Blueline Trade Looming in Carolina?
by Bob Wage on Oct 25, 2011 10:24 AM EDT
in Carolina Hurricanes Analysis
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PrintWith yesterday's announced recall of rookie defenseman, Justin Faulk, the Carolina Hurricanes started some tongue wagging among their faithful following. Carolina management has made no secret that they love Faulk's game, to the point that Jim Rutherford called him a "top four defenseman" when asked if he made the team out of training camp.
But the Canes are in a bit of a quandary. They now have eight defensemen on the roster and no room for Faulk to play. (He is supposed to sit out tonight.) That leads many to believe that there might be a deal in the works sooner rather than later on Tobacco Road.
Yesterday during a fan luncheon, Rutherford reportedly verified those suspicions when he said "a top six defenseman" is in play.
So, who will it be? Let's take a look at each defenseman and wonder a bit out loud if they might be on their way out of town.
Joslin has yet to play this season and is not in the top six, so we will eliminate him from this list immediately. Moving him does not make room for Faulk, and while he could be included in a package deal, it's doubtful.
The Finn is currently the most valuable commodity the Canes have on the back end. He plays in all situations and leads the team in average time on ice by over three minutes a game to his closest teammate, (24:37 to 21:37). He could bring back the biggest return, but does the team improve with him gone?
He's in the first year of a three year deal and his cap hit is $4.5 million, which many feel is a bargain.
Gleason has been back to his Olympic season form so far this year and is one of the league's leaders in plus/minus. It would be surprising ifl the Canes moved their alternate captain, but he is in the final year of his contract and with a glut of defensemen coming up the pipeline, who knows if he is in the club's long term plans?
He makes $3.5 million this year with a cap hit of $2.75.
The newly signed Kaberle seems to be a target among fans who were hoping for more from this former All Star. He has looked good on the powerplay and does make a nice first pass out of his own end, but it seems that he's yet to find a comfort zone playing defense. He's probably on many fan's wishlist to be traded, but did Rutherford sign him for too much for too long? Is he untradable?
He is in the first year of a three year deal which has a cap hit of $4.25 million.
Allen has turned into a bit of a fan favorite because he brings a much needed edge to the blueline. He leads the team in shots blocked and is among the league leaders in that stat as well. It would be tough for many to see him go, but he does have value and is also in the final year of his deal which pays him $3.15 million this year.
(Note: He has a no-trade clause which he did not exercise when he approved the deal to come to Carolina last year. Under his current contract, he would have to approve a future deal as well.)
Jamie McBain has potential written all over him. He was originally benched after training camp, but has stepped in nicely when Faulk was moved down to the AHL. He had a very strong end of year last season, which could be a picture of his future. Would the Canes be willing to let him go, just at the stage of his development which could start paying dividends?
He's in the final year of his entry level deal which has a cap hit of $850,000.
Harrison is probably the most improved Hurricane and just continues to work hard and get better and better. He's even worked his way into the powerplay. It's questionable if he has much value outside of Carolina, but one never knows.
He's in the first year of a two year deal which has a cap hit of $700,000.
So who do you think could be on their way out of town? You have to give up quality to get quality, so a lot depends upon what the Canes want in return.
Could the team be searching for a top level forward to play with Eric Staal? There have been multiple line shuffles this season, and Staal has yet to find a comfort zone. If the Canes want a high level player coming back, one of the high level guys will have to be moved, including a prospect or two.
Later, we'll take a look at who the Canes might be targeting for acquisition.
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Can't vote
because any of the answers make me sick to my stomach.. can’t imagine it.
I really don’t think it will be Kaberle.
Have people already forgotten how long it took Toronto to find a deal they were happy with? I don’t think their is as much interest around the league in Kaberle as the perennial trade rumors surrounding him might indicate.
Can’t see us trading away Gleason, Pitkanen, Kaberle or Allen.
by hockeythoughts on Oct 25, 2011 10:34 AM EDT reply actions
Unfortunately
The most likely candidates to be moved, strictly looking at contracts, would be Allen, Gleason, and Harrison. With Joni and Kaberle in the first years of their deals I don’t see them moving, and I don’t see Allen nor Gleason moving due to how good they’ve been defensively.
Maybe Maurice wants to go with seven defensemen? With as little as he’s using the fourth line (shocker) it might be better to go with seven and then rotate in the other two forwards.
I love how I contradict myself
McBain would probably be the most enticing trade bait, then maybe Harrison? I still think seven defensemen is the best way to go.
A package of McBain + A higher paid forward (Ruutu?) + Picks/prospects for Jason Spezza would be a ridiculous top-6 upgrade for the team. An ideal fit would be someone of his offensive caliber and key FO ability (akin to Brind’Amour).
Skinner – Spezza – Dalpe/Stewart
Jokinen – Staal – Poni
That is a serious top-6.
You may be on to something re: Spezza. Don’t know that you have what we give up right, but Spezza is as likely a prospect as about anyone in the league in my opinion. Depending on the deal (what we give up), this could be a good deal for Canes. Don’t know what Spezza’s contract is.
by FoxtrotSierra on Oct 25, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
He has a $7M cap hit for this year and three more. He’s owed $8M in salary this season and next but only $5M and $4m in the last two years of his deal.
When my opinions and reality don't coincide I re-evaluate my opinions, not reality.
It is interesting that his contract trends down the same way that Staal’s trends up… A good fit salary wise.
I agree Ottawa probably isn’t likely to move him, but they are floundering and in the middle of a significant rebuild. I question the other side, whether Spezza really wants to be on a long-term rebuilding during his prime years.
Ottawa floundering might be a bit of a stretch. If they are floundering, we must be floundering also. Hell, if they win against us tonight, we’ll both have the same amount of points and they would have 1 more win than us.
Maybe we should think about trading Staal and get a bunch of pieces in return?
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
by PackPride17 on Oct 25, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
As much as Staal struggles at times, he is ALWAYS dynamite when it really matter in the Playoffs. Whether he just cares more there or it’s just coincidence, it is invaluable to the team winning another Cup.
