Five Observations: Panthers At Hurricanes
by Cory Lavalette on Jan 4, 2011 11:33 AM EST
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The Carolina Hurricanes rallied from a 3-1, third-period deficit to tie the Panthers and force overtime before losing in the extra session on a Bryan Allen slapshot. The loss broke Carolina's three-game winning streak, but the team still has seven points in its last four games with upcoming road games at the Rangers and Florida this week. Here are five observations from last night's loss.
1. For years, the Southeast Division has held the moniker of "Southleast," with the division boasting one and maybe two teams worthy of mention come playoff time. Much has been made this year about how deep the Southeast is this season, with Tampa Bay and Atlanta pushing the Capitals for the division title, and Carolina hanging around the playoff race despite a budget rollback and much younger team. But how about the Panthers? No one expected the team that shipped out first-liner Nathan Horton to have a winning record (18-17-2) almost halfway through the season, but the team has been led by Tomas Vokoun's goaltending and a scoring-by-committee offense that has the Panthers plus-seven in scoring differential. One person who hasn't gotten the memo about the overachieving Panthers is News & Observer columnist Luke DeCock.
DeCock's column took the position that losing to Florida on home ice is akin to dropping an RBC Center date with the Devils, Islanders or Oilers (the Canes are 3-0 against the trio, the NHL's bottom three team's this season). It's not. Was Carolina's effort the equivalent of the ones they put forth vs. New Jersey or Ottawa? No, at least not until later in the game. But discounting Florida — even with backup Scott Clemmesen in net instead of Vokoun — as DeCock did suggests Carolina is leaps and bounds better than Florida. Coach Peter DeBoer's team, like the Hurricanes, has played more games on the road (21) than at home (16), yet still can stake a claim to being in the playoff hunt. Much like the Southeast no longer merits the "least" title, this year's incarnation of the Panthers deserves better from DeCock.
2. GM Jim Rutherford and coach Paul Maurice have some big decisions to make once Jussi Jokinen and Jiri Tlusty are ready to return to the lineup. Call-ups Zach Boychuk and Zac Dalpe have combined for five goals over the past three games, seizing the opportunity given to them due to injuries among the forward lines. Boychuk broke through once he was elevated to the team's top nine, scoring twice against Ottawa and then rallying Carolina with his tally Monday vs. the Panthers. Dalpe received some extra ice time against Florida after scoring for the second straight game, something he has done while playing less than 10 minutes in both outings since his promotion. Both look ready for full-time NHL roles, but Carolina will need to make room for them ... somehow.
3. Speaking of filling in, Carolina has looked good on defense without minute-muncher Joni Pitkanen in the lineup, with Jamie McBain, Tim Gleason and Jay Harrison absorbing the majority of the extra ice time. McBain has averaged more than 3:30 of power play time in the past three games (compared to 2:33 on the season), while Gleason has seen power play time (nearly two minutes a game) and Harrison has averaged more than 21 minutes a night (14:26 on the year). It raises the question of what do about Pitkanen's impending unrestricted free agency and also the return the team could get if it decided to deal the 27-year-old Finn. Gleason, McBain and Joe Corvo have all proven they can handle being in the top two pairings, while Harrison's play this season has been much better than most people's expectations. With Brett Carson and Bryan Rodney available, and Bobby Sanguinetti — who is out for this season — in the system, losing Pitkanen and possibly Ian While (also a UFA) doesn't seem crippling, especially if a young blueliner came back to Carolina in a deal involving one or both.
4. The Canes outhit the Panthers 46-19 in the game, led by, no surprise, Tuomo Ruutu with eight. But Carolina had five others with at least four hits: Patrick Dwyer (six), Gleason (five), Boychuk (five), Eric Staal (four) and Ryan Carter (four). There's no denying Maurice has amped up the team's forechecking efforts, a fact illustrated in the number of hits from the Hurricanes’ forwards, and it's led to more balanced scoring.
5. It can't be said enough: the NHL needs to find a way to televise every game that is played. Kudos to the Hurricanes for providing the arena feed to Center Ice, but it was only (legally) available to those in Canada due to the NHL's TV deal with Versus that restricts Monday broadcasting. With the league coming off another U.S. ratings win with this year's Winter Classic, it's embarrassing that there are still games diehard fans can't see because of the Versus contract.
