be had at the trade deadline should we have a true rebuilding year. Personally I think Joni is way overpaided for what he brings to the table, solid enough defensively but offers nothing offensively as far as goal scoring.
Still though I would wait to trade him until the deadline, lets not close the book or hit the paniac button on this season just yet.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jul 8, 2010 9:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
His game is comparable to Tomas Kaberle and Scott Neidermayer. Pits averaged more PPG than both players and both players made more than Pits last year.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 8, 2010 9:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
where is that "STRONGLY DISLIKE" buttton?!?!?
its a shame that some don’t even realize what a great player we have in Pits…(lowering and shaking of head)
RAKASTAN SUOMEN!!
If people didn't think he was good...
They wouldn’t want to trade him. We’d know we wouldn’t get anything back for him. But trying to keep a $7 million defenseman on a cap floor team which has no aspirations of winning the Cup is silly. We’re going to lose him anyway, so we might as well gain something from it.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
wow, how do I also get to live in a world where ALL of my assumptions are right – sounds like a fun place :D
RAKASTAN SUOMEN!!
It's within your reach...
Just gotta grab a hold.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
So everybody likes Pitkanen...
…but about half say we should trade him for salary reasons. Sounds about right for “As the ’Caniac Nation Turns” where we have good, solid players but always have to look at trading for salary. oh well…
We must trade Pitkanen! Because a puck-moving defenseman with a quirky personality that doesn’t exactly fit in everywhere is going to only follow the money and would never consider a bit of a home town discount to say with the Hurricanes.
Oh wait…
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
that's funny
Throughout all this speculation and crazy talk we never ever consider what the player wants or feels.
Maybe he’s not as greedy as we think he is maybe this could be HIS best fit!
what a concept.
Just like fan-favorite and Raleigh enthusiast Ray Whitney right?
by JussiJuice on Jul 9, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LTD, are you saying that it would take a home town discount from Joni for him to stay?
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
No. First and foremost I am trying to be funny.
I do however believe that at his talent level, in the future, other teams may be willing to offer him more than we could and he may have to weigh that money against other benefits. Some feel he would automatically make a decision to follow the money. Personally I don’t subscribe to that belief.
Also, some folks are of the opinion that he gave us a little bit of a hometown discount on his first contract here. I do believe that. I also believe that barring very dire circumstances our GM will be willing to pay him well to keep him here.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jul 9, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not just his decision...
If a player took an offer that was 50% of his highest, he’d catch all kinds of hell from the players’ union, and his agent certainly won’t encourage him to take a deal that would cut him out of a significant amount of profit.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
But we are not asking him to take
a 50% pay cut. If JR went to him, and offered Pitkanen a 50% pay cut, then
1. Pitkanen would laugh before realizing JR was serious, then curse at him in Finnish with much vehemence
2. JR would be fired on the spot
We are asking him to take a pay cut of (i would guess) only 250,000 to 500,000, BASED ON
The prices that free agent defensmen got this year- Paul Martin got 5.5 million.
Now, we know that Paul Martin was offered more money by several teams, so lets say that he was offered 6.5 mil max.
We also know that he balked at one of the more lucrative contracts because of who was offering it; the New York Islanders. Specifically, his agent tweeted that when Martin found out they were playing in that dump of an arena for the next five years at least, he walked immediately. This means that players WILL infact take considerations other than money into their long term contracts. For example, is the area nice? Do my friends play here? Is the ownership wiling to spend to get better? Are they Cup contenders?
I could see Pitkanen taking a discount. I don’t know how he was liked in Philly, but in Edmonton, he was the loner, the wierdo. He was the whipping boy of the sheeple in Edmonton, who were all convinced that he was the worst defensman EVER! The area is nice and his lifelong friends play here.
I could also see him leaving the area. I don’t know what the FA market would look like for defensman, so if it is any worse than this year, he could easily do what Kovalchuk is doing now; put teams against each other and go to the highest bidder.