I think there is a pretty good consensus that Ottawa is rebuilding heavily. Their defensive talent is very young, They lack true established forward talent and the age of Alfredsson is ending.
The trading Staal comment was sort of a joke.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
by PackPride17 on Oct 25, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Just be careful, Eklund might be lurking.
by Iggy Reilly on Oct 25, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Eklund just reported we traded Staal, Skinner, and Ward for Mike Commodore
Of Maurice, Karmanos said: "I’m happy Paul is back but he’s going to be judged the same way as any other coach. We need to win more consistently."
by Sergeant Stinky on Oct 25, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I know… but I figured id take the opportunity to throw him some love since I am usually dogging him
by JussiJuice on Oct 25, 2011 11:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If only that were a real possibility.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Oct 25, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
If they got Spezza I don’t know that I wouldn’t go with Staal – Spezza – Skinner on the top line and then Poni – Jussi – and gap filler in the second line. You could swap Poni and Skinner for a bit more balance. Doing so would also probably make that open spot in the top 6 easier to slot in a younger player as it would have less responsibility.
When my opinions and reality don't coincide I re-evaluate my opinions, not reality.
Staal – Spezza – Skinner would eclipse the RPG (Ryan-Getzlaf-Perry) as best line in the league. I didn’t even think about going that top-heavy, but that sounds like a guaranteed goal or 2 a game.
Tough call
I feel like Allen and Gleason are the two we could least afford to lose right now in terms of keeping shots off Ward. But they also make the most sense w/ their contract situations.
It would be nice to move Kaberle, but I don’t see it happening. I’d hate to see McBain shipped out but he is the one that I feel we could get value for (plus some prospects) without a huge drop-off when replaced by Faulk.
And that's another Hurricane's goal! WOOOOOOOO!
After thinking about it more...
I don’t see PK/JR spending that much more money and moving McBain+prospects doesn’t clear any room for a Top-6 forward contract. It’s got to be Kaberle, Allen, Gleason, or Pitkanen (or McBain or Harrison plus one of our bigger contract forwards like Ruutu). Of those players, Pitkanen or Allen seem like the most likely options.
Also don’t forget. The Canes have a Pitkanen, Ruutu, and Kaberle bobblehead nights coming up. Does that make them untradeable? ;-)
And that's another Hurricane's goal! WOOOOOOOO!
Quoting myself, but....
To paraphrase Larry Holmes, “….Justin Faulk can’t carry Jamie McBain’s jock strap.”…and I’m thinking actual game play confirms this.
To get a top six forward Pitkanen is the most likely. Trading him would sadden me and my wife. He is an outstanding player, he has been loyal to Carolina, and I think he has great chemistry with Ruutu and Jokinen as well as the rest of the team. If we trade him, the top six forward most likely for us to get is Vinny LaCaveliar (excuse the spelling, the guy from TBay). More likely we give up Brent and one of the other defensemen for the TBay forward.
Just a guess, but TBay needs defense. Only reason this would not be a likely scenario is we are in same division with TBay.
PItkanen is an interesting idea. Kaberle remains as the vet and McBain, Faulk, and Murphy filter in as the young guns. I also think it’s likely that Kaberle is more trabable after this season. I fully anticipate that teams will be able to retain parts of a players salary and cap hit as part of trades in the next CBA.
When my opinions and reality don't coincide I re-evaluate my opinions, not reality.
unfortunately right now Pitkanen is SO valuable, i dont see any other options.
he is a bargain and a top choice D.
could get a lot for him.
i hate to see him go tho
"a bit of love"
There is no way...
….that we trade Pitkanen right after we signed him to a great contract. JR values loyalty among all else and Joni displayed that with his re-signing. If we trade “D” it is one of Gleason, Allen, McBain, or Harrison. Any one of the 1st three gets us value in return, Harrison would be a throw-in for a lesser player. In either case a prospect and/or a pick would be included and we’d get that coveted forward (1st line winger of the borderline type or a 2nd line center) in return with probably a lesser pick. Something around a Gleason/Boychuk/2nd for a somewhat elite player and a 3rd in return….just my two cents….
Who Is Replacing Stewart tonight?
So bringing up Faulk still doesn’t answer this question. Unless they are playing 7 D tonight.
via Twitter
@ice_chip Chip Alexander
Boychuk to be called up
And that's another Hurricane's goal! WOOOOOOOO!
I really do hope Boychuk has an amazing game. Really really really hope.
When my opinions and reality don't coincide I re-evaluate my opinions, not reality.
Me too. Unfortunately, I see 4-5 mins of ice time on the 4th line for him especially if the Canes keep taking penalties the way they have recently. Not sure he will have enough time to do much.
And that's another Hurricane's goal! WOOOOOOOO!
Kaberle and Harrison
For the first time I can remember, the Hurricanes have such depth that all the players have earned the right of sticking with the Hurricanes. In past years, there were always at least two players who really were stretching to play in the NHL. Kaberle has been fine. Harrison is in my view the Hurricanes’ most improved defensemen. The good and bad news is that as the talent pool improves, good players lose their roster spots. I think Kaberle and Harrison are the most expendable in terms of their skill sets.
I doubt the Hurricanes will trade McBain. He has star potential and is playing quite well. Why trade an up and coming player. Any top six forward will not only increase the salary budget but will also be taking a roster spot from players like Dalpe, Rask, Boychuk, and Bowman.
I do think the extra second round draft pick is in play. Kaberle has the most gravitas in terms of being a former NHL All-Star. Pitkanen is a key part of the Hurricanes defense and is starting to play like an elite athlete should play. Gleason and Allen are too essential for their physical play to trade. So I think it is Kaberle who is being shopped unless teams are looking for a cost/performance bonus. Harrison is pure gold for the money he is being paid, but is not the athlete that Faulk and Murphy are. Joslin is still a work in progress, so I don’t see teams lining up to grab him unless they scouted the Hurricanes very, very closely. I am doubtful Joslin is being marketed for a trade.
Got another idea. What about Harrison and prospect forward for Alfredson from Ottawa. He would be a one-year fill-in and we wouldn’t have to give up a top four defenseman. Personally, I would rather keep Harrison and our prospects.
