Ask A Scout: Answers To Your Questions About Carolina’s Prospects, Part 2
by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2010 9:01 AM EDT
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Red Line Report scout Max Giese was nice enough to field questions from Canes Country's readers about Carolina's prospects and the players chosen in June's entry draft. We received several questions and Max was kind of enough to sift through them and answer as many as he could. Some questions have been edited for clarity and style. This is Part 2 of the two-part Q&A. You can read Part 1 here.
So far, Zach Boychuk doesn’t seem to have the strength or size to be a factor at the NHL level. Are Canes fans expecting too much from him? (from chapelhillcane)
Giese: Boychuk will be fine. I don't think strength is an issue, and that's not really his game anyway. His game is about explosive quickness and his ability to separate from opponents in tight spaces. I think he's a solid bet to be a nice 2nd-liner in the NHL who can play the game at both ends. He might not get away with playing as much of a puck possession game as he did in juniors, but the quick-strike finishing ability should translate fine to the NHL.
Did you think Central Scouting’s final rankings were any better or worse this year than in the past? Stephen Johns was ranked ahead of Mark Alt, but the Canes took Alt. Is that just a matter of an individual team’s needs asserting themselves? Archibald, Silas, and Schemitsch were all ranked ahead of Levi, who was correctly tagged, it turns out, by David Burstyn and others to be a sleeper pick. Was it just the Compuware connection, or does he have more upside than the others? Stahl also looks like a good deal if you put stock in the NCS rankings, but how reliable are their rankings? (from JuniorMajor)
Giese: Central Scouting has its uses, but I don't put much stock at all into their exact rankings. Mostly I think NHL scouts just use it as a road map. I think their players to watch list, preliminary lists, and mid-term rankings serve more of a purpose than their actual final rankings. If Central Scouting has a kid ranked that I haven't seen yet or wasn't impressed with in my first viewings of him, then the lists help me to go search out that player. Then it's up to the scout to decide their own opinion on the player. Stephen Johns is physically already a man and looked like a solid first-rounder most of the year while Mark Alt wasn't sure he was going to commit to hockey at times. Late in the year, Johns' stock dropped rapidly because of his lack of hockey sense and Alt's stock soared just as rapidly because we found out he was going to stick to hockey. So I think Central was just a little late to react maybe? David Burstyn is an old colleague of mine from when I used to work for McKeen's Hockey and now he also scouts for the Sarnia Sting. He has a great eye for talent and he was smart to pick Levi as a sleeper pick. Levi is a kid that did play for the stacked Compuware program (with Austin Watson, Luke Moffatt, Jason Zucker, etc.). I don't think the pick had anything to do with the Compuware connection. I think it was just that Carolina saw a big and athletic stay-at-home defenseman who has some upside that was good value in the middle of the draft. NCS is really just a one-man show and I don't put any stock whatsoever into their rankings as it is way to biased in favor of certain kids for my liking. The consensus among scouts is that NCS puts "their" list out for the wrong reasons and the only time I've ever had an NHL scout mention "them" to me was when the scout poked fun at their rankings.
I’d like to know more about Justin Shugg. Can you offer insight as to why he might have fallen so low? With [Taylor] Hall gone, what will Shugg’s role be at Windsor? What's the best one-word descriptor? Shooter, playmaker, fast skater, vison? (from hockeymomof2)
Giese: Scouts are concerned that Justin Shugg had a lot of situational success this year and that his game won't cut it in the pros. He's a rather one-dimensional player in the sense that he's a great goal scorer, but if he's not scoring he isn't contributing much to your team. He's one of those boom-or-bust types at the moment unless he diversifies his game — but that's still possible. Shugg's role should remain the same in Windsor this year. He will play on one of the top two lines and the be on the first power play unit. He will light the OHL up in terms of goal scoring again. The best one-word descriptor would be shooter. I compare him to a poor man's Jeff Skinner in the way he's not the biggest or fastest guy but he has a knack for putting the puck in the back of the net.
I'm also interested in Mark Alt and his decision to choose hockey over football. We missed him at conditioning camp. He was invited to Team USA WJC development camp. Is he really that good? (from hockeymomof2)
Giese: Mark Alt's decision to pick hockey was a drawn out one with plenty of twists and turns along the way. It seemed like every weekend when I was at the rinks new information was coming about as to which way he was leaning. He made football visits to quality programs and was on the sideline for an Iowa football game. So it looked like he was leaning toward football. Then we got word he was going to play for the Chicago Steel after his high school season was done. A week or so later we learned that he wasn't coming to Chicago any longer and that he was going to play an elite 8 tournament in Minnesota and then be done for the year. Is he really that good? Yes. Alt likely would've been a first-round pick this year had he not injured his shoulder and had he committed to hockey from the get go. In a way he's similar to Derek Forbort, who went pretty high, in that he's a very tall, mobile defenseman with very good raw potential.
What’s the word on Austin Levi? Was he picked a little early because of connection to Whalers? We’ve seen video of coast-to-coast goals he’s scored. Yet he’s self-described as stay-at-home D. What do we need to know? (from hockeymomof2)
Giese: What you need to know about Austin Levi is that he's a tall and athletic stay-at-home defenseman who will play some with physicality. He moves pretty well for a kid of his size and has a big shot, but his hand skills and decision making are suspect when he's under heavy pressure. Still he was very good value where Carolina got him.
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Boychuk
I think Max Giese is exactly right about Boychuk. I think he will be impressive on the second line; and sooner rather than later, I think Boychuk and Sutter will again be paired together. They have played together on lines previously in their young careers. I also am convinced this season we will see Boychuk/Staal/Skinner for a few games so the coaches can assess where Boychuk and Skinner are in their development. I look for a tremendous amount of mixing and matching of lines this season – which considering previous seasons will mean the lines may shift mid-period.
I agree with you on most of this … I’m not sold on Skinner and Boychuk with Staal simply b/c that puts the total physical burden for the line of Staal.
by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Boychuk/Staal/Skinner
Cory, I totally agree about the downside of having Staal needing to be the man of the Boychuk/Staal/Skinner line; but my instinct is that the Hurricanes will see if that line can be a dominate, scoring line with speed and the ability to finish. I don’t suggest it will become written in stone and that the lines won’t vary. I do suggest that the coaches will put those three players together to see if magic happens. Under the Canes system, there is a huge advantage to scoring first. Also, Boychuk has the ability to draw penalties – even on a third or fourth line. With Staal and Skinner, Boychuk would have even more space and could draw even more penalties. Last season the Hurricanes Power Play was sad most of the year. This season, having the offensive firepower the team now has, power plays can be a tremendous asset.
Additionally, it would not hurt Staal at all to have some shifts in which he had some young, creative, highly talented scorers. In the same vein, I anticipate seeing the coaches try Boychuk/Staal/Ruutu and Boychuk/Staal/Jokinen at some points during the season. In my view, the coaches are not only trying to create magic this year, they want to lay the seeds of success for future seasons.
Skinner
Certainly during the preseason we’ll see Skinner paired with Staal for some shifts, perhaps even games.