But we don’t know what he will do. We have to take both sides into account. But assuming he will not resign, that he will walk for a suitcase for cash at the first opportunity and that in no way, shape or form will the Canes match or try to match that offer is counterproductive. By the same token, assuming he will stay will be Buffalo circa 2008 all over again. And i would rather not repeat that, as i like trash talking the Buffalo natives for the foolishness of their management.
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jul 9, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Take the last sentence of Paragraph 4, and put it as the 2nd sentence of paragraph 5. My mistake
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jul 9, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I think one thing that is going against us that should be considered is that, especially with Euro players, Raleigh really isn’t Joni’s home. I’m sure he goes back to Finland every break he gets, unfortunately for us I doubt he has that much NC pride.
Another thing that could go against us is that most people who follow the NHL (including most here) realize the Canes will not be a serious Playoff team next. Very, very rarely do top named free agents stick with their teams if they are barely able to even make the playoffs. You mentioned that with Martin, it happened with Michalek and Volchenkov also. They take paycuts to go to serious Cup contenders because they want to win.
I agree
there are many factors going for Joni staying here, but there are more that would suggest he may leave. At this point, neither I nor anyone has the fainest idea what Joni will do. Which is why JR must begin talking to Joni ASAP. Get a feel of what he wants from his hockey career, and what the Canes will have to do to make him consider staying.
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jul 9, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
JR needs to negotiate with Pitkanen and his agent before the season starts. If they can work out a 3 or 4 year deal worth somewhere in the $5.5M or $6M per season range, go ahead and sign him up. If not, JR needs to break from his norm and work on a deal during the season. If a deal cannot be reached, then trade him at the deadline. Pitkanen is far to valuable in the NHL for a team like the Canes to just let him go for nothing.
I feel he is needed here and would take a small discount to stay here. But if negotiations don’t go well, at least get something for him. He is worth at minimum a 1st round pick and could bring back more.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 9, 2010 7:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
To those who have meet Pitkanen
In negotiations with JR, if JR asked him “Do you want to play here?”, would he
A. Lie and say yes to spare feelings/ reputation or
B. Say yes/ no, trade me
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jul 9, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I have never met the man, but from what I know of him; I would say option C, he would just stare at JR then say something no one would understand.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 9, 2010 7:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I know I have an ear for understanding English spoken with an accent, but I’ve never had a problem understanding Joni when he talks.
"The increase in pain is way beyond what you would expect a person to play with," said coach Paul Maurice. "Unfortunately it’s even beyond what Tim Gleason can play with, because he can play with just about anything."
Pitkanen and Personality
For what it is worth, Pitkanen sat with my wife, my son, our legal assistant, and me at last season’s Hurricanes luncheon. He is quite shy, but is extremely polite and has a very dry but hilarious sense of humor. We all found him extremely likable and it was clear he was really disappointed that his knee had been injured.
I think he intentionally drives opposing players slightly crazy with his stare at them as if they are from Mars routine.
Cyn,
You know I was joking around?
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 12:27 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’ve heard multiple people comment they can’t understand Joni, so it was kind of hard to tell if you were joking. No worries.
"The increase in pain is way beyond what you would expect a person to play with," said coach Paul Maurice. "Unfortunately it’s even beyond what Tim Gleason can play with, because he can play with just about anything."
I agree with that course of action, personally I think the Canes should spend whatever it takes to keep him (but I also think we they need to find a 1st line winger)… However if our history with free agents is any indication, I just can’t believe that JR is going to hand him the pile of money he deserves and that other teams will be more than willing to give him (at least not easily).
He is far, far too valuable to allow him to walk for nothing. I’m guessing he would be worth a 1st and a elite-level prospect. There is a pretty good UFA D class next year (Chara, Kaberle, Markov, Ehrhoff, Pitkanen, etc.) and Pitkanen will be the cream of the crop (based on skill, age, attitude). He will demand a ton of money.
I just don’t think he is all about the money. I think he feels comfortable here, especially with the other Finns and that could very well play into his decision.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 9, 2010 7:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think everybody is about the money. He earned it, played his way through some damn hard times and is in the prime of his career. He could be living off this money the rest of his life, it is a huge decision to make (just ask Ray Whitney).