Not Alfie. No way. If the team were looking at him as a third line depth player that could be the final piece in a stanley cup winner, then I’d think about it. As far as a fill in in the top 6, no thanks. I’m sure others will disagree. He’s still a talented player. But it’s not the way I would go.
When my opinions and reality don't coincide I re-evaluate my opinions, not reality.
He is also currently sitting out with a hip injury I think.
No thanks. We don’t need another old breaking down center.
by Iggy Reilly on Oct 25, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Harrison and Joslin
Doubtful we’re trading Kaberle, Allen, Gleason, or Pitkanen.
Definitely not trading McBain.
I’d say both Harrison and Joslin are on the way out.
I’m a big fan of Harrison and hope he’s not traded but there’s a lot of upside with Faulk.
After reading some of these comments I agree mcbain will probably be the more logical defense man traded
Has a high value, brings the most back, and is perhaps the most redundant skill set given what is on the roster now and what is in the pipeline.
When my opinions and reality don't coincide I re-evaluate my opinions, not reality.
Agree
He has market value, and the Canes have his skill set coming up through the system – Faulk, Murphy, Sanguinetti . . .
I completely forgot about Sanguinetti!!
When my opinions and reality don't coincide I re-evaluate my opinions, not reality.
I did as well. Is he finally back healthy? He could always be used to sweeten a deal if he’s been leapfrogged by the others in the system.
"I'm not going to waste my time with Tuukka Rask" - Cam Ward
As much as I’d hate to see him go, his value and “trade-ability” are the highest of anyone not named Tim Gleason (or perhaps Bryan Allen). I think it would be a terrible mistake, but if we got the scorer or 2nd line center back, then we could “suffer” through it. In either case I see multiple players/picks involved (2 players and a pick from the Canes/player and a pick coming back).
Joslin
I don’t see why Joslin is out of the trade picture – he’s still involved in the D-corps congestion. If we’re trying to get an elite forward out of the deal I can see him being an expendable cherry on top for a trade.
With Boyhcuk coming up, this reminds me of Zigomanis’ call-up right before he was traded in the deal for Doug Weight.
What I’d want: Kaberle
What I’d expect: McBain
What I’d be indifferent to: Harrison
What I wouldn’t like: Allen, Gleason, Pitkanen
McBain has the most value and with Murphy coming up and Pitkanen seemingly willing to be a Cane for life at a reasonable price, this seems to make McBain expendable in the long-term. It’s a shame, because I really like his game and think he is a little more stable in his own end than Murphy. Something to remember though is that for a team that is trying to win now, Kaberle might be more enticing. As is the case with all Canes trades, if we are looking at getting an elite player back (i.e. top line winger), salary is going to be in JR’s consciousness. Part of the terms might very well be moving Kaberle, if only to remain within the budget. I could see Kaberle and then a package of Boychuk/Bowman, lower prospect/pick being appealing.
Agree with what most others have said. I would prefer to trade Kaberle but I don’t see any other teams taking him and contract. As much as I like McBain, he’s the logical one considering the depth of puck moving defensemen we have already in the system (Pitkanen, Faulk, Joslin and Murphy).
Allen and Gleason provide the much needed toughness on the blueline and Harrison is a steal considering his contract and how he continues to play. Pitkanen is playing his best hockey in my opinion so I don’t see JR moving him out. Perhaps, McBain and pick could bring us something pretty good back. Maybe even throw in Boychuk and that may fetch us a top 6 winger.
That Kaberle move and his contract are one of the rare times I think JR made a bad move and handcuffed himself. However, I don’t think many in the organization thought Kaberle would be playing as poorly as he has in relation to the contract he got.
"I'm not going to waste my time with Tuukka Rask" - Cam Ward
I’m not gonna fault Rutherford too much on Kaberle. If you recall, we needed to make some type of substantial signing or move in order to get over the floor. Kaberle’s signing was 1.75 a year more than Corvo. Rutherford didn’t want to make that in the form of a forward, as our perceived NHL-ready depth was there (Dalpe, Boychuk, Bowman). He probably didn’t see Murphy and Faulk being NHL-ready at start of camp. He had a financial obligation he had to make, so he made it where he thought it would be most suited. Just didn’t turn out that way.
If a defenseman is traded my guess would be Allen. ( not my wish) He is in the last year of his contract, and is playing well right now so his value is higher.
With so many young defensemen in the pipeline,
Mc Bain seems the likely choice
I AGREE
Murphy is Jamie McBain’s replacement next year. I adore McBain, but Rangers need a D-man, Montreal needs D-men. Not sure if they’d take a young player.
JR has to be kicking himself for signing Kabs at this point. GM fail.
Harrumph
where is the benefit to us...
I have more questions than answers, but I must ask " where is the benefit to us by trading a top six defensemen"? Everyone of our top six are playing well and are a great benefit to the team… except one – Kaberle! You can not buy dedication or chemistry … Gleason, Allen, Pitkanen, and Harrison have these elements. If Rutherford trades any of these gentlemen … then I believe he has taken up smoke’n illegal substances (IMO).
As some of the most recent posts suggest… McBain is the odd man out.
The benefit is the acquisition of a true top 6 player to fill out our top two lines and address the lack of depth at RW or Center depending on how you slot Ruutu and Jussi. The hope is that between Faulk and Joslin you can cover for McBain being moved and in return you get a player that can not only fill up the top 6 but also get Staal going.
Think about it, the Canes are at .500 and Staal has 0 even strength goals and is -10. If I were asked to guess the record of the Canes after 8 games given Staal had 0 es goals and was -10 I certainly wouldn’t guess they would be .500. There is some potential in this team. The D is more solid than I thought it would be and Cam is playing well. There’s some secondary scoring. If Staal gets going this team could be legitimately dangerous. Maybe not Washington good, but second round in the playoffs good.
When my opinions and reality don't coincide I re-evaluate my opinions, not reality.
Maybe its time
that we find a Staal to play with our wingers.
which wingers would you be referring to. The career 2nd liners (Jussi & Ruutu), the experiment (Poni), or the 4th liner (LaRose).