It’s “Dude, What If?” time, after all. If Skinner’s to be Staal’s wing-of-the-future, then they’re going to look for any hints of what that might look like right away, especially while it doesn’t really count.
As for during the season, I’m personally of the opinion that Skinner should be returned to his junior team, no matter how bright and shiny he is. He’s an 18-year-old kid that needs to have a nice hard look at what it takes at the NHL level, convince himself that he can hang with them, and then be sent back down to dominate and let that confidence brim.
There’s no AHL option for this kid, so when he makes the leap from juniors he needs to stick and grow immediately. As good as he would be right out of the box next season, we have prospect depth luxury that needs ice time and few open spots.
Heck, even Tyler Seguin could find himself back in juniors next year, perhaps more of a victim of salary cap than talent issues, but that extra year will help him, too. It’s not a bad move for an org to make.
Show them the show, and then send them home to grow.
Here we are now...entertain us.
I don’t know if that makes if he can hang. If he’s good enough for a roster spot what’s the point in sending him back to juniors, that almost seems counter-productive to his development. Our roster should be filled with the best players we have available for the given role. The 2 biggest things he’ll have to adjust to are the size and speed of NHL players. He’s done the travel (via bus) and played close to the amount of games they play in the NHL, so until we see how he does it’s probably a little early to automatically send him back to junior. Based on the org’s posturing he seems like he’ll get his 9 games but most expect him to be sent back. Based on our roster goals will be a premium and 15-20 have to come from a 18 year old so be it.
I think, and I have seen just about every hockey columnist write, that Skinner could easily join the team next year and pot 15-30 goals depending on lines, injuries, etc. Last year Ryan O’Reilley had a very productive season (almost better than Duchene’s) as a 2nd Rounder going straight into the NHL. Skinner could also be sent back, mature among players of similar age, be an OHL superstar again, and possibly win a Memorial Cup with favorites Kitchener.
I think he is definitely sitting on the fence right now and pre-season (and his 9 game NHL try-out) will ultimately decide. Personally I think he is going to score at least a ppg in that time and stick… I’m guessing he lights up Josh Harding for a hat-trick in the 2nd game of the season.
I’m simply recognizing that there’s a difference between “could” and “should”.
I’m not sure I’m willing to buy that the best thing for his development would be adding him to this season’s roster if he can hang.
There’s no bail-out option to the AHL for an 18-year-old, should the season get long or the ride get a bit rough.
Plus, we have very few slots and a lot of bodies to sort through and decide who’s a keeper and who’s a tradeable asset. If we have no patience and add Skinner now, that’s one less slot available at a time when it would be easy to use them all auditioning what we do have under contract.
I’m just saying yes he could be more than adequate this season. But, why not try to turn him into a superstar by letting him dominate in the OHL?
He’s really not “done it all” down there, just yet, and will be the star of his team. That confidence will serve him well when he breaks into the league (still no AHL option available) in ‘11-’12.
Just give him a good taste now, show him what expectations are, and let him work on fulfilling them.
Again, he’s just an 18-year-old kid. Patience will serve us well.
Here we are now...entertain us.
"Patience will serve us well"
Elsker, I am definitely of the “Patience will serve us well” mind-set with Skinner. I’d rather he be treated a little conservatively than he be rushed. I was dubious when Sutter was sent back because I thought he was ready; and I think I was wrong and Rutherford was right in how Sutter was handled. Skinner may well be that scoring wing the Hurricanes have needed for a long, long time; and with him patience is definitely a virtue. With Sutter the Hurricanes kept him in the NHL until he was old enough to go to the AHL because they felt he had learned all he could learn from the minors. It will be fun to watch, but I’m with you; and unless it is 100% inarguable Skinner is ready, I hope they will follow the Sutter and Boychuk approach.
I think we’ll see a little different pedigree with Skinner than Boychuk and Sutter, I’m not throwing either under the bus but from what I’ve heard and read Skinner’s dynamic around the net and flat out score goals. What would be frustrating is if he’s good enough but we send him down anyway (“patience will serve us well”) and we don’t make the playoffs by 4-6 points. Think what an extra 5 – 10 goals will do for our roster. They have to make decisions based on the situation and not a hard & fast model, I’m all for being conservative, but when a unique situation presents itself it should be leveraged.
Agreed, also while Sutter and Boychuk were considered very thin with lots of room to grow… Skinner is actually very bulky and filled out for his size.
I’m not saying Skinner isn’t oozing with talent (he is), but I don’t think he’s that much more acclaimed coming out of the draft than Zach was. Or Sutter for that matter. They are three completely different kinds of players — like comparing Brett Hull, Teemu Sellane and Guy Carbonneau. All three are legendary players, but they are for very different reasons.
Skinner can score, but can he keep up?
Boychuk can fly, but can he finish?
Sutter is sharp as a tack, but is he skilled enough?
You can’t get overly enamored with any one part of the game b/c you’ll always find that team’s can neutralize you if you’re not good enough elsewhere. Even if Skinner scores 10 times in the preseason, that doesn’t mean he’s scoring 30 in the regular season (see Staal’s rookie year).
For all three of these guys, i wouldn’t look at the points and make any assumptions. As Sutter showed, you can take a big step with just one more year under your belt. Zach didn’t put up a lot of points, but there were some things he did very well.
by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, good points. I don’t think either have Skinner’s goal scoring ability, what will separate Skinner and does separate pure goal scorers is their ability to find pucks – they’re puck magnets, it can’t be explained. I get it, it won’t be the end of the world if he goes back to junior and will probably do him good, Lord knows Team Canada’s WJ Team needs him.
I don’t doubt that at all. Some guys have a knack. But we’ve yet to see it against men. For all the hype Skinner is getting now, it’s easy to forget that he was a bit of an off-the-board pick in June.
by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Geee Cory
I hate it when you are 100% correct …well not really but i fear that if the canes rush him, he’ll either wilt or burn out and all would be for nothing …and he’d up as a washed up wannbe in his early 20’s…after all NHL level Hockey is NOT very forgiving is it ??
thanks again a great effort and thanks Mr. G for us all please…yes again !!! hehehe…
And if it Aint Hockey,It Aint Nothin !!
That Checkers 3rd Sweater ROCKS !!!
But to my point above, we shouldn’t give that roster to someone who will not be as productive just because he’s 18. There’s certainly risk with this, you don’t want a A. Pietroangelo or Sbisa situation either. I think it’s a little easier with forwards, look at R. O’Reilly and M.Duchene last year; on paper, the Av’s looked a lot worse a year ago than we do going into this season, so I think it will be tougher for Skinner than Duchene & O’Reilly. I just think we’ll see a noticable difference between Skinner’s goal scoring ability versus Boychuk, Tlusty, and Bowman.
If the Canes are actually trying their damndest to make the Playoffs next year (to sell the unowned portion of the team, draw more STH, raise awareness during the ASG year, etc.) and Skinner has a good preseason and 9 game tryout, I think he has to stick. Simply because we can use his goal production and if he is better than what we have, why not? If he shows himself to be good enough in his trial (and at this point it looks promising), I think he could could learn more from the NHL than in Juniors.