Maybe the best way to approach it would be to sign Jussi and hope he can convince Pitkanen to stay… But as of now BOTH could be signed by a different team in Unrestricted Free Agency who values that chemistry.
I think the Canes may have the upper-hand. All of your points are good, but I would never underestimate the value of money (Nor the Canes cheapness). Also historical precedence would indicate he is as good as gone (Big name UFA’s on non-Cup teams).
I disagree completely with the statement “everybody is about the money.”. Of course people need money to live and do other things, but millions of people (NHL players, other sport professional, and regular people) turn down more money for comfort reasons. Take LeBron as a prime example. I have been offered other jobs with more money and I have chosen to stay where I’m at because of my comfort level and other potential opportunities. I’ve also turned down jobs with a lot more money because they would have required me to move from a city that a love.
Pitkanen could be about the money, but I don’t think that will be his deciding factor. I don’t think he wants to be in a high pressure city and that would limited his options if he is chasing the almighty dollar. You could be correct, but I don’t believe he is as good as gone as you think.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 9, 2010 8:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Lebron may be a bad example… He went to the Heat to win championships. No one is coming to the Canes because they are a powerhouse future champion team. I agree with that, players turn down money all the time to play on Championship teams. Look at Michalek, Volchenkov, Martin, etc. this year. Unfortunately I doubt that is a reason Pits would stay with us.
Comfortability is nice, but keep in mind his home is Finland. He isn’t Eric Staal who spends his offseasons and seasons in Raleigh, most Euro players go back “home” after the season ends.
Some players don’t like high pressure cities, some love the spotlight. Some players don’t like to be overworked playing 30 minutes a night, others wouldn’t have it any other way. Some would feel more comfortable knowing there are 2-3 all-stars around them to bail them out, some like taking charge. My guess is as good as anyone’s what type Pitkanen is, so I base my opinion around the known facts.
I will say that if I was Pitkanen, I’m cashing in on the hard work I put in over the past few years and letting the offers roll in. I can’t see why he would re-sign with the Canes without entertaining other offers. And at that point, I think the Canes are already taking a huge gamble.
I’m a little discouraged JR hasn’t even mentioned the subject, locking up a guy like Pitkanen usually comes up the Summer BEFORE he goes to UFA. If he isn’t signed by the time next season comes the Canes are seriously playing with fire.
If Pitkanen was on the fence about re-signing come trade deadline time, what would you do if you were JR? It is a huge risk to lose him for nothing.
When it comes to an extension, I'd say the lack of JR on the record is a GOOD thing.
Very few players (or GMs, for that matter) prefer to negotiate in the media. I’d think that particularly about a quiet guy like Joni.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
So, other than knowing that JR isn’t going to spend to the cap in 2010-11, exactly what are all of the other “known facts”?
Also, I don’t think Eric Staal spends his off-seasons in Raleigh either (but I’ll admit that I could be wrong and that could be a “known fact”).
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Jul 9, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Known Facts:
1) Canes were a bottom-10 team last year
2) Canes, by most every account, look to be a borderline Playoff team this year at best
3) Big name free agents almost never stay with their bottom-half of the NHL budget teams. Truly, find me an example… I think you will have a hard time.
4) Pitkanen is a 26 year old D in the prime of his career, easily a top-10 offensive D in the whole NHL.
5) The Canes can’t compete with the other 29 teams in the NHL in willingness to spend or ability to be a Cup contending team
6) Even if he did want to re-sign with the Canes, do you honestly think he wouldn’t at LEAST test the water in UFA to see his worth? His Agent would be utterly stupid not to advise Pits to do so.
We are both arguing things neither know as facts. I assume things are still up in the air. I think their is the possibility he is and is not with the Canes after next season. You assume that their is almost no way he remains with the team. Neither of us know what is in his head and heart or JR’s.