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Nice Work
Cory,
Great job and excellent observations. Florida is not a slack team and last night they outplayed the Hurricanes for much of the game despite the back to back. With Boychuk’s 3 goals and 1 assist in the four games in which he got over 10 minutes of TOI, and Dalpe’s 2 goals in two games with limited minutes, they need to stay at Carolina. I suspect Jim Rutherford is burning up some phone lines trying to make a trade. One key to a successful Hurricanes 2010-2011 season is scoring from players in addition to Staal, Skinner, Ruutu, and Jokinen. Boychuk and Dalpe add offensive firepower and creativity along with physicality. Other than the fact Jim Rutherford probably has to order a case of TUMS to deal with the stress of trying to fit talented, young forwards on the roster, it’s all good.
Re: Hurricanes
1. If you are using last nights Florida game as a yardstick I think you are off base on your analysis of the state of the Hurricanes defense with or without Pitkanen. Florida spent most of the 1st two periods in our zone and should have scored more than one goal. They had several open net chances and hit the post 4 times. I’ll say this, it is very hard to judge the ability of our defensemen when nobody skated during the first two periods as is all too often the case with this team.
2. This team is underachieving in my opinion. Florida does not have the talent that we have yet they are only one point behind us in the standings (taking into account the game in hand they have on us). Now are they overachieving. If they are, then I would say their COACHES are getting more out of their players than our coaches are.
3. Our only remedy the team’s lack of effort seams to be to demote Samsonov to the 4th line. He seems to be the scapegoat for all the others. Maurice needs to get on the stick and get this team moving. Otherwise, as I see it, he becomes our most expensive asset when you factor the lost revenue from missing the playoffs with his salary. We show no imagination or identifiable offensive scheme, our power play isn’t up to snuff, our penalty kill is subpar, and our game-to-game effort is poor. I say that the coaching staff bears the ultimate responsibility for these maladies. Last year we excused the coaching by saying we had too many injuries, this year some want to give the coaching staff a bye saying we are young. These same people probably will say next year that we are in transition we we fail to produce on the ice. I look at Tampa Bay and see a team with virtually no goal tending or defense at the top of our division. I see Florida nipping at our heals. Both these teams have serious deficiencies yet they are producing better results than one would expect from their talent. That’s because these teams do not take as many nights off and fail to put forth the effort. I despise Tortorella, but I have to say he’s taken a goal tender and a bunch of average forwards and done more with them than our coaches have done with our team.
1. An issue that has cropped up with or without Pitkanen. It was an overall assessment of the last three games. Did anyone have a moment during those games where they thought “I really wish we had Joni out there right now”? And that’s not a bash on Joni, who I like, it’s just an assessment of how things have been of late.
2. I’d say the Canes hold maybe a slight edge in talent. The Panthers D is underrated, IMO, and their tandem in net is very good. Booth is still rounding into form, and they’re getting some good contributions from some young guys up front (Santorelli, Frolik).
3. I don’t know where to begin when you say Tampa has less talent. Goaltending has been bad, but they’re not beating teams with goaltending, they’re beating teams by filling the net.
by Cory Lavalette on Jan 4, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Did anyone have a moment during those games where they thought "I really wish we had Joni out there right now"?
Last night, when the Canes couldn’t get the puck out of the zone and they had to have a forward bring the puck out of the zone. I really felt like Pitkanen’s passing and puck moving capabilities were missed. Until then I hadn’t missed him that much.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
I was focusing more on our ability to gain the offensive zone without him.
There have been times in past seasons that when Joni went down, we just seemingly could not skate the puck into the offensive zone, having to dump and chase it most every time.
I didn’t see that problem at all last night, nor against Jersey. We entered pretty much with impunity.
As for the outs, if you mean was there less icing due to Pitkanen blindly throwing it down the ice, then yes I noticed that. :-D
Here we are now...entertain us.
+1
Pitkinen’s passing has been mostly way off the mark stretch passes.
for every good pits pass
there are 3 turnovers, 5 blind passes, 2 slap passes (when he’s open for a shot), and 2 or 3 non-hustle plays where he lets the other team get to the puck first.