Sorry, that was rude of me.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Your point is well taken, but at some point you have to expect your captain to put on his big boy pants and play, and make the others around him better. You would expect this of a leader in any type of organization.
I’m not suggesting that he has had top level talent to play with, but year after year, this team and its fan base say we have to try to find someone to get Staal going. At some point you have to wonder weather the problem isn’t just the opposite.
I don’t have the answer – I’m just thowing it out there.
Like I have said in other threads, he is not performing well. I just don’t know if you can get rid of him because it would put that much more pressure on other players. Can Skinner take being the primary focus of opposing teams, maybe; but that will be something we’ll eventually learn.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
i too voted
but felt dirty afterwards….:-\
9/11/01 - Never Forget !!
Long Live #63 The Condor
Go Canes & Checkers !!!
Clearing a roster spot or trading value for value?
Did JR say anything yesterday about trading a top 6 Dman for a forward? I wasn’t there but what I’ve seen doesn’t suggest that to me. It sounds more like clearing a roster spot. If that’s the goal, I doubt McBain is involved.
If the Canes are trying to land a big fish at forward, assuming there is one available, they’ll also have to include somebody who makes more money than McBain unless they’re willing to increase the salary budget substantially. That could be Ruutu, but there aren’t that many forwards who would make a bigger net contribution to the Canes than Ruutu + McBain. I don’t know of anybody like that who might be on the trading block.
by curiouscanesfan on Oct 25, 2011 1:01 PM EDT reply actions
ales hemsky?
wonder what the cost may be, guarantee it won’t be pitkanen lol
I’ve been vexing over the whole “mess” on the blue line this season. There’s been a total log jam back there and wish there were some kind of “easy button” we could push to get it all perfect. I’ve been really unhappy with Kaberle thus far – I don’t see him bringing anything to the table that someone else who’s both younger and more affordable can provide on defense.
I’d really hate it if we lost McBain.
Megaweapon… Megaweapon… Megaweapon…
The question I have is who would be the trade partner and who on those teams would be available to improve our Canes?
Teams that may be looking for a defenseman:
Edmonton – would probably love a player like McBain. A young, puck-moving defenseman that should be coming into his own with the rest of their young players. But who would they trade for him; an injured Hemsky or a tweener Omark?
Rangers – they are looking for a defenseman, but maybe want a veteran with all of their young guys on the backend. I would hope Kaberle might interest them, but no one wants that contract. We would have to take some salary back in any deal; maybe Wolski? He has potential, but you never know what you are going to get.
Vancouver – I heard they still want a puck-moving blueliner. They probably don’t want a big salary, so a McBain or even a Joslin might due. But what could you really expect in return? Hodgson has potential, but I’m not sure they would be willing to give him up.
Calgary – they would probably want someone somewhat young and probably anybody. Bourque is about the only one who interest me there that they might be willing to part with.
Columbus – they need additional help all around, but particularly on the backend. I’m not sure who on their team that would help us out. They have a few good players, but they need to keep them. So maybe a 1st or 2nd round draft pick?
I’m sure there are others out there, but these are just a few a thought of.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Wolski has head-cased
his way out of two organizations already, and Carolina is not known for its tolerance of difficult guys.
That Hokie freshman in the Greensboro Coliseum rafters didn't see any of this coming.
Those are some interesting options.
Particularly the Rangers, who I suspect are getting very tired of waiting for Del Zotto to step up on their power play and need scoring help. Vancouver is another good one, Salo is so fragile and maybe Hodgson is available after the Booth trade. He hasn’t seemed to live up to expectations there, a change could be in order.
You’d have to consider Tampa (despite being in same division) and Montreal as well. Both are in desperate need on D, especially Tampa. Not sure what forwards they could offer though, neither team has much depth. I wonder about New Jersey too, Larsson hasn’t had a good start on their power play and no one else stepped up last year.
The off the radar team is Detroit. They need to start preparing for Lidstrom’s retirement, and if he gets injured before then they are in trouble. Ian White is not the answer and they don’t have another ready prospect.
by transmogrifier on Oct 25, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I was considering posting McBain for Magnus Pajaarvi-Svensson instead of the Spezza idea. As it stands now, McBain probably has more value and MPS is struggling in Edmonton currently, but the kid oozes offensive potential.
My dream trade from Edmonton would be a monster deal to bring Jordan Eberle here, but that would never happen. That kid is dynamite.
EDM won’t be giving up on Pajaarvi so soon, and definitely not for McBain.
by Cory Lavalette on Oct 25, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
If I was a team looking to vastly improve my defense, and I had a scoring winger to trade, looking at the ’Canes roster I would try to pry Gleason away first, then Pitkanen.
Of Maurice, Karmanos said: "I’m happy Paul is back but he’s going to be judged the same way as any other coach. We need to win more consistently."
by Sergeant Stinky on Oct 25, 2011 1:21 PM EDT reply actions
1. I doubt that the move will amount to salary dump, we are close to the cap floor and dumping salary now would prevent us from doing that at the trade deadline when the return would be the highest. I doubt that JR would go this way.
2. Form our perspective, McBain is probably most likely to be traded. He is expandable due to Falk and Murphy. It sucks to trade him, but this would in fact be the best option, since I expect JR to insist on a fair value back, an up and coming forward with upside. Teams are willing to pay premium for puck-moving defensemen (think Goligolski for Neal/Niskanen), so I expect good return from this trade
3. What actually happens depends what the demand is out there. Several teams want a defenseman, but can they offer a fair value back? Somebody may, for example, want a cheap guy like Harrison, so that they can have flexibility for doing trades in the future.
Trading Young Talent Never Works Well
I am surprised that so many comments have McBain being traded. Why would the Canes trade McBain and keep Harrison. Harrison has improved tremendously, but his upper limit is nowhere near McBain’s. Trading young talent doesn’t work unless one gets back equal or better talent that is a better team fit. For example, the Ladd for Ruutu trade worked well for Ruutu and Ladd.