I just think that things could still happen, so I don’t think he is as good as gone at this moment in time. If JR had already started negotiations and then called it off, then I would see where your beliefs would be more accurate. But as of right now, there is still the possibility that Pitkanen is still a Cane in 11/12.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 9, 2010 9:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t think he is 100% gone… I think the Canes would be able to retain him at about $6.5 million a year short term (2-4 years) or $5.5-6 million long term (6-8 years). I agree with you in that I think he would rather stay here if we offered the same deal, my only doubts come from the Canes consistent cheapness.
Personally, I’d love to see him signed at $5.5 for 6 or 7 years… But that really doesn’t fit in with a budget team. The Canes are going to have to be willing to spend some serious money if they want to keep Pits around next offseason. I hope, just like everyone, that our Cap Floor budget isn’t permanent… But I won’t get my hopes up.
Also, I don’t think Eric Staal spends his off-seasons in Raleigh either…
Only data point I can add is that during Jared’s video interview he was asked if he was staying with his brother, and Jared said “No, actually he’s back home.”
Someone teasingly asked him “What, you don’t have a key?” and he said “Not yet.” :-D
Then again...
LeBron’s worst-case scenario was upwards of $80 million or so. Pitkanen will be lucky to see his deal’s total value get much past $35 mil.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny that you mention Martin left the Devils for a chance to win.
He’s never missed the playoffs, and the Devils haven’t as a team since ’98.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
And they have won the Cup how many times? He may have never missed the Playoffs, but he has also never been to the Eastern Conference Finals. I’d definitely say leaving NJ to go to Pittsburgh is going to a better team.
I understand that.
I’m just saying that even being on a consistent winning team is not even enough, and the ‘Canes of late can’t even claim that. We’re on the same page about this.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Pitkanen is a HELL of a lot better than Martin.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
There's a big difference between an also-ran like Corvo and a top-of-the-market guy like Pitkanen.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I Disagree. Two different type of players. Corvo played against the top lines every night he was in Raleigh. Corvo is less of a play maker but has the abiltiy to score more goals. One has a bomb of a shot the other is very creative in his play. We got a steal in what we are paying for Corvo. Paying 5 or 6 milion for Pits will be a bad decision. He will be the new whipping boy if we over pay for him.
IMO, paying 5-6 million to Pitkanen is a bargain.
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jul 10, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You are nuts… Corvo sat in free agency because not many teams wanted him. Pitkanen would be snapped up in the first hour or two of Unrestricted Free Agency. Pits is much better than Martin, Volchenkov, Gonchar, and Michalek… And they went fast for big money or to big Cup contenders.
by JussiJuice on Jul 10, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What are you disagreeing with, exactly?
My statement was about willingness to take a pay cut. Corvo did because there was little to no interest from anybody else. That will not be the case with Pits.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Sadly, whenever I read the title of this post, the harmony to “Blame Canada” from South Park plays in my mind.
"...they will not force us...they will stop degrading us...they will not control us...we will be victorious..."
Mah blog.
A Big Assumption
In regards to trying to resign Pitkanen, I looked on capgeek the salaries of the 11/12 potential Canes. I have made a lot of assumptions, but I wouldn’t consider them too far-fetched. Here is the potential 11/12 lineup with actual salaries.
Boychuk(787K)-Staal(7.75M)-Skinner(900K)
Ruutu(4.4M)-Sutter(3.25M)-Dalpe(687K)
Bowman(650K)-Jokinen(2.8M)-Osala(863K)
Tlusty(550K)-Nash(875K)-Samson(525K)
Matsumoto(525K)
Pitkanen(6.5M)-McBain(735K)
Gleason(3.5M)-Corvo(2.5M)
UFA-Sanguinetti(841K)
Borer(550K)
Ward(6.3M)-Peters(550K)
I assume that Skinner and Nash sign entry-level deals. Sutter, Tlusty, Osala, Sanguinetti, and Borer are our RFA’s. I assume JR signs Sutter to a 3 year deal @ $3.25 per season. The other RFA’s are offered QC’s, 10% raises. Cole, Samsonov, LaRose, Babchuk, and TK are either not resigned or are traded. The Canes would be paying the final year of Brind’Amour’s buyout. Jussi and Joni would be the only UFA’s the Canes resign. Jussi is offered a similar deal to the one Cole currently has. Joni is offered a 4 or 5 year deal worth $6.5M a season.