"Mo Must Go...Unless You're in Love with .500 Hockey and Undeveloped Young Talent"
As for the outs, if you mean was there less icing due to Pitkanen blindly throwing it down the ice, then yes I noticed that. :-D
Ha! +2 for the laugh.
I think you are right when you say the Canes did have the ability to skate the puck into the offensive zone last night and against the Devils. My only problem with that was it generally ended up being a winger doing that which limited passing options once the puck was in the zone. Perhaps that’s just a coaching change that needs to happen to address that.
I think Florida’s forecheck was entirely too effective for the talent they have on their team and the talent the Canes possess. To me it seemed like the d could have used someone who can make a good outlet pass once in a while or at the least beat the first guy one on one and then get the puck to an open wing in the neutral zone. Now, I think trading Joni could bring something back in return to get that, but that doesn’t mean that last night I didn’t think we could have used his services.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
That is one thing I’ve noticed over the past couple of games. Of course we are not playing the league elite, but I think our defense has done alright in Pits absence. I noticed one play last night, where McBain just skated up the ice, gained the zone all by himself, stopped and waited for the other Canes to get into position. That is partially on Florida for not forcing the pass, but man that is nice to see!
I am a fan of Pits and would love to keep him around (if the price is reasonable), but I think that I’m leaning more to trading him for additional assets. Last nights game was a horrible performance by 2 defenseman in particular (Gleason & Corvo). If Corvo actually showed up and played better, I don’t think the “we really missed Joni” posts would be out in such full force. Corvo as our elder statesman, needs to play better than he did last night.
Staal, Skinner, and ?; almost a NHL level 1st line!
Should we be more concerned about the defense’s ability to carry the puck into the zone or their ability to play defense? The team is struggling to get the puck out without Pitkanen. Saying he would not help would be ignorant – he is our best puck moving defenseman at the moment. Getting hemmed in the zone was a problem the last two games, and those were against two weaker teams with not as talented forwards. Not to mention the 4 posts and countless whiffs by Florida in that 1st period. Imagine if we played Pittsburgh.
I do think the ability for us to gain the zone has been improved, but not the defense’s ability. The wingers have been carrying it in fine (which, in all honestly, has a lot to do with Boychuk’s and Dalpe’s extra hustle, as I see they are the ones frequently taking the puck in successfully). The defense is the same I believe. And remember, Florida and NJ both are poor at backchecking and have a worse defense. NJ had one competent top 4 defenseman when we played them. Everyone on our team was making them look like Swiss cheese.
I'm glad it wasn't just me
who thought luke was off-base dismissing florida. it’s a tough division this year, period. i agree with abramsdoug that we have a lot of good talent to try and fit in. I go back to a post made months ago about JR needing to s**t or get off the pot w/the young talent, i.e. bring them up and ship off veterans or just keep them in charlotte and make a charge with our vets. it’s clear the vets aren’t giving us what we need, so why not ship them out and bring up the boys on a permanent basis?
also agree with foxtrotsierra on the coaching needing to go in a different direction. this team scrambles around aimlessly every game w/the exception of the NJ game.
"Mo Must Go...Unless You're in Love with .500 Hockey and Undeveloped Young Talent"
Salary Cap / Floor
Question; How does the Salary Cap floor weigh in to your suggestion of “bring them up and ship off veterans”. Doesn’t each team have to spend a certain amount on their team. If so, how do we do that if every veteran is shipped out?
Shoot the puck!!!!!!
it depends on the individual contract
of the veteran you’re shipping out and the deal made with the other team.
"Mo Must Go...Unless You're in Love with .500 Hockey and Undeveloped Young Talent"
My wife brought to my attention...
Dalpe = Link
Right? We need a photoshop guru to make this happen.
Like Zelda’s link?
Nope, this guy.
it always burns within
the downward spiral never ends
when driven into sin
your salvation's found in a sinner's deed
by Douchebag St John on Jan 4, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
funny, but...
Yes, Link from Zelda. When they interviewed him between periods last night his hair was all spiked out and everything.
by chrisbrasfield on Jan 4, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Rodney and Carson should never be mentioned in the same sentence as Pitkanen and White. They are #6/7 call-up types, and that’s being generous in the case of Rodney.