On the other hand if we are trying to skate by this year (comments about being profitable while still missing the Playoffs seem to point towards that), rebuild, get our young guns some experience, and probably miss the Playoffs… Then there is no reason to sign him for the simple reason that it would eat a year of his contract and it would cost us. Although keep in mind with elite rookie contract, while their actual salary is $900k, they have performance bonuses usually up into the $3 million area. However if they don’t achieve those bonuses, they don’t have to pay him the extra money so he actually probably wouldn’t cost that much. It is win-win and the Cap hit is negligible since we aren’t a Cap team.
Skinner's talent could help; so could his energy and upbeat personality
I don’t know whether Skinner should be in the NHL this year or not, but yesterday’s shootout highlight was more evidence that he’s a talented, upbeat, enthusiastic kid. He appears to have a kind of enthusiasm that might energize a team. Whether or not Skinner has the best skills to claim a roster spot now, I get the feeling his value won’t be limited to the points he contributes. His ability to lift his OHL team higher in the playoffs is another really good sign about not only his talent, but also his drive and enthusiasm.
Boychuk seems to have tremendous energy to go with his quickness. Add Skinner’s energy and enthusiasm, and the Canes might be better prepared for the ups and downs of an NHL season even though they’re short of experience.
Sometimes with the Canes, it’s as though the rest of the team is waiting to see if Staal can be a superstar on a given night and singlehandedly allow the Canes to eke out a victory. It wouldn’t hurt a bit to add a couple of relentless, energetic players with offensive talent, however inexperienced and mistake-prone. Even if neither Skinner nor Boychuk is ready to score 30+ goals on Staal’s line, their talent and energy could take some of the burden off Staal and create open ice for him and other linemates. (The scoring talent added on the blueline will help, too.)
When things go wrong, and especially in a losing streak and when there’s an epidemic of injuries, the Canes sometimes seem to act like condemned men with no control over their fate. Things went so badly last year with injuries and certain key players (like Aaron Ward) contributing much less than expected, maybe things were beyond their control. Based on the glimpses we’ve had of Skinner, I get the sense that he would help provide insurance against resignation to a dismal fate. The youth movement late last season injected life. Skinner might take that to a new level.
If Skinner is clearly overmatched and at risk of losing his confidence, the Canes should send him down. But if he can hold his own and help accelerate the transformation of the team, I’d like to see him in Raleigh all year as an 18-yr-old.
by curiouscanesfan on Aug 6, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
boychuk needs to be playing against 2nd or third line defrence to succeed
this will improve his confidence and game
Boychuk Against First Line Defense
There is no question Boychuk has room to mature and develop. On the other hand, the advantage of Boychuk spending some shifts with Staal and Skinner/Ruutu/Jokinen is that if Boychuk can use his speed and quickness to draw penalties against first line defensemen, he takes out the best defenders and causes pairings that the opposing team does not prefer. This season Boychuk drew more penalties per minute played, I believe, than any other Hurricane. It is a statistic that ought to be formally followed by the NHL, I contend. A player who has the skill to draw penalties and put your team on the man advantage makes that player quite valuable.
Great Series
Thanks to Cory, Matt & everyone who submitted questions. Very cool.
Thanks Max and Cory - love these these articles!
I agree with him on Boychuk. He didn’t put up great numbers but when you watch him with the puck and away from the puck – you can tell he’s going to be good one. He just seemed more unlucky than anything this year as far getting goals. He made some great plays and was all around very good even though he hardly showed up on scoresheet. I feel he will breakout this year much like Sutter did last year.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.
Thanks
Many, many thanks to Max Giese for taking the time to share his knowledge and observations with us.
Very insightful as to what your independent pro eyes see in our prospects. Also, now know to moreso throw salt as in cooking, instead of using that salt shaker I had been carrying before, when reviewing any scouting org’s rankings.
After all, come to think of it, after having a chance to see some documentaries over the years of Central Scouting refining its rankings as the season went on, I have seen some of the meetings where that list emerges. Typical committee experience, where extreme views (which may be entirely correct) are filtered out, personalities can dominate, and an homogeneous product emerges.
My eyes are now more fully open as to how an org trusts its scouts and scouting sources moreso than Central Scouting, probably follows up with many sets of eyes from the org once a draft prospect is targeted, and charts its own path and draft strategy independent of those committee rankings.
Great read and a huge favor to our fanbase (who deserves kudos for kicking out some excellent questions).
Here we are now...entertain us.
Good info!!
Very informative, i’m particularly happy to hear that my suspicions about Central Scouting were right on! I thought RLR and ISS analyses seemed to be more logical and well reasoned!
Very encouraging words about Alt
Alt is something of a mystery man. To hear Max say Alt would probably have been a first rounder except for a shoulder injury and concerns he would pursue football is further evidence that this was a great draft for the Hurricanes. The comparison to Forbort doesn’t hurt either.
There will be a long wait for Alt, but it sounds as though he’s a player worth waiting for.
Zach Boychuk
I was very unimpressed with Boychuk this season. I had great expectations heading in, and he simply did not live up to them. You don’t expect kids with hopes and dreams of one day being a star in the NHL to give such a nonchalant effort as Boychuk demonstrated over the course of his time in both the AHL and NHL.
I have a difficult time having a lot of faith in a young kid who once he turns professional, red flags rise regarding his work ethic. Jeff Daniels spoke of it as did our staff. Not encouraging, to say the least. When you’re being associated with remarks such as “not taking the AHL seriously enough” and “taking shifts off” at both the AHL and NHL level, that irks me. Especially when you’re statistical numbers aren’t anything to pound your chest about.
Regarded as one of the more NHL ready prospects in the 2008 draft, he has yet to show he belongs or will make any sort of significant impact at the NHL level. To put things into perspective, Boychuk narrowly missed out on being eligible for the 2007 draft as an October 4th birth date, which would have put him in the same draft as Sutter. He will spend the months of October – February of this season the same age as Sutter. He has to show he belongs to instill faith in me, as a fan.
Boychuk and Effort
I have not seen those quotes at all; and I have to say, having watched now almost the entire 2009-2010 NHL season at least once on video and much of the AHL Rats season, I have no clue what basis you have for saying Boychuk was nonchalant. I realize everybody is entitled to his and her own opinion; but can you describe any game where you saw Boychuk play in a nonchalant, lazy fashion? I’ve heard or read any hint of a lack of effort by Boychuk, so if you have quotes from Daniels, I would appreciate your referencing the source. My take from looking at hour after hour of video is that Boychuk was playing better and better, both at the NHL level; and certainly at the AHL level. His line of Boychuk/Dalpe/Osala was by far the best line in the AHL playoffs against Hershey – and Hershey was essentially the 31st NHL team. In short, 100% disagree with your observations; and have no idea what games you saw to make you reach that conclusion.
At the time of the 2008 draft, Boychuk was considered and viewed as a low risk, medium reward type of talent, if you will. If you compare his transition and growth in development to that of Tyler Ennis, for example, you can see what Boychuk has left on the tabe developmentally.
Admittedly, I did not watch all of Albany’s season as I do not have the privilege of doing so, however I did watch nearly 40 games and in which Boychuk played and he didn’t really jump out to me. There was the occasion where he would make a play in which demonstrated he has some natural talent, however when speaking in terms of creating opportunities for himself, having that edge about his game to do the dirty work needed all over the ice, he simply didn’t seem to have it in him, in my honest opinion.