That would be 21 players (needing to sign 1 defenseman for a full roster) and Rod’s buyout at $47.038 million. That would probably be about $2 or $3 million above the cap floor based on a similar cap increase to this current season.
If the Canes do find a minority owner, the Canes shouldn’t have a problem signing him at all. If they don’t, this is still a pretty low payroll. I’m not saying Pits is definitely signed, but its financially possible to fit an increase to $6.5M or even $7M into a limited payroll.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 12:14 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Next Season and Samsonov, Cole, Kostopoulos, Babchuk, and LaRose
bq.Cole, Samsonov, LaRose, Babchuk, and TK are either not resigned or are traded. bq.
For some time, it seemed pretty obvious that the Hurricanes were going to have to trade or not re-sign Samsonov, Kostopoulos and either Cole or LaRose. Increasingly, LaRose is on the hot-seat, I think; but we all really want him to prevail and succeed. Babchuk is also on the hot seat and easily could be a player that gets traded depending on how this season goes for him and whether he wants to stay a Hurricanes.
The better Skinner and Nash play the greater the chance that Jim Rutherford decides to save the money by going with more youth at forwards. Watching two days of conditioning camp showed me there were some very talented new prospects in the system. I wouldn’t count Jared Staal out of the mix in 2011-2012. Skinner may well be a 2011-2012 Hurricanes. Nash almost certainly will be a Hurricane in 2011-2012 based on what I read about him and what I’ve seen.
LaRose is such a special person, it’s conceivable Jim Rutherford will package a prospect in a trade to keep LaRose. Much of that depends on how 2010-2011 goes for LaRose, I think.
I am a big LaRose fan, as AD knows, and would love to see him remain with the Canes. He is very versatile and can play almost anywhere, which is needed because injuries happen during the season. But I realize it is very likely that this is his last season in Carolina. The only way he stays is for him to take less money and for the Canes to spend closer to their normal cap percentage. If he would take $1.25M, he could potentially remain with the Canes on the 4th line, PK, and fill-in duty. I find that very unlikely and some team will pay more for his services.
That is why I hope Tlusty can become the new Chad with a little more skill. I know a lot of you expect more from Tlusty than Chad 2, but I would be very happy if he becomes that type of player.
I think TK will be traded at some point because of his salary increase and he would be sought after as a key penalty killer and grit guy. We could also use those things, but I think JR will want to open up space on the 4th line for one of the kids and could save money by having say Samson in that position.
I do still believe that both Dalpe and Skinner are moved to wings, which then become very congested with young players/prospects. I think this will lead to 1 or 2 of the kids also being moved to upgrade another position with a more experienced player. We have so many potential 9 prospects and only so many open spots that it is the most logical move.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 12:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Dalpe/Staal/Skinner
PackPride17, what is your thought on whether at some point, whether 2011-2012 for example, a first line of Dalpe/Staal/Skinner? Is that realistic in your view or is it overly optimistic?
Also, what happens if Skinner is too good a center to move to wing?
Just exploring your thoughts further, if Skinner is too good at center to move to wing, then what would you ultimately think about Dalpe/Sutter/Staal followed by a second line of Jokinen/Skinner/Ruutu, for example?
As much as I like Sutter, I don’t think he is a 1st line player. And again, I think Staal is better at center than wing.
But in most scenarios I come up with, Boychuk ends up outside of the top 6. That is why I believe he should be traded along with something for a playmaking winger that will improve that Staal-Skinner or even Staal-Dalpe 1st line.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 1:28 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It will be interesting to see which players wind up on the first line and the second line. I am guessing that Jim Rutherford will be delighted to have such good choices and will keep all four lines deep in talent. Who the players are that wind up in the top six, top nine, and top twelve at forward will be fascinating to see.