Like I said, it was Gleason, Harrison and McBain who picked up the minutes. I didn’t suggest Carson and Rodney were replacements for Pitkanen and White. But Carson is a capable No. 6, Rodney is good for depth, and I said getting a young D back in a deal for one of them would make things on D still serviceable.
by Cory Lavalette on Jan 4, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Joe Corvo is already overextended as it is. He should be a #4 defenseman at best. And do you really believe that Jay Harrison is a 20+ minute a night guy? And yes, Pitkanen and White would be replaced in the lineup by Rodney/Carson/Sanguinetti/young D in your scenario. Therefore they are their replacements. The fact that Harrison and a total joke like Corvo would be counted onto pick up minutes is disturbing.
You said they shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence. Like I said, i wasn’t suggesting “ship out Pitkanen and White and give their jobs to Rodney and Carson.”
Corvo’s been a top two or three since he came here, and he’s evolved from an ES and PP guy to an all-situations guy. I’m the first to admit that he’s a streaky guy, but to suggest he’s a No. 4 at best is untrue. He was a top-four on Washington the end of last season — so if he can by a No. 4 on the Prez Trophy team, I’m pretty sure he can be at least a 3 here.
As for Harrison, it’s hard to discount that he’s been much better than expected. Should he play 20 minutes every night? No. But he’s earned a spot in top six, something I didn’t think he was capable of.
by Cory Lavalette on Jan 4, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
What you said made it seem like you were saying they could replace Pitkanen and White.
Harrison should be a 6th defenseman playing 15 minutes a game. McBain should be developing on the 3rd pairing for at least this season. White is a 3rd pairing guy on most teams. Corvo is a 2nd pairing guy. Gleason is a borderline 1st/2nd pairing player. Rodney is an AHL player. Carson is injury depth. Pitkanen, or at least a player somewhat equal, is needed.
The whole point was that several picked up the extra slack in his absence. How is that saying that Carson and Rodney are filling their jobs?
Furthermore, McBain deserves a top four role. He’s always been a slow starter, and each of the past two seasons he’s had to refocus on his D at the start of the season and then had his offense come around. He has six points in the past 10 games and has been getting better and better in his own end.
by Cory Lavalette on Jan 4, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
With Brett Carson and Bryan Rodney available, and Bobby Sanguinetti — who is out for this season — in the system, losing Pitkanen and possibly Ian While (also a UFA) doesn’t seem crippling
I don’t think he deserves that role yet. Maybe next year. But I still don’t believe he is that good defensively or that good or a skater to be matched up against other team’s speedy forwards.
Pitkanen and White and Trade Possibilities
I thought Pitkanen was missed last night; and particularly on being able to stay up with Florida’s speed. I like White’s game, but I have no issue with the idea that Jim Rutherford could potentially trade White for a young Tim Gleason kind of defender. I thought Tim Gleason had to take on too many minutes last night and he seemed a little bit leg weary. I’d hate to see Pitkanen traded even though there are some puck moving defensemen in the system who are highly talented.
Well don’t forget we traded Johnson for Gleason (and change), so white for another Gleason is quite optimistic!
Johnson didn't end up being too bad a pickup for LA
pretty much evened-out
"Mo Must Go...Unless You're in Love with .500 Hockey and Undeveloped Young Talent"
At least even…. and Johnson is still really young. He didn’t want to be here, clear enough, but he is a much more skilled guy than Gleason. JR was dealing from a weak position, and did pretty well. Still not ideal situation.
You may be forgetting an important part of that deal, which was dumping Oleg Tverdovsky’s $2.5M contract for not only the remainder of that season, but the next season, as well.
So, that turned into “$2.5M player of your choice” for the next season, in addition to Gleason.
Here we are now...entertain us.
Johnson for Gleason, and some more
At the time I first heard of the deal, it sounded a little whacky to me. It was another example of Jim Rutherford having a good read on the character of players. Gleason has been great for the Hurricanes. It’s really hard to find hitting defensemen with size, speed, and offensive savvy; but some teams in the playoff hunt may need White’s ability to contribute immediately and may be willing to give up in return a young Gleason kind of player. It’s a hope, not a plan, as you point out eloquently.