There is no doubt Zach Boychuk is naturally talented enough to succeed at the NHL level with great success, with that said last year brought forth some question marks and red flags regarding his ability to translate his game to that next level, being the NHL. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that based on how the team performed last season and roster spots became available, that a kid such as Boychuk could and should have been able to step up to the plate and say ‘This is my job now’. Sutter did it with and earned his stripes, I did not see the ambition from Boychuk.
For instance, Boychuk was demoted during the season, played a strong 15-20 games in Albany, and then sulked for the rest of the year until he was called up. You simply do not expect that from a kid in Boychuk’s position. Then he tried to turn it back on and he couldn’t do it until the very end of the year. I just didn’t like it. It did not sit well with me in the least. For a young kid with such high hopes and who is now in the position to succeed his life long dream, I sensed a real sense of entitlement which does and will not benefit his talent level.
Ennis had a lot bigger role with Buffalo (inc. PP time) than Zach did with the Canes, even tho he played about half as many games when you count the postseason. Ennis is brutal in his own end, too. Like I mentioned above when talking Skinner and Boychuk, it’s not all about final stats.
by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I myself indeed found Boychuk to be lacking in the effort department. He would just disappear for stretches at a time and it all seemed to boil down to work ethic and doing the little things in order to consistently be successful. He will most certainly have to tighten his laces if he wants to be successful in the NHL. On a personal note, I feel Boychuk, among others, took a step backwards last season when others seemed to progress forward.
It would also be widely known that Boychuk has not been touted to have a strong defensive game either, so that negates the comparison defensively between the two. He’s a step up when comparing ro the likes of Ennis, however Ennis is pure offense and that is a known intangible of his respective game. It can be tough to play defence at the NHL level when you stand 5’9 and just over 140lbs. My point still stands when comparing the two mentioned prospects. I personally expected Boychuk to demonstrate the offensive game and statistical output of that in which Ennis developed and showed in his first stint in the AHL. It did not happen for Boychuk and there is reason for that very fact, whether many choose to believe it or not. Hindsight is 20/20, however when looking back, seeing Boychuk selected at 14th overall and Ennis barely making the firs round, compare the two offensively at their respective stages while also taking into consideration they are offense first players and defence isn’t eithers strong suit, and Boychuk leaves a fair share to be desired.
I am most certainly not saying Boychuk will not translate his offensive game to the NHL, like Ennis has appeared to do with relative ease, however it is critical for him to do the little things in order to be successful. Boychuk and Ennis are quite comparable in my opinion, one just seemed to have made a much smoother transition. Ennis may very well have had a bigger role, because he earned and deserved it. The same cannot be said for Boychuk.
Boychuk and Effort
What games did you see a lack of effort by Boychuyk? Again, nobody is saying you aren’t entitled to your opinion; but it is contrary to what I believe and know I saw – but I’ve been wrong plenty of times. I never once heard any coach or commentator even hint that Boychuk lacked the will to win; and to the contrary, his effort was touted as one of his strengths. He did have to work on consistency – not effort, but being in the right place at the right time and learning how to read and time his moves for the men that play in the NHL.
Boychuk’s game also was touted as getting more and more consistent as the year progressed; so it is a matter in which I could not possibly disagree more with you about your conclusions concerning Boychuk. I find it hard to imagine that you could meet Boychuk and watch Boychuk in the AHL, went literally only a tiny fraction of hockey fans were watching; and conclude anything other than Boychuk’s strength is his hustle and desire to win. He is as feisty as any player the Hurricanes have.
If you have a specific NHL game where you saw a lack of effort by Boychuk and can reference it, I’ll go back over the weekend and review the game.
Ennis got to play more b/c Connolly got hurt.
by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
And Boychuk did exactly what with the ice time and role given to him on a platter based on injury and how poorly the team was doing. He was practically spoon fed the opportunity to succeed and did not take advantage of it. He did not earn nor make the effort and contributions that Ennis put forth.
He didn’t play with elite guys, Ennis did. Ennis was getting nearly three PP minutes a game, Zach almost none. It wasn’t much of a platter, to be honest. He played more than 15 minutes twice … if you look at the stats, Ennis produced when he got 15+ minutes.
by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
That doesn’t negate the fact. Boychuk was given games with our top lines and didn’t look in place, he looked out of place. That’ll get you demoted quickly.
So last year is behind us Thank God and Boychuk’s performance is debatable, I’m kind of mixed on it. Right now he’s slotted on the 3rd line on the depth charge, where do his point totals need to be in that role for us all to agree he made the most of his opportunity next summer? I’d say at minimum somewhere in the 10-15 goal range and somewhere in the 25-30 assist range.
What games are you talking about in which Boychuk was on the top line and where he looked out of place? He had I think one game with Staal and Ruutu when at least Staal was injured and Boychuk was praised for his play.
Basically, I think your conclusions are without factual basis. Boychuk was not demoted because he was out of place or because he was inadequate. Highly paid veterans returned and as is the case in the NHL, the young players who don’t have to be waived sometimes get sent down.
Boychuk at the AHL
I watched the AHL Rats games on AHLLIVE and Boychuk was all over the ice. I didn’t see one shift where he was gliding. Sometimes he tried too hard and tried to do too much; but never once did anybody in the Rats organization or any commentator suggest anything other than Boychuk was a 100% effort player. AHLLive has closed down for the season, so it is not possible as far as I know to go back and re-watch those games. I can’t disagree more with you.
I don’t think he sulked at all. In speaking to Jeff Daniels, he never said to me that that they were at all disappointed in Zach’s effort. He mentioned consistency, but not in terms of effort.
by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Boychuk and Effort, typo fixed
I have not seen those quotes at all; and I have to say, having watched now almost the entire 2009-2010 NHL season at least once on video and much of the AHL Rats season, I have no clue what basis you have for saying Boychuk was nonchalant. I realize everybody is entitled to his and her own opinion; but can you describe any game where you saw Boychuk play in a nonchalant, lazy fashion? I’ve never before heard or read any hint of a lack of effort by Boychuk, so if you have quotes from Daniels, I would appreciate your referencing the source. My take from looking at hour after hour of video is that Boychuk was playing better and better, both at the NHL level; and certainly at the AHL level. His line of Boychuk/Dalpe/Osala was by far the best line in the AHL playoffs against Hershey – and Hershey was essentially the 31st NHL team. In short, 100% disagree with your observations; and have no idea what games you saw to make you reach that conclusion.
Boychuk = quickness and energy waiting for opportunity
I didn’t see Boychuk nearly as much you, Vagrant, or you, abramsdoug, but what I did see makes me think he’s got a great combination of quickness and energy. I thought the main limitation on his performance in Raleigh was not getting enough consistent ice time in more prominent roles.
For example, I thought he was better at digging out the puck and setting up Brind’Amour, Bowman and Kostopolous to score than they were at helping him score. I’m sure he could have done some things better, but I don’t think he could have tried any harder.