There’s no doubt that Dalpe and Skinner are very talented. I continue to believe the Hurricanes organization will stick with Boychuk; but who knows? It’s anybody’s guess at this point; but all the choices are good choices.
I think Skinner absolutely belongs on the wing.
He hasn’t really shown the playmaking proficiency I’d want out of a top-six center.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Kind of funny considering Staal and Sutter, whom most would think are our top 2 Centers of the future, really aren’t playmakers at all. I agree with your sentiment though, I’d rather have a Nicklas Backstrom any day over Staal.
I don't think Staal is a bad playmaker.
He’s pretty consistently racked up 40+ assists on an annual basis despite never really playing with an All-Star scorer on his wing.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d call Eric Staal a goal scoring power forward long before I’d call him a traditional playmaking Center… Just my opinion though.
No, I agree with that assessment.
Just saying I think he could rack up plenty of assists next to a solid goal-scorer.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Skinner was a great choice for an eventual winger for Staal (we all hope), but he could do with another high-profile winger. If Doumulin was ready after next season and McBain really stepped up next year into an offensive role (even if Babchuk broke out…), I’d even go as far as saying I’d rather them spend the $6 million they would have spent on Pitkanen on a 1st line Winger/Center.
After all, wouldn’t it be interesting to Staal lining up next to Joe Thornton and Jeff Skinner to start the 2011-2012 season?
I would hope the Canes stay far away from Joe Thornton. He’s a good player, but not what the Canes need.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 3:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
One of the most prolific Playmakers of all time… Not what the Canes need? Who could possibly make Staal better than Thornton? I bring him up because he is one of the only big name UFA forwards next year, but why the dislike?
I think Hemsky would be better. It would not displace Staal from the center position, where he is more free to roam the ice and would be cheaper. Hemsky is an excellent playmaker that could also score some goals.
And we do not sign other teams unrestricted free agents, at least not high caliber players. The only ways we will score that type of player is through the draft or trade.
I’m not a big fan of Thornton because he seems to come up short when the pressure is on. He played ok during the playoffs this year, but he was far from the best Shark on the ice. For a player of his abilities, he is disappointing when it matters most.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 3:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Eastern conference and Western conference hockey is pretty different. Hemsky is alright but his injuries concern me greatly. He has never once played a full season, the past 4 seasons he has missed at least 10 games and missed 60 games last year. Also consider his Cap hit is only $4.1 million, but he is actually paid $4.5 million this year and $5 million next year
There are way to many choices and options if we go the trade route to try to guess at… I agree, we probably won’t make a big UFA splash (per usual), but it is always fun to dream we could actually make the team better instead of sitting at the Cap floor.
Thornton's playoff failures stretch way farther back than San Jose.
In 35 playoff games for Boston, he went just 6-12-18 with a -10, including 1-2-3 with a -11 in his last two seasons, a pair of first-round knockouts.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair he never even made it past the 2nd Round in that time. I agree he has his faults in the post-season, just as I’m sure most people here should agree that Staal has his DEFINITE faults in the first half of every singly full-season.
Cole is far more awful in the Playoffs stat wise with 14 points in 43 Playoff games. Ruutu is equally as bad with only 4 points in 16 total Playoff games.
Doesn’t change the fact that Big Joe would be a huge addition to the team, although personally I’d rather have a Mikko Koivu type.
Cole and Ruutu aren't paid like superstars, though.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I do think a playmaker is needed, but I would rather have Staal on my team than Backstrom. Backstrom is a great player, but he benefits more from is playing partners.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 11:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Common knock on Backstrom just because he plays with Ovi… But the kid would be a superstar on any other team. I would go as far as saying I would rather have Backstrom than Ovechkin on my team.
Personal preferences, but there are very few players I’d rather have than Backstrom.
I’m not saying Backstrom is not a great player, but he has 2 elite scoring forwards to play with and 1 elite scoring defenseman. Those playing partners inflate his numbers. Who does Staal have to play with that even compares to Ovie, Semin, and Green?