I don’t mind White going at all. He is not a significant part of the blue line.
I agree with Tim Gleason’s minutes. Easily the hardest thing to replace with Joni is his 25+ minutes a game. Adding to that Carson’s lack of ice time, the defense are trying to make up 30+ minutes a game. Think about who are making that time up. Corvo (~23 before), McBain (~18 before), Gleason (~22 before) and Harrison (~12 before) are now playing 25+ minutes. White’s time has stayed around the same 18 minutes.
There is a reason only Pitkanen plays 25+ a game, and that he because he is the only one who can handle it every game. If the other players could handle it, they would probably be up there with him. They are getting worn down and I think it is obvious.
Paul Branecky tweeted that Pitkanen, Jokinen, and Tlusty are not going on the 2-game trip. Dalpe, Boychuk and Carson have 2 more games at least.
Also, I asked Branecky about the Emergency call up situation. He replied that the 2 players who don’t require waivers (Boychuk, Dalpe) do not automatically need to be reassigned when the injured forwards return to action. Carson does go back. Interesting situation ahead.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Jan 4, 2011 1:07 PM EST reply actions
Also, I asked Branecky about the Emergency call up situation. He replied that the 2 players who don’t require waivers (Boychuk, Dalpe) do not automatically need to be reassigned when the injured forwards return to action.
I had looked into this also, thinking this must be a common situation and wondering if there wasn’t just a paperwork option to keep them here instead of physically returning them.
And, sure enough, despite language in the CBA requiring them to be “returned promptly” to their club when the injured player for which they are named has returned to the roster:
A Player on Loan to a club of any league affiliated with the League may be Recalled from such Loan under emergency conditions at any time for the duration of the emergency only following which he must be returned promptly to the club from which he was Recalled. [emphasis added]
Sure enough, there is a transfer form that must be completed at the end of the emergency recall in which the player is then either assigned back to the club from which he was “borrowed” (although he’s technically on loan from the major club’s roster to the minor club), or simply converted to “regular Recall”:
When an emergency condition terminates, the Club must submit a
transfer form indicating whether the Player’s status has converted
to regular Recall or is Loaned to his minor league club.
Here we are now...entertain us.
Can J.R. Visit Every Intermission?
I was not at this game, so kind of hard to comment…I just watched the stats during the Juniors game…was happy to see them come back but somewhat in DeCock’s corner on this one. Is Fla as automatic win? Far from it, but why can’t we see the effort for 60 minutes to get the full two points? Especially against an equal or lower ranked team. With their backup goalie. At home. This is what is most frustrating about this team and I point the finger at Mo. J.R. should never had to come in and make the statement he did at the Toronto game….why the heck is the coaching staff not doing that?
I don’t get it and guess I never will.
Of course you are
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
i am ok with the 1 point we got considering we were LOSING going into the 3rd
and really just look at all the teams that florida beat this season.
All we have to do is hopefully learn from this and watch the no.8th montreal hopefully lose 2wo while we win 3 and we’ll be ok
Peas out.
Mi piace l'hockey su ghiaccio.
l'hockey è buono qui .. sì?
As far as the D-Men go
So far Pitkanen hasn’t been missed, I especially don’t miss his sloppy passes and neutral zone turnovers, but when he has his head in the game he’s a great asset to have on the powerplay. I hate to be greedy but I’d like to see White stick around, his play all around has been mostly solid (thinking more overall since he’s been here as opposed to just last night) and I really don’t think Carson nor anybody available via trade can fill in there without the defense dropping off.
+1 zippy8
Good positive comments. Keep in mind the Canes have won 7 out of 11. Also while their sluggish start to the game was/is a concern, they did come back to tie and at least get a point. One can argue that the boys should have taken 2 points from a team below them in the standings, but playing poorly for most of the game yet recovering to get a point is how teams make the playoffs. They got a point when they maybe didn’t deserve one.
The Good News out of the Game
It really is worth repeating that having Dalpe, Boychuk, and Harrison score and get the team a point in a game they probably didn’t deserve to win is a big deal. By taking advantage of their additional time on the ice, both Dalpe and Boychuk are making it hard for the Canes organization to send them back to Charlotte. Whatever else happens this season, having Skinner, Dalpe, and Boychuk playing on a team competing for a playoff spot will be a major boost for their development. The chances of the Hurricanes making the playoffs goes up significantly if those two are on the Canes team. They add offensive firepower to a team very much in need of more scoring.