My take was that Boychuk would be able to contribute a lot more scoring if given consistent time as one cog in a line that complemented him with more playmaking and scoring talent. I’m not at all sure that he’s talented enough to be a first-line scoring winger to complement Staal, although I wouldn’t absolutely rule that out at this stage. I do feel sure that he’ll contribute significantly to Canes’ scoring if given consistent ice time on a scoring line. He’s wasted on a fourth line, but I saw no sign of sulking about being stuck in that role.
by curiouscanesfan on Aug 6, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
To tie this all in a bow … only six Canes (Pothier, too, but not counting him b/c a lot came w/ WSH) had a positive Goal For/Goals Against Per 60 Minutes last season.
Player: GFON/60 – GAON/60 =
McBain: 3.68 – 2.53 = +1.15
Jokinen: 3.00 – 2.42 = +0.58
Staal: 3.57 – 3.17 = +0.40
Boychuk: 2.72 – 2.33 = +0.39
Tlusty: 2.10 – 1.84 = +0.26
Carson: 2.34 – 2.11 = +0.23
That is a fact that can easily be left off the table for Boychuk, even Tlusty. Consider the amount of games they played and the minimal roles they were apart of and it becomes rather useless. To distribute facts such as this yet disregard Boychuk’s impact offensively at the NHL based on lack of roles, in comparison to Ennis is incomparable.
Ennis earned his icetime and role, Boychuk did the exact opposite. He had opportunities to earn a permanent spot on separate occasions and failed. You cannot use GF/GA per ice time as a basis of argument, yet disregard the other, being Ennis’ contributions to that Boychuk’s (lack of).
Did you not notice that Boychuk was often playing with Brind’Amour and Kostopoulos for seven to nine minutes a game? What about the Lighting game where Boychuk had two assists on two shifts in the first eight minutes of the first period with Brind’Amour and Kostopoulos and then only saw a total of 13 shifts? If Boychuk doesn’t get time on the ice, he can’t do but so much – which is even more impressive when one looks at his numbers shown above.
He was given opportunities on the top lines and simply never excelled nor did he look fit for the role in terms of wanting it/being ready for it, as Ennis was and is. There is a reason he ended up with the likes of Kostopoulos, Brind’Amour.
You also cannot ignore what a player demonstrates in practice. Jim Rutherford and the organization were practically drooling at Boychuk’s natural skills during his first training camp (which by the way, this will be his 3rd training camp), he left quite the ‘wow factor’ in a lot of people within the organization and fans. Where are those intangibles now? Can they not be translated? At a time when Brandon Sutter stepped in and captured his role, Boychuk very well could have done the same. Sutter earned his minutes. There were nights when Sutter was outright our best player, yet he walked away after the the game with 10-12 minutes. Eventually those minutes escalated, because he earned them. Boychuk, did not. Sutter was never supposed to stay in Carolina, however he gave the organization no choice. Boychuk, gave us that choice.
You have to be kidding. The Hurricanes used the same very conservative and patient approach with Boychuk that they used with Sutter, Tlusty, and Bowman. I challenge you to reference even one shift of any NHL game where Boychuk looked unready to play in the NHL in which Boychuk was on the top lines. In fact, to the contrary, the coaches and Forslund were singing Boychuk’s praises when he was called up and when he played, very briefly, with Staal and Ruutu as I recall. It’s a conclusion based on no data.
Again, of course Ennis had an offensive impact — he was playing a top-six role on a good team. Boychuk was playing bottom six on a bad team. That doesn’t take away from the fact that, if you watch the games, Ennis is brutal defensively. Even Sabres fans would say as much, I think.
by Cory Lavalette on Aug 6, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Ennis was brutal defensively, but scary to the other team offensively. It was a trade-off the Bills were willing to accept, at least given the roster available. I can’t imagine the Canes putting Ennis out there. I’m not saying they’d be right to keep Ennis off the ice, but I think they would keep him off.
by curiouscanesfan on Aug 6, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
On reflection, this point seems to contradict the message about Boychuk being given ample opportunity and failing to come through. He got great opportunities and didn’t produce on the one hand, and on the other, you want to throw Cory’s data away because Boychuk played so few games and had such minimal roles.
You’re right about the few games and minimal roles. You can’t be right about both that and the great opportunity Boychuk blew.
by curiouscanesfan on Aug 6, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
What Abramsdoug is describing is exactly the sort of thing I saw with Boychuk. Frankly, I didn’t understand why the Canes’ coaches did things that way. Perhaps the plan was to give Boychuk x minutes on ice but to spend more time on the bench teaching him how the Canes want him to do things. On merit, I thought Boychuk deserved more ice time. I’m sure the Canes are doing what they think is best for his development, but they limited his opportunities.
I would contrast Ennis and Boychuk in one extremely important way that affects how successful they can instantly be on offense in the NHL. In a playoff game I saw, Ennis was far too fast and too shifty with the puck on his stick for any other player on the ice to keep up with him. You couldn’t help watching the guy. Ennis could keep the puck and skate halfway around the rink making defenders look silly, and then make a good pass or get off a shot. He made me think of some of the slickest Russians. Ennis was not as dependent on linemates as Boychuk. In my opinion, Boychuk hasn’t shown he can do what Ennis was doing that night. On the other hand, in what I saw of Ennis, I never saw the slightest sign of Ennis fighting in front of the net or going behind the net to dig out the puck. Boychuk did that relentlessly this season in my opinion.
Boychuk and Ennis may both be small and fast and good skaters, but they’re different types of players. The Bills put Ennis out there in the playoffs to score. I think the Canes put Boychuk out there during the season to learn how the Canes want him to play. This is where my concern comes in about Paul Maurice possibly stifling the development of young offensive talent.
It's About Patience
I think it is quite a fair question to ask whether or not Maurice is comfortable with a player with offensive creativity; but I also think it is not fair to suggest only Maurice has influence over those kinds of decisions. It’s clear to me, at least, that Francis has substantial input into mentoring the young players. I think it was and is a coaching philosophy to be very, very patient with the young players and prospects. I was inpatient with the way Sutter was kept to minimal minutes during his first couple of years and even at the start of this year; but in the end, the entire organization has expertise vastly exceeding my own. I read from commentator after commentator that it is important not to rush young players; so there must be something of substance behind that approach. I thought it was obvious the Hurricane entire coaching staff wants their players to understand how to read defense and how to maintain structure even as the players exercise creativity in their play. At first Boychuk seemed to be focusing on playing good positional defense and did so at the expense of his offense. As he became more comfortable with how he was expected to play, his play became more and more accelerated and effective.
I agree that to me one of the most impressive parts of Boychuk’s game is his tenacity in front of the net and his grit. He bounces up every time he gets hit and he comes back to fight for space. The Hurricanes had a time table for Boychuk and things they wanted to become second nature for him. If one listens to Jim Rutherford, he is very, very enthusiastic about Boychuk and his development. The truth is the entire Hurricanes organization is thrilled with the young talent they have accumulated and they are not going to blow it by putting the kids into situations that hinder their long term development.
Certainly the Canes’ brain trust knows more than I do about player development. For my preferences though, their approach risks demoralizing young offensive talents and delaying their development.