The idea is to look to see which player has the most talent and then one tries to avoid trading him. One also considers the players’ salary as contrasted with his productivity. Kaberle is overpaid for what he now can accomplish at this stage in his career. Harrison is underpaid, but he has limited upper end. He is quite good, but is not a likely candidate for the NHL All-Star game, for example.
Trading Harrison doesn’t bring in anything that fixes the top 6. Same for Kaberle. This isn’t about dumping salary, it’s about getting better. Moving Harrison and Kaberle aren’t going to bring something back that improves the offense.
When my opinions and reality don't coincide I re-evaluate my opinions, not reality.
Be honest CL, you know whatever trade happens; JR will find some bottom of the heap forward that he believes he can turn into a top 6 player. So Harrison might actually fetch this healthy scratch?
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Young talent for young talent?
This is crazy speculation, but what if the Canes put together a blockbuster that brought back a young offensive talent with good size who is ready to play at a high level in the NHL now? For example:
McBain + Ruutu + Boychuk for Magnus Pajaarvi and one of Edmonton’s D prospects [Musil, Teubert maybe].
The Oilers have a wealth of young forward talent and have to be thinking they’re within one move of contending. They’ve gotten no scoring from Paajarvi this year and he’s in the shadow of Hall, Nugent-Hopkins and Eberle. But in his draft year, Paajarvi was considered a top line scoring wing. He scored 15 goals and 34 points at age 19. Yet he’s not going to beat out Hall.
The Canes would be giving up a lot, but Faulk and Murphy are going to eclipse McBain, and with Pitkanen and Kaberle under long-term contracts, there’s just no room. The Canes have to worry about losing Ruutu for nothing at year end. Ruutu and McBain would make the Oilers more competitive right away and Boychuk would give them a 3rd line leftwing who isn’t as bright a prospect as Paajarvi but in their wide-open style has a chance to be a productive NHL player.
The Canes are not going to get a veteran in trade to solve their problem on the 1st line. They don’t have a forward prospect who is panning out at that level either. Maybe it’s a viable strategy to gamble some current assets on a more advanced forward prospect than their own.
by curiouscanesfan on Oct 25, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t we just buyout Tomas like we did his brother.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
I just posted above, but MPS for McBain straight up would probably be even… No need to give up Ruutu and Boychuk.
McBain + Ruutu + Boychuk
for
Jordan Eberle
That is a deal I’d make this instant
thats a lot for Eberle (2 1st round picks & an All-Star) and I still don’t think Edmonton would do it.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
McBain is good with a lot of potential, but I hear him referred to as an All-Star over and over again here. He a last-minute, hometown replacement in the rookie group to compete in the skills competition for All-Star weekend. I’m not sure that qualifies someone as an All-Star.
And that's another Hurricane's goal! WOOOOOOOO!
Here's one for you!
Kaberle + Joslin + Nash + LaRose + seven of Maurice’s ties
for
Parise + an autographed jersey of Brodeur
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
I’m thinking Ruutu is a rental player, Boychuk’s value is in doubt, and McBain is a high 2nd rounder who has worked out well. But if the Canes could get MP for McBain straight up, they should do it in a heartbeat. I just don’t think the Oilers would do it. They’re looking at a forward who played pretty well in the NHL at age 19, who has size, speed and skill, vs a defenseman who skates pretty well, passes well, has a good shot, but is not great in his own end and still gets overpowered. I think MP is more at the Murphy talent level where there may be issues but the talent is so great that stardom is a real possibility. I don’t see that with McBain. I think he’s going to be a good NHL defenseman who’s excellent on the power play but not as a defenseman in his own end—there, he’ll just be good, with clear limitations against certain types of players.
by curiouscanesfan on Oct 25, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Edmonton has no expectations of winning this year either.
So they will not be giving up a young talent like Pajaarvi or Omark this season.
by transmogrifier on Oct 25, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Again … no way Paajarvi for McBain is “even.” Paarjavi is a big-time prospect.
by Cory Lavalette on Oct 25, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
McBain was a young-gun All-Star… You don’t get much bigger than that, by definition.
I think you are undervaluing the worth of a solid young puck-moving D and buying into to much of the “MPS is a future superstar” hype that the Edmonton media creates.
Have you seen any Oilers games this year? They are now calling for him to be sent down to the AHL or be healthy scratched because he can’t get it going. The media tends to oversensationalize things.
It does not ever work well to trade away young talent because young talent is the foundation for non-salary cap teams. When has it ever worked unless equal or better young talent comes back. The Ladd for Ruutu trade is the prime example of trading talent for talent. I am not suggesting McBain could never be traded. What I do suggest strongly is that the player the Hurricanes need in return is not easy to find these days. I would disagree with anybody who said Kaberle is a better hockey player with more upper end potential than McBain. I would have the same disagreement with anybody who said Harrison has more upper end potential than McBain. Trading McBain only makes sense for a very significant return. McBain for Turris would be an exchange of high end young talent for high end young talent.
I really can’t understand the Turris thing here. Yes, the kid was a high draft pick and has some potential; but he really hasn’t done much of anything in the NHL. Staal & Skinner have had “better” months than this kid has had seasons. (I’m exaggerating a little there, but not by much).
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Turris
There is no perfect solution. Turris is largely unproven; but I suggest he has game changer abilities. The list of potential trade partners who would give up a young forward capable of playing with Staal is a short, short list. As the Neal trade demonstrated, the window of opportunity for obtaining that kind of talent opens and closes very quickly. Many people, including myself, have begged for a top six wing; but in reality who is available who meets all the criteria? Not many at all. For example, even though it might be impossible to obtain, Ryan Johansen is the real deal.
The list of potential trade partners who would give up a young forward capable of playing with Staal is a short, short list.
I would tend to think we could already have that in Dalpe when he gets back healthy. Either this year or next. But that’s if he gets a chance to play and a whole other conversation completely.