This is a point worth repeating. I hope this is Boychuk’s permanent move to the top six. I hope Dalpe emerges as the second line center we need (so far he only has one good goal, one lucky goal, and his FO aren’t stellar either). At any rate, these two need to stay up, even if it means waiving Mr. Penis and demoting Samsonov.
Yes 1 point is
Better than Zero Points for the game..but I am and remain grossly disappointed as and no one here even said as much…that if the canes could and did come out like they were ALL on fire and embarresed NJ…what pray tell but air stopped,prevented or made it impossible for the “entire team” ( and NOT just some) to repeat and do the Florida what they did to NJ ? Yes we had good plays and players doing good things despite being down 3-1 but this cardiac Canes stuff is not the answer…If i was MO or JR trust me another butt chewing and well worded promises would have been made after period 1 &2…but heck…I’m just a fan…Yada,Yada,Yada..And don’t think the rangers are are going to be gracious host either…if they can…they will do all they can to know the canes down and keep them down…of did we forget that as well ?? In Closing…yes the edition of the canes is better than last seasons..so to this fan..i expect 7 demand more than just a hair above 500 play!!
The moment you write off the Hurricanes,
they make you look bad !!
Bad News for Cam
MA Fluery won the ASG fan-ballot for goalies. Fleury, Price, Quick, and Thomas are pretty much locks at this point.
Only two spots left and there is some tough competition with Halak, Hiller, Pavelec, and Vokoun all having pretty good years. Not to mention perennial All-Stars Luongo and Lundqvist also missing.
Besides Fleury (who honestly shouldn’t be there), Price, and Thomas, the only other goalie I would consider an all-star goalie for play this season besides Ward is Pavelec, who probably won’t make it in (mainly from being from a small market). Ward also has an advantage over the other goalies in that he is from the hosting team.
I can’t see there not being two Hurricanes at the Raleigh ASG, and if you had to pick two Canes stars, they pretty much have to be Ward and Staal. Pitkanen is no allstar, and our only other viable options are who?
No one
My only concerns are the limited spots for Ward’s position and the competition out there. But Ward and Staal are the only All Stars on this team, right now any way.
I’ll get yelled at by all the other Caniacs that did this, but honestly, all the LaRose votes make us Caniacs look like jokes.
Two words
Rory Fitzpatrick. Only the hardcore Canadian media would call us jokes for voting for Rosey after Vancouver almost got Rory on an All-Star team.
it always burns within
the downward spiral never ends
when driven into sin
your salvation's found in a sinner's deed
by Douchebag St John on Jan 4, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
if you want to call
voting for someone who will NOT get on or play in a ASG a joke,look ack at the lat two elections & who got elected …but never forget we of the Caniac Nation aren’t even supposed to exist as the Canes are none team according to “some” hockey pundents…Ha !!!!!!!!
The moment you write off the Hurricanes,
they make you look bad !!
I don’t think you can compare the Vote for Rory campaign to LaRose. Lots of fans, league wide, joined in the effort. AND, the main difference is that it was almost successful and had a lot of public exposure. I can’t say it was the first internet campaign, but it certainly is the best known and most successful. LaRose getting the most votes from Cans fans is not exactly the same thing. I don’t think there are enough Canes fans to have pushed Staal into the starting six, but it certainly would have been nice if he’d garnered the most votes, imo.
Jonathan Quick is a lock. No questions about that.
The advantage of the host team comes in the form of fan-voting. The Canes did next to nothing in that aspect and missed a great opportunity. Big mistake in my opinion. Pleasing the home fans vs. pleasing some of the biggest markets in hockey pretty much cancel each other out.
In reality, Ward has not been markedly better this year than Hiller, Pavelec, or Vokoun and I would be pretty shocked if Luongo didn’t make it on his name alone (he was in the freaking ASG commercial after all). I’d like to see Cam in, but he has to play much better than last night (consistently) if he wants a chance.
Brodeur’s in that commercial too.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Jan 4, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
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