Why is Vagrant talking as though Boychuk is on the verge of being a bust? Three measly goals in 31 games. Extrapolate to 82 games and Boychuk is an 8-goal scorer in the NHL. You don’t use the 14th pick in the draft on an 8-goal scorer. If that’s what you get with such a high choice, you took the wrong player.
When you hold young players back, especially after they actually get to the NHL, are you nurturing development or setting them up to be perceived as and to consider themselves failures? I remember hearing either Boychuk or Bowman interviewed after the game in which one of them scored his first goal and whichever it was sounded awfully sincere when he said, “I finally got that monkey off my back.” That monkey had weighed tons.
Certainly there is risk at the other extreme—putting players out there when they’re not ready and letting experienced NHL players make mincemeat of them. There must be a happy medium between patient nurturing with bottom-six minutes and dooming players to fail by throwing them into major roles that they can’t handle. I have no concern at all about the latter with the Canes. I have a lot of concern with the former, whether it comes from Maurice, Francis, Rutherford, or the whole management structure.
With Boychuk, I think a diet of lean fourth-line minutes risks making him look like and feel like a failure and risks having fans consider him a failure before he’s had much of a chance. With some kids, that could add motivation to prove doubters wrong. With others, it could cause overwhelming frustration and disgust with the Canes for denying them a decent chance—to hell with these guys, I’ll go to a team that wants offense and can use me.
Boychuk hasn’t shown anybody, least of all himself, that he’s going to be a successful scorer in the NHL. Maybe he wasn’t ready to show that, but I think he could have shown much more than he has. I just think the Canes prefer to keep him in a chokehold until he’s doing things exactly the way the NHL staff wants them done, with heavy emphasis on defensive caution. For offensive talents, that may not be the best approach to player development.
My opinion doesn’t matter at all in this. I hope Boychuk has a break-out year and we can all celebrate the wisdom of the Canes’ brain trust in bringing him along as they did. But if I had to bet real money, I think it more likely that we’ll end up next spring with a bunch of young players who haven’t proved themselves after playing a limited number of NHL games in which they were afraid to be aggressive on offense for fear of being sent down to Charlotte if blamed for a rush the other way.
by curiouscanesfan on Aug 6, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the reason Boychuk was given fewer minutes was to help him work on the defensive side of his game. Any player on the Hurricanes is going to be asked to be defensively responsible in his own end, even a scoring winger. I think last year the coaches gave Boychuk one goal and that was to be defensively responsible.
Is it possible to be addicted to hockey?
Defensive Responsibility and Boychuk
I agree. It was obvious to me that the Hurricanes gave Boychuk limited minutes in order to have him experience the NHL from a defensive perspective. As I recall, Boychuk mentioned that the Hurricanes had him looking at each of his shifts in terms of positional play. The first stint with the Hurricanes, Boychuk was clearing having to think where he needed to be in terms of playing how the Hurricanes wanted him to play. It became more and more second nature for him as the season went on and as he went down to Albany to work on his positional play.
Maurice keeps stressing that he wants the team to have structure and to be able to replicate what they achieve game to game. I also understand that a second goal for Boychuk was to work on his acceleration in the first two strides. He is very, very fast; but once he masters the art of instant full stride speed, he will be unstoppable. This year Sutter just blew past defenders with a sudden acceleration that took them by surprise. Boychuk by April, 2010, had vastly improved the strength of his first two strides from where he was when the season started.
Defensive Responsibility and the Canes
I agree that the Canes stressed defensive positionign with Boychuk. They pushed it with Sutter also. The Canes AS AN ORGANIZATION seem committed to two way complete players. This isn’t just a Mo thing, the whole organization is geared towards it. Daniels teaches it at the AHL level. Others have commented on the seemingly seamless insertion of AHL players into the Canes system. That speaks to a system wide commitment. Personally, I like it. On another note, we have friends who were season ticket holders in Albany. They loved Boychuk. They raved about his talent, hustle, and attitude. Not so much with Sutter. He was the one they felt sulked when sent down. Boychuk got raves from them.
good points, ncyankee. I think the Canes commitment to two-way play by the forwards meshes nicely with the emphasis on puck-moving by the D. If the forwards are back-checking there will be opportunities for breakaways and odd-man rushes, and that’s where speed (Boychuk, Cole, etc) and scoring ability (Staal, Jussi, etc) should lead to more points and more power plays.
Didn’t Sutter have a major concussion when he got sent down? Perhaps that looked like sulking, but it would be understandable to have something like that blow up a promising year in the NHL.
by curiouscanesfan on Aug 7, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
My memory was a bit hazy on the sequence of events, so I did some research to refresh it.
Here’s his game log for that season, in which the assignment to the minors looks like it happened in February.
Note that there’s very little going on for young Sutter this season up until that date, with the Doug Weight hit occurring early in the season (October 25th).
His birthday is February 14th (Valentine baby) and he was re-assigned after the February 17th Boston game. Note the ultra-low TOI’s leading up to that game.
Sutter turned 20 on that 2009 birthday and only then was eligible for AHL action. Looks like they were mostly marking time from October to February to get him there.
Not sure how long the concussion aftereffects lingered or how it affected his performance in the AHL (didn’t check that aspect). But could see how he’d be bummed out by the season to date, relegated to minimal minutes with diminished talent players, marking time to be sent down and fight his way back all over again. Might still have even been, yes, feeling a bit hazy still from the hit…which would now be illegal.
Here we are now...entertain us.
The Weight Hit on Sutter and its Aftermath
I heard many different places that Sutter was feeling the effects of the Weight hit for much of the season. When Sutter came back to camp this season, he was fine; but it took him quite a while to get totally back to his game.
USA vs SWE game on now.
I’m watching and tweeting updates on the USA vs SWE game which started at 4pm. You can watch here – and the Team Canada Red vs White games are also available – starting at 5:30.
Dumoulin is back in the lineup for USA and started against SWE’s top Forward line.
Faulk is clearly Captain Power play. USA had a 4 min dbl minor and Faulk then Dumoulin were at the point. Faulk must have taken 5 or 6 shots. The comment was he knows how to blast it from the point. He had a chance to pinch and let one rip that the SWE captain dove in front of or would have scored. the SWE was hurting from that shot.
No score after 1 period – really unlike high scoring previous games. The US defense looks good (best of the week according to commentators). The US offense looked off – they speculate they were out of it with a day off yesterday. Looked better by the end of the PP. Still SWE dominated offensively with even strength chances it seemed. shot count tied at 6-6.
Stats/Gamesheet. Click on USA in scorebox to see roster names w/numbers
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2010 4:42 PM EDT reply actions
After 2, USA looking flat. SWE up 3-0, scored 3 goals in 3 minutes all on PP. Faulk was beat bad on the 3rd one – though this is likely the US’s 3rd best goalie, and perhaps he sh/coulda stopped it. Seems like it wasn’t a tough one.
USA had a goal waived off on PP because net off moorings. It was close call and was a pretty set up w/ shot by Morrin. When on PP, the US players keep sending puck to Faulk like he’s the one to make it happen.