"I'm not going to waste my time with Tuukka Rask" - Cam Ward
Dalpe
I have been a strong advocate for having Dalpe on Staal’s line. For some reason, whether it was a nagging injury, coaches’ reluctance, or some other reason, Dalpe saw some time in the pre-season with Staal, but then was sent to the fourth line. I also agree with your point about the fact it might take a year or so for Dalpe or Rask or Boychuk or Bowman to be ready to play on Staal’s line. I think unless there is a player available whose talent level is so high that it is a no-brainer decision the Hurricanes ought to stick it out with the young prospects rather than give up talent on the hope of a great return.
Your faith in our prospects is too enthusiastic. Dalpe is good, but will never be all-star quality. Boychuk is almost certainly a bust. Bowman will make a fine third-liner. Rask is… who knows?
Dalpe is most likely a 2nd line player, capable of scoring around 50 points, but he is not a likely All-Star. Boychuk is probably a 40 point player sometime in his NHL career. Bowman is probably a solid 3rd liner. Rask has potential, he might be a 1st or 2nd line player, but still probably not an All-Star calibar player.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Of course, which is why I’m not clamoring to trade away McBain. To be honest, I wouldn’t mind just having Faulk play the year out in Charlotte and gain some more experience playing professional hockey before being thrown to the wolves in the NHL. I’m not sure I get the rush to have Faulk play so quickly.
"I'm not going to waste my time with Tuukka Rask" - Cam Ward
How has Turris all of sudden become a 1st liner? 12 goals last season, 3 points in a playoff series against Detroit, and now he’s a 1st liner? Are you this kids agent? That might be why is is wanting so much money for not really doing that much.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Just to prove I’m wasn’t exaggerating too much.
Skinner (Jan 2011, his best month) – 9 goals, 5 assists, 14 points
Turris (his 1st NHL season) – 8 goals, 12 assists, 20 points
Staal (Mar 2008, not even his best month) – 6 goals, 15 assists, 21 points
Turris (his 2nd NHL season) – 11 goals, 14 assists, 25 points
It’s tough for me to say Turris is a likely top line player and I think McBain has more value than he does currently.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
What are we going to do when our D has so many puck movers in Pitkanen, McBain, Faulk, Joslin, Kaberle and Murphy waiting in the wings? We can only have so many of them and we’re going to have to move some people out – especially if people are wanting Murphy to play in a year or two.
The reason I see trading McBain is that he is replaceable. I think he’s good but it isn’t like he possesses a skill that we are lacking – but he could be used in a trade to bring in something we are lacking. If we’re shipping a Dman out, it should be an offensive Dman since we have so many. McBain seems the most logical as JR isn’t going to ship Pitkanen with his skill and his good price. McBain would help bring the most back.
"I'm not going to waste my time with Tuukka Rask" - Cam Ward
To say it never works is just untrue. It does work. Do you want to mortgage your entire future for older players? Of course not. But there are circumstances where taking on an older player can work out just fine. I’d say it worked out for the Kings when they got Gretzky, wouldn’t you?
by Cory Lavalette on Oct 25, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Gretzky
You think the Gretzky trade was for hockey reasons and not the sheer publicity of having perhaps the greatest player ever to play the game in Los Angeles?
The only thing left to say is that Tomas Kaberle would look real good in a Habs jersey! :)
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
I’d be willing to guess (mostly due to the readiness of Faulk and Murphy this year) that if JR could trade Kaberle for a bag of pucks right now that he would do it.
Not a slight to Kaberle or insinuating that he doesn’t have a lot of value, but the cost-conscious Canes need better results for $4 million a year.
Are they new pucks or old pucks? Hell, it doesn’t matter; trade accepted!
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
I hope more than anyone that Kaberle turns in around and becomes an offensive force… He was traded for the equivalent of two 1st Round Picks last March. He was Top-5 in the whole NHL for assists among D-men last year.
Maybe he needs more time to mesh into the team, maybe he just doesn’t mesh with Mo/Lewis’s system, or maybe Mo/Lewis need to learn how to incorporate him better.
As much as I hate this situation, the only one that I can justify in my mind is Kaberle. Salary wise, he fits the bill as far as a “give and get in return” situation goes. Maybe have to throw in a prospect & a pick, but considering the way the Canes like to budget, I can’t see any of the other top 4 we have fitting the bill, so to speak. Plus, I just don’t think they’d want to mess with what’s working at this point. But heck, who knows.
Hey I think you are all missing the obvious.......
We trade Kaberle to the Habs for Erik Cole part 3! I keeeeed I keeed!
But let’s face it, if it happened, would any of us be all that surprised?
Home developed
We have so few play-every-day players at NHL level that we developed, I’d hate to see one (McBain) traded. (Who do we have: LaRose, McBain, kind Dwyer.)
We’ll trade someone, then have lots of d-man injuries and end up short… The only reason I can see to trade is to get some top 6 forward, and I don’t think McBain with minor leaguers is enough for that. So Kabs.
I’m for getting Cole back… never happen.
Faulk in an option... but highly doubtful
Funny that nobody mentioned it but there very well could be a trade involving Faulk. I honestly would be shocked but its worth mentioning. We are really deep with Murphy and Dumoulin a year away. Combine that with Faulk and that’s half of our top 6 D-men then add Joni and Kaberle under contracts… DJ in the mix and Bobby looking strong in Charlotte is there room…no, there isnt for sure!
Think about it…Jimmy has been pumping this kid up…stating he is a top 4 at age 19…that’s sure driving the value up a bit. They started him out this year and maybe were hoping to showcase him. Again I doubt it but figured I would get you guys thinking.
Kaberle isnt going anywhere for sure. To much money and JR didnt sign him to trade him 8 games in. If he was looking at using him for some pics at the deadline the deal would have been very short.
You have to seriously consider Gleason and Allen because of the contracts that will be looming in the off-season. I doubt that either will be shipped this early though as they are a key part of our team and key type of players we need. I think that JR can look to DJ to fill Gleason’s role if this is the case.
McBain is the clear cut guy I see being shipped as part of a package. I wont be happy with this but we need a Top 6 winger. We have been a top 6 guy short for a few years. McBain will be due a large raise at the end of the year since he is still on his ELC. I think JR has the ability to increase our budget a touch as we are a little lower than the original estimation.