I think Backstrom is a great player that would be good anywhere he goes, but I don’t see him being more productive than Staal in Carolina. In Carolina, he would be the opposing team’s primary focus and would not be surrounded by as talented players. I think he fits well with the Caps.
I think many here sell Staal short because he doesn’t have as good of a supporting cast as other big name players. Rick Nash probably plays with less, but he doesn’t produce as many points as Staal. Parise doesn’t really have that second superstar, but the Devils have some good players. Iginla doesn’t have anybody, but he continues to put up numbers. Beyond those 3 (and I might have missed someone), most other teams try to lessen the load on their star with another star or high caliber player.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 12:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t see all 3 on a line together because they wouldn’t compliment each other very well. I think 2 of them with a playmaker would be a very good line. I assume Skinner would be a better partner for Staal because I think Staal’s and Dalpe’s games are too similar. But both are still unproven, so time will tell how things work out.
Regarding moving Staal to wing; I can’t see that. I really do believe his game is much better at center than wing. But Staal needs to significantly improve his faceoff accuman.
I would still like to see a player like Sharp or Hemsky put on a Staal-Skinner line. Those two are sort of playmakers (Hemsky more so than Sharp) that can score and would bring out the best in Staal and Skinner IMO.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 1:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Joe Thornton is a UFA next year… Why not.
Thornton at Center with Staal and Skinner flanking him. Talk about a dangerous line. I hope the magic money fairy comes to the Canes soon enough.
Figuring the Cap is going to keep going up may be a dangerous game… Apparently when the CBA is being reworked in 2012 they are looking at cutting the Cap (possibly significantly). It is a big reason teams are so wary to shell out the big bucks for Kovy.
Can’t argue with the numbers though.. That is the type of team we can have when we have $1.5 million in salary on the 4th line instead of $5+ million. Although I’m guessing two of Boychuk, Dalpe, or Bowman have pretty good years and we may need to pay them more in the $1-1.5 million range. I think I’d rather sign Pitkanen to $5.5 million for 6-8 years if he would take it, longer term for less money.
My personal issue with the Pitkanen situation is what will happen if he still isn’t signed come the Trade Deadline. Even if it looks as if he wants to re-sign, are we going to risk another Ray Whitney situation? He has so much value (more than Ray even), it would be a huge leap of faith.
The cap increase is an assumption, but beyond the 1 year it has increased by at least $2M. So its not crazy. I also do believe that the only way the Canes keeps their better players is to have a young, cheap 4th line. I don’t believe the Canes can afford to “roll 4 lines.”. They need a 4th line of cheap players that are hungry to show they belong, provide some energy, and can contribute on the PK. Those 4th liners would probably need to be rotated every couple of years once their contracts get too expensive.
According to capgeek; Boychuk, Bowman, and Dalpe will all still be under their entry-level deal in 11/12. So none of them will be required a raise at all until after the 11/12 season.
And again like I mentioned earlier, JR needs to break from his norm and work out a deal for Pots before the trade deadline. If he can’t, the Canes must trade him, so he doesn’t leave for nothing in return.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 12:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Really? What I’m looking at says Boychuk, Bowman, Osala, Tlusty, Sanguinetti, and Sutter will all be RFAs next offseason. You are right on Dalpe, he still has 3 years. Would be good news.
Well, Sutter is a RFA after this year. Boychuk was drafted the year after Sutter, so he would be a RFA the season after Sutter. Bowman spent an extra year in juniors, so I believe his RFA is the same as Boychuk. Osala, Tlusty, and Sanguinetti are RFA’s after the upcoming season. But only Tlusty is certain to play the whole season in the NHL.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 12:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It goes without saying, but what happens this season will have a huge impact on Pitkanen’s value. He might get hurt and miss 10-20 games (and he will miss 10 games), which would lower his value. As it is I think we are overstating Pitkanen’s value; whether he deserves it or not; he has a reputation for poor play in his own zone and not living up to his potential in the offensive zone, on top of the “injury prone” label.
Also, what does the 2011 UFA market look like for defensemen? Does anyone have a list?