I’m curious to see if they can put it back together in the 3rd period or if they just mail it in.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Third period was more of the same. Couldn’t generate much offense. Final score 4-1. Faulk is in control when he’s on the ice. Dumoulin also played well – though you don’t hear his name much. Neither participated in the goal. Faulk went after a Swede after the final buzzer – (a shove, some words) w/no consequences, but he was definitely unhappy.
SWE went 4 for 9 on PP, USA was 0 for 6.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Boychuk Video for Canes
Here is a link to Boychuk’s assist to Drayson Bowman in the 8-5 Hurricanes victory over the Lightning on April 6, 2010. Sutter, Boychuk, and Bowman were on the power play – which before they were put together was something like 2 out of 21 over the last nine games (that is an approximation from memory having seen the game recently). Sutter dug out the puck and somehow got it Boychuk; who in turn made a move in the slot and took a shot; and Bowman came in and lifted the puck over the goalie into the net.
More Boychuk Video
Here is the link to Boychuk providing two assists in two straight shifts in the first period – one assist to Kostopoulos and one assist to Brind’Amour. The game was March 4, 2010, and the Hurricanes beat the Senators 4 to 1. Despite having two assists in his first early shifts in the first period, for the game he had 11:37 time on ice with 15 shifts. All the shifts were with Brind’Amour and Kostopoulos, other than his 1:17 of power play time. Seriously, what more can a team ask of any player than to get two assists in the first period in about two minutes of playing time.
Boychuk Goals
Here’s a link to the Boychuk Canes goals. All show speed and great eye hand coordinate and a willingness to go to the net.
USA and FIN play at 4pm Saturday and that will conclude the Camp.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Skinner standout in the first game (beyond what McGuire said after yesterday)
So apparently Skinner continues to wow in Team Canada WJC Camp. The game finished about an hour ago and there is no scoresheet available yet. Here are tweets from a TSN writer based in Edmonton.
@TSNRyanRishaug:
2 goals for leblanc in 1st period at jr summer camp. Skinner looks spectacular.
then this:
Games almost over, my three stars, skinner, leblanc, couturier. Honourable mention to dylan olsen. Seguin struggled a bit, as did kassian.
I will be combing teh interwebz for video or at least a scoresheet. This deserves some further investigation. =D
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2010 8:40 PM EDT reply actions
Scoresheet just went up.
Skinner’s Team Red lost 6 -3. Skinner had one (2ndary) assist on 3rd goal. Johansen had 2 Assists; Stefan Elliot, Carter Ashton and Zack Kassian scored for Red. Tyler Seguin doesn’t show up on the sheet at all.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
From what I read… Skinner was actually slotted as the #1 Center on Red team above Tyler Seguin. Not totally surprised, reports are Seguin was looking underwhelming in workouts.
Interesting – I found the TSN recap which is really detailed. It mentions that Red is stacked at Center w/ Seguin, Johansen and Skinner. I assumed Skinner was the 3rd line ctr, but it could have just been written in order of draft pick.
Skinner gets almost no mention.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Aug 6, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Seguin and the WC
Does anybody know why Seguin didn’t make the WC team this year? I thought it was pretty odd at the time. I felt it was clear that Seguin was highly talented and expected him to be on the team. Now it seems Seguin is not tearing up the scrimmages. Any ideas what is up with that?
Boychuk with Staal
On March 25, 2010, Canes played the Capitals at the RBC. Due to injuries, Boychuk/Staal/LaRose served as the first line. Boychuk played quite well – which I recall not only from being at the RBC, but from re-watching. I am watching it the again now. Nobody can suggest the Capitals were going through the motions. Canes won 3 to 2 in overtime. It’s a good example of Boychuk having the speed to stay up with Staal and LaRose.
My take on Boychuk
I have seen many players wash out in the NHL over the years. The common denominator seems to be an inability to defend. The approach the Canes have with young talent is defense first. The time for young prospects to form good defensive habits is early and often. The offensive talent they possess well come out…. After they have learned defensive responsibility. Sutter is a great example of how this approach looks when it works. The Canes aren’t just drafting talent, they are paying attention to coachability too. Boychuk is an impact player. He did not take shifts off or sulk or do anythingthat Canes fans should perceive as negative. Abramsdoug is right on with his observations. When I see criticism of players that is without merit, I am embarrassed as a hockey fan because I realize that while our fanbase has come a long way, there are still some percentage of the fans that just don’t get it. It is that type of fan that really scares me. That is the type of impatient fan that will not pay to see the team rebuild or enjoy the development process. It is the building process and the feeling that we have watched the talent grow that makes a cup victory so sweet. When all the experts wouldn’t give our team the time of day, those of us that really have taken the time to embrace the team really knew we have something special…
And so we are watching the emergence of a highly talented, defensively sound, fast team again. The development curve is understood by JR and company. We all should be very happy and impressed with the professionalism shown by our management team.
The talent being assembled here is second to none. Sit back, relax, and watch.
by KenRab on Aug 8, 2010 10:14 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Oddly Enough
The poster that was posting here under the alias of “Vagrant”, was actually a poster that was lifting my posts from another forum and using them here out of context and poorly defending my viewpoints.
The ad hominem attacks regarding my viewpoint, as expressed through this poser, are a bit befuddling. For example, KenRab stating he was “embarrassed as a hockey fan”, when he sees criticism without merit by his obviously objective viewpoint.
I would like to offer that while I am certainly not an expert, I am not new to the Hurricanes. I am not new to prospect watching. I was here when Nikos Tselios was one of our best prospects. When Jean Marc Pelletier was going to be a star. I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to how this team handles developmental hurdles and Boychuk is certainly at a critical stage in his development this year. Perhaps far more critical than many here are ready to acknowledge.
I have compared him to Scottie Upshall in the past in terms of being an October birthdate in his draft year and having 6-8 months of head start on players in his draft year in terms of development and readiness. Coming into the draft he was viewed as a very safe prospect with a somewhat limited upside by virtue of not having what many would consider transcendent skill. He played numerous roles in Lethbridge and his gritty play drew the attention of Hockey Canada, and he played a similar role internationally at the Under 20’s.
What changed when he went professional last year is that aggression in his game was subdued to a degree. He started to focus too much on the offensive end of the ice and abandoned the traits that saw him drafted so high, which were his willingness to battle through checking, the willingness to play the body, and the penchant for taking hits to make plays. Those were the only factors that could justify negating the size concerns that he possessed at the time he was selected. If you’re not big you have to play big.
What we have is a player with an identity crisis. For all intents and purposes, he should have made the team out of camp last year considering how close he was to making it the year prior. However, he was sent back to Albany. He played hard there for a while, but for a period of time there were games where he would simply not look as engaged as others and he played a style more of an observer or a floater if you will. Jeff Daniels alluded to him needing to work on his consistency from shift to shift and this was the reasoning behind that statement. There were times when he was highly engaged during games and periods when he disengaged. It’s why a player of his relative skill didn’t really tear it up in the AHL as much as the aforementioned Tyler Ennis. Tripp also mentioned it several times over the broadcast that Boychuk had these problems, so I am not exactly sure why that particular revelation was such a shock to some. And to ask me to “find” those quotes would be a fallacy of unreasonable expectations. There were 82 games last year. But my memory does not betray me. It was mentioned more than once that Boychuk was having trouble with sustained effort in the AHL and that being the reason that other players were getting in the rotation at the NHL level. He didn’t step up and claim the job the way management wanted to see, so they looked elsewhere and picked up a few players that they thought would. Tlusty, Osala, and Nash are among them.