I think Faulk has top 4 (maybe top 2) all-around potential and that is something not normally found in the Canes system. I think he will be a better NHL defenseman than Murphy (mainly due to size, but still better). If JR trades Faulk, I would be shocked and a little turned off how this organization is working.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Like I said…I would be shocked as well!
Just wanted it out there.
Its Gleason or McBain IMHO
by RobbinDollar on Oct 25, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading Gleason would be a poor decision than signing Kaberle.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Im not saying this is what I want to happen just stating what I think is the most logical.
Who has more value McBain or Gleason?
I imaging its McBain b/c he is still in his ELC he is young and a nice 2-way D-man
…but still cant rule out Gleason because he is in the last year of his deal and because DJ is a similar player.
Jimmy has some options is all Im saying…The cupbord is stacked with D-men….
just if we have to loose one of my favorite players then I hope we get a stud not a project.
by RobbinDollar on Oct 25, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The cupboard is stocked with “OFFENSIVE” D-Men, not shutdown guys. Gleason is valuable, but he is more valuable to this team than what any other team would offer for him.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
I think DJ can play the same role as Gleason… Brian Dumoulin will play a similar game as well. I agree with you on all your points. Just making an observation.
But you last statement kinda proves why Faulk “could” be moved.
by RobbinDollar on Oct 25, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Joslin and think a Gleason/Joslin pairing would be interesting to watch, but Joslin cannot yet play the same role as Gleason. Gleason is much more responsible. Dumoulin is an interesting thought, but that kid hasn’t even suited up for a pro, let alone a NHL game yet. He’s probably still a year & a half away from making the Canes.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Hmm…Maybe.
They wanted him to come out after his Sophomore Year if I remember correct. So I think they are really thinking he can step in and be top 6 next year. I don’t know if that’s the case or not just reading between the lines. They were very disappointed that he didn’t come out this year when he elected to play his senior year at BC. Both Him and Murphy will see time up next year. that leaves me wondering long term….
Gotta trade guys that have value at the peak of their value. That means Tim is near his peak. I would hate a deal where he is moved and I think they look at him as a long term member of the team. Just what will he cost us to sign him? Im sure JR knows the estimated new salerie he expects to pay and if its not what Gleason will accept then he needs to move him.
I dont think its Timmy but he is more likly than most of the others…except Jamie
by RobbinDollar on Oct 25, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m pretty sure Dumoulin is a junior this season, so he could return to BC next year if a degree is that important to him. And it could be argued that NCAA doesn’t prepare players well for the NHL. I think most college kids need time in the AHL to make the adjustment of playing so many games.
Disagree with you on Timmy. I think he will still have value for a few more years. The dude is like 28 years old, I think he reaching his peak, not going to start declining.
I can’t speak for Timmy, but I don’t think he will be hunting for a huge payday. I think he will sign a reasonable deal in the neighborhood of $3.5 to $4 million.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Yeah you might be right on Brian…
I hope Tim signs a long term deal for 3.5!
On his value…it is at its peak.people like to get the guy at 28 not 30.
by RobbinDollar on Oct 25, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Kaberle was traded to Boston for a former 1st round pick, a 2011 1st round pick, and a 2012 2nd round pick and he was 32 at the time.
Some managers manage using the carrot, Mo manages by using "The Stick."
Yeah perennial All-Star and at the top of the short list for PP Quarterbacks at the time….
Also it was shortly before the deadline…I think Boston overpaid but they got over paid in the Kessel deal so it kinda evened out…Oh and Boston won the cup.
So I understand your point. But different players… and different skill sets.
by RobbinDollar on Oct 25, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought of Faulk as well
It just crossed my mind that it could happen. Wouldn’t be happy about it.
Regardless of who we trade, we only need to do it if we get a 1st or 2nd line forward. To me this means LaCavalier, Spezza, Heatly, etc. type players. The best defense is a good offense (remember 2006) + adequate defensemen. If we gave up a top defenseman, we still would have enough depth to be good defensively. So to me the only thing important is do we get a real top notch scorer and if so, then I’ll live with who we give up.
My problem comes if we give up one of our best defenseman and get a project forward back (Wolski, Hemsky, etc.). Forget Cole. He’s got a no-trade clause and we already have lost with him. He is not the answer. He may be Staal’s buddy, but that’s not enough to bring him back for any of our defensemen.
Barring an ownership changes, the Canes are not getting any of the Lecavalier-Spezza-Heatley level forwards and couldn’t keep them if they did. The best to be hoped for in a veteran forward is Erik Cole or Ales Hemsky or Ray Whitney, or maybe bringing Cory Stillman out of retirement. That may be where we’re headed. A trade is not bringing back a sure-thing first-line scoring forward unless it’s a veteran that somebody else wants to dump and that PM has coached before.
Unlikely as it is, the best hope of a lasting solution may be giving up a boatload of assets for a forward prospect who fits current needs better than anybody the Canes have. I’m not sure if that’s possible either, but I wonder about Paajarvi in Edmonton and Eric Tangradi in Pittsburgh. With PM as coach in perpetuity, I would be concerned about their arriving in Carolina and getting 6 minutes a night on the 4th line for the first three years. So we’re back to the Cory Stillman option.
Another alternative would be to change head coaches and see if someone other than PM can get more out of the Canes’ current forward prospects. That doesn’t seem likely to happen. Even if it did, the luster is off the Canes’ forward prospects because they haven’t shown much in the NHL. You can argue about whether they’ve had a real shot, but the fact remains they are 3 and 4 years past the draft and have accomplished zilch in the NHL. You have to wonder if they’ll ever be more than fringe players. Either they aren’t very good or the way the Canes have chosen to handle them has made them look that way. We’ll have a better idea three years from now when most of them are playing for other teams or out of hockey.
by curiouscanesfan on Oct 25, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
well pronger is hurt in philly, you think lavi is coveting gleason or mcbain?