On the other hand, Pitkanen might have a great season and some of these young guys might surprise us. If that’s the case, JR can always make the pitch that the Canes are a young, up-and-coming team, maybe a couple seasons and a free agent acquisition or two away from being a serious contender. In that case, Pitkanen may want to stick around.
But who knows. Let’s see how the season pans out first!
In addition to Pitkanen:
(in order of salary next year)
Chara
Jovanovski
Markov
Hamrlik
Eric Brewer
Scott Hannan
Shea Weber (RFA)
T. Kaberle
B. McCabe
Bieksa
Chris Phillips
Poti
Rivet
S. Salo
Seabrook (RFA)
Ehrhoff
So it’s a pretty deep class, but it’s also an old class, so that will increase Joni’s attractiveness.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Our defensive corps still isn’t great even after the Corvo signing, and trading Pitkanen either right now or in the near future will dramatically weaken it. He’s a veteran presence at a time when we don’t have much of it. He’s reliable and can play big minutes game after game. If you trade Joni now or in the near future then you’d really harm our chances of being in the playoffs this year, which this team can accomplish.
So, unless the Canes can get a real solid defenseman in return for Pitkanen (which seems unlikely at this point), then no, don’t trade him. Now if the Canes are sellers at the deadline, then Pitkanen would be a prized commodity and JR could get a lot for him. At that point I’d consider trading him if I knew he’d be too expensive to re-sign and we could get some good returns.
Next year may be better off taken as a rebuilding year anyway. Nearly half of our roster has less than 20 games NHL experience… They will be good eventually but they could use a year of battle.
If we were sellers at next years trade deadline, we could pile up the assets. Pitkanen, Jussi, and Larose would be hot commodities as rentals and I’m guessing even Cole and Samsonov would get offers. If we did end up trading Pitkanen, I really hope we would get a future top-pairing D (someone like Alex Pietrangelo) or a potential 1st line forward prospect in return. Preliminary reports would say next years Draft is pretty solid in top-end talent, but not extremely deep like this years. A top-5 pick would go a long way for us, I’m very interested in Sean Couturier out of the QMJHL.
Sean Couturier=ADog's Idea Foward TO THE MAX
by SouthernHockeyNutter on Jul 10, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Another thing we must consider in Pitkanen’s possible/not possible resigning is JR’s love for the guy. From my memory, JR said that he always was looking for a way to acquire him, when the Cole for Pits trade went down. JR does have a way of getting players he has a man-crush on. Just look at all of the re-acquired players he has brought back to Raleigh. Again, I’m not saying Pits is a Canes past next season; its just not out of the realm of possibility.
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by PackPride17 on Jul 10, 2010 4:56 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
If the Canes are willing to shell out the money… Pitkanen will stay with the team.
Whether the Canes are willing to shell out the money is anyone’s guess. My guess would be if Pits isn’t signed by the beginning of the season, he needs to be traded at or before the deadline. I’d love to keep him, but I’d hate to lose him for nothing even more.
Contract extension timing
If it’s any consolation, the last two contract extensions that JR announced, Staal’s (2008) and Ward’s (2009), were both executed in September, with very little noise made in advance.
Perhaps it’s too strange of a financial year for this pattern to hold up, so JR may have to take it down to brinkmanship territory, just because he can’t step up to the plate and heavily financially commit the org right now. Until that new ownership identity is known, financial decisions like this might be on hold.
Or, who knows, maybe they want to watch a good portion of this season go down before they commit to a multi-year contract. It wouldn’t hurt Joni to find a new wrinkle to his game to earn the money he’s probably due on the market. Say, a bit more physicality, or a bit more shooting instead of passing.
I’m fairly confident from PackPride17’s analysis that the deal can be done if we want him and that he’d sign to stay. Not only because of the Finnish element, but also because of the lack of intensity from the press and fans, plus the rising tide that this org is experiencing.
So, hopefully the pieces fall into place. Otherwise, yes, he’s going to bring a nice package in return at the deadline…but, then what? He’ll need replacing, if we’re not homegrowing a suitable candidate.
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