Is this a total condemnation of his future? Not at all. However, to ignore the mounting evidence that something went awry with his development at this point is a bit naive. He has been supplanted by Jiri Tlusty on our depth chart and perhaps several others. This will be Boychuk’s THIRD camp in the NHL and at some point he has to go back to the game that brought him here as opposed to trying to be an imitation of Ray Whitney because he’s simply not that savvy with the puck. At this point, his projection will rest entirely on what he decides to do in regards to his play style. He has to be more physical. He has to be willing to get his hands dirty on a game to game and even shift to shift basis before he’s a solid NHL player.
If that observation flies in the face of what many around here believe, then so be it. I never intended for it to be a popular sentiment, but here in context I am trying to simply clean up the mess that this poster made here by impersonating me and adding some ambiguity to my statements.
Was following the discussion at HockeyFutures as to the mistaken identity here, so I’m at least not surprised by the news. Glad we have things all straightened out now.
I made a casual statement in passing the other day that this was almost a make or break season for Boychuk, not as a NHL player, but perhaps as a cog for us, and damned near had my head taken off. :-D
Wasn’t an important core belief of mine, just a passing observation, so I let it go. But, as a fellow observer of watching ‘em come and watching ’em go since the Tanabe draft myself, we need look no further than Andrew Ladd’s experience with the Canes if there’s not a good and natural fit as to what the org wants.
However, (as I’m sure you would agree, but for the benefit of others), if such a thing may occur, it is not necessarily a bad thing. If there’s a slight mismatch in what a prospect’s total package appears to be versus the org expectations for the role, that’s what the trade route is all about. Some other org may be all about what is seemingly off-balance to us.
The Andrew Ladd for Tuomo Ruutu trade is again a good example of a fine-tuning going on with both orgs as to what they wanted from a player in that slot. The worst thing that happens is that Boychuk turns out being traded in a similar manner to make an adjustment in the assets.
I have absolutely no doubt he’s NHL material in some role. And, I have high odds on him having a breakout year and sticking here.
We’re just saying…
Here we are now...entertain us.
Andrew Ladd
My impression is that Andrew Ladd was written off by Laviolette. If anybody has more information on the Andrew Ladd situation I would appreciate it. All I have is hearsay on that issue.
I am absolutely certain that something as important as a first-round draft trade was not a coach’s call.
No one gave up on Ladd. The org just came to a consensus conclusion that they needed different talents in the asset.
After all, the boy is just not blessed with “hockey sense” and wasn’t going to work out as Staal’s winger, the role for which he was drafted.
The trade for Ruutu came closer to finding an asset to fill that role, that’s all.
Here we are now...entertain us.
Ruutu versus Ladd
To be certain, I would make the Ruutu for Ladd trade one million times out of one million. The team really needed what Ruutu had to offer; and it was a great move for the team and fans from the moment Ruutu’s skates hit the ice.
IIRC, JR had his eyes on Tuomo for a long time before he finally snagged him.
Phoblographer and Finn Aficionado
SISU
by Jamie Kellner on Aug 9, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That is indeed Jim Rutherford’s method of operation. I am hoping Budish, Bjugstad, and Brock Nelson are on his radar screen in the hopes of getting one of those guys if their clubs lose patience with them – although if Osala or Jared Staal develop the way I personally think they can, it becomes much, much less significant down the road.
Boychuk
I disagree strongly with your assertion that something went awry with Boychuk’s development. I strongly doubt that anybody who spoke with Canes management or heard Canes management speak would make that statement. I also strongly doubt that anybody who watched videos of the Canes in the months of February, March, and April would make that statement. Further, I would be astonished if anybody watching the Albany Rats over the course of the regular season and particularly during the AHL playoffs would make that statement.
I don’t know what games your memory is referencing when you make that statement. I think it is inarguable after watching videos of Boychuk’s play that he improved dramatically over the course of the year in (1) his positional awareness, (2) keeping his feet moving, and (3) the power of his initial acceleration. By March and April, Boychuk had as many if not more productive shifts per time on the ice as anybody on the Canes team. I would reference, the 7 to 5 victory over the Lighting at Tampa Bay. 13:56 in the first period. Boychuk, Sutter, and Bowman are on the power play. I mentioned in another post, but the Hurricanes at that point were 2 for 31 on the power play in nine games. Maurice put the young players on the ice. Sutter battles behind the net and won the puck. He got the puck to Boychuk, who blasted around the net, and hammered two shots on goal. Bowman came darting in and made a beautiful shot over the goalie’s shoulder. Boychuk won a similar battle to get the puck to Bowman for his second goal with a line of Boychuk/Dwyer/Bowman.
If you watch the video at intermission of the Pens game, you’ll hear Boychuk being interviewed and explaining how Francis would work with himj on the plane showing Boychuk (and McBain among others) videos of his shifts and showing him how to make positioning second nature and how to keep his feet moving.
During the AHL playoffs, Boychuk/Dalpe/Osala were the best line for the Rats; and his overall play was outstanding. I disagree as well that Boychuk is in a make or break year. The Hurricanes organization is thrilled with Boychuk and they will give him whatever time he needs. The question of consistency was early on, he would tender to float or wander in his positioning. You could almost see him suddenly realize, “wow, I am floating,” and then start to move his feet.
On the other hand, a very valid question is whether Boychuk and the other young players can accommodate themselves to the grind of 82 games. One has to remember that Boychuk was given limited time on ice, often with slower players. Every time Boychuk was paired with Staal, Sutter, Dwyer, or Dalpe, good things happened. Good things happened often when he was paired with Brind’Amour; but the advantage of Boychuk’s speed was sometimes undermined by playing with slower players.
Few players have Whitney’s vision. On the other hand, very, very few players have Boychuk’s speed, great hands, and willingness to drive to the net. I would be very interested in reading what Albany Rats regular season games and playoff games you watched from start to finish. Similarly, what NHL games do you rely upon for your conclusions. If you are solely relying on a vague impression that is your right; but I suggest you make about Boychuk.
More probative, even standing alone are the productivity stats that Cory collected:
To tie this all in a bow … only six Canes (Pothier, too, but not counting him b/c a lot came w/ WSH) had a positive Goal For/Goals Against Per 60 Minutes last season.
Player: GFON/60 – GAON/60 =
McBain: 3.68 – 2.53 = +1.15
Jokinen: 3.00 – 2.42 = +0.58
Staal: 3.57 – 3.17 = +0.40
Boychuk: 2.72 – 2.33 = +0.39
Tlusty: 2.10 – 1.84 = +0.26
Carson: 2.34 – 2.11 = +0.23
CanesCountry.com: An Eye On Carolina Hockey
Additionally, if you factor in the lines Boychuk was one when he got these goals and if you actually watch the videos of the goals, it is impressive.
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