Of Maurice, Karmanos said: "I’m happy Paul is back but he’s going to be judged the same way as any other coach. We need to win more consistently."
by Sergeant Stinky on Oct 25, 2011 3:06 PM EDT reply actions
Just a quick look at potential Trading partners
I took a few mins to look at who could be available. Please add to it or remove any…Im not offended… was just having fun :)
Philly
Voracek, Jakub 2.25 2012 RFA
Doubt that they would but they need some cap space and is Matt Walker and Lilja the answer? Philly could make a move and they are deep at forward. I doubt they would move a guy they just got but maybe keeping Couturier up they have a bit of extra. You know Lavi loves Puck moving D-men.
Columbus
Huselius 4.75 2012 UFA - Would doubt it as JR doesnt like getting pending UFA this early in the year.
Brassard 3.2 2014 UFA —-Makes sense to me. they need D Help and cap room and he hasn’t produced like he was predicted maybe a change of scenery in his future.
Giroux would doubt it but maybe Columbus is tired of the potential and not producing.
Columbus needs help on the back end and they desperately need cap space. I would guess Brassard or Huselius.
L.A.
Penner 4.25 2012 UFA
Stoll 3.6 2012 UFA
Clifford .875 2013 RFA
Fraser .825 2012 UFA
Penner seems like he is the one LA would be shopping. Stoll is a key Faceoff guy and there 3rd line center and PK guy, I could see him helping our team.Would be nice to get one of the young guys out of LA Clifford or Fraser. Watch as Penner may be on his way east….
Montreal
Kostitsyn 3.25 2012 UFA
They need D bad! Nothing of real interest in Montreal…and no Cole isn’t coming back not at that price and not right after we let him go.
Kostitsyn is not a guy I would want but he has potential to light it up. I think he fell out of favor there as well.
Rangers
Wolski 3.8 2012 RFA
They need help on D! Look out as we will get Wolski back in a deal with NY and he can look amazing and then not show up for a few weeks.
Calgary
Wow were to start!?
Bourque 3.333 2016 UFA Nice long deal at an affordable rate…Makes sense that this is the one we get
Hagman3.0 2012 UFA
Jokinen 3.0 2012 UFA Hope not…maybe JR remembers all the times he has killed us
Stempniak 1.9 2012 UFA Possible
Moss 1.3 2012 UFA
Look at Calgary as a potential suitor
We have worked deals with them before and they need D bad!
Chicago
Frolik 2.3 2014 UFA
Doubt they have much we would be interested in…but they could use some D for sure.
Edmonton
Hemsky 4.1 2012 UFA
Look for Hemsky to be moved this year as they might want a younger D to grow with these young forwards.
Minnasota
Latendresse 2.25 2012 RFA
Doubtful
Florida
I know Florida is in the division but Tallon and JR are best friends and have moved equal parts before i.e. talent for talent. The panthers could use a young D man on their team and McBain might be the guy they covet.
Tough to guess who Florida could part with or who we would have interest in. Basically any of their top 6 could be a Cane in a few weeks.
St. Louis
Oshie 2.35 2012 RFA
Could be some potential here. Oshie is in the dog house and is rumored to being shopped…. funny that he has the same off season ethic that McBain is rumored to have..
Ottawa
Spezza 7.0 2015 UFA Keep dreaming! Never going to happen.
Phoenix
Whitney 3.0 2012 UFA
Turris
Haha you know you want Ray back and thats what JR Does. I dont see it happening this time.The favorite in the Rumor mill is Kyle….Lets see if its all smoke…Is he going to step in and play with Staal? I dont think he is worth the gamble as he hasn’t convinced Phoenix to keep him in the NHL so why would he convince us to put him on the top line.
Sorry Bob!
I couldn’t wait :)
I hope you can point out some I forgot.
by RobbinDollar on Oct 25, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I was going to say, you’re stealing my thunder! Great job though!
Editing Manager of Canes Country.com
Im sure you will provide a much more fluid write up and I will be sitting here in blue until then!
Blue = Holding my breath in anticipation :)
by RobbinDollar on Oct 25, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
The Reality of Whose is Available
Very few teams are not looking for a top six forward. The Hurricanes are limited further by their quite low salary budget. As one goes through the trades that are even potentially feasible, the list is quite short. It makes little to no sense to bring back Whitney for example or to bring Stillman out of retirement. The Hurricanes, I think, made a mistake not using last season to find out whether Dalpe, Boychuk, or Bowman could play on Staal’s wing. Staal is entering the prime of his career. The Hurricanes best chance at a Stanley Cup exists in putting a few final pieces together while Ward, Staal, Ruutu, Pitkanen, Gleason, and Jokinen are entering the prime of their careers. The young players like Skinner, Sutter, Dalpe, McBain, and Faulk are still several years away from their prime.
The problem isn’t in identifying the problem. The issue is in finding a workable deal. Even if the deal is workable there is no guarantee the newly obtained top six forward will work on Staal’s line. Wolski, Penner, Turris, Oshie, Kostitsyn, and Rene Bourque are on my list of potential players; but none are ripping up the NHL at the moment. Then the question is what would it cost and is the cost worth trading a player like McBain rather than working hard to get Dalpe, Rask, Boychuk, or Bowman ready for the task?
I’ll probably get hammered for saying this but I wouldn’t mind picking up Brassard out of Columbus. He could perhaps be a good 2nd line center. He’s young and has got a lot of potential. However, had no idea he had a 3.2M cap hit. That’s a little steep considering what he’s produced thus far but if he can reach his potential and stay healthy then it could be a good deal.
Of course, I don’t think we’re out looking for a center but I would like to grab him up if the opportunity came around.
"I'm not going to waste my time with Tuukka Rask" - Cam Ward
JUST A THOUGHT
how about Zach or Zac Parise . Not sure if the Devils will spend the money next season to keep him.
by skinnerthewinner on Oct 25, 2011 5:57 PM EDT reply actions
Official! Turris asks for Trade
Funny that Phoenix has said all along that they were not interested in a trade!
Now The Turris Camp has requested a Trade!
“We’ve respectfully requested that the player had the opportunity to move forward in his career by having a fresh start.”
He could get along nicely with Staal and he is only 22!
Could fit nicely here.
Keep in mind he asked to be traded and that means his value is much lower than when the yotes said they were not trading him….ala the Corvo trade!
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