Commentary: Canes' youth not being served
by Brian LeBlanc on Nov 15, 2011 1:30 PM EST
in Carolina Hurricanes Analysis
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It's been a long time since the Hurricanes have had the organizational depth that they currently possess. The Charlotte Checkers currently lead the AHL's Midwest Division at 9-6-1 despite playing 11 of their 16 games on the road thus far. Justin Faulk, who was described by Canes GM Jim Rutherford in the preseason as an NHL-ready player, leads all Checkers defensemen with six points. Jon Matsumoto and Jerome Samson, both of whom have seen time with the Canes, are atop the scoring chart for Charlotte at nearly a point-per-game thus far.
Clearly, the Hurricanes organization has some skill in its pipeline.
Which brings us to the plights of Zach Boychuk and Zac Dalpe.
Last night, the final question of Paul Maurice's press conference, which you can listen to here, came from Michael Smith of CarolinaHurricanes.com.
Smith: "What kept those bottom guys off the ice in the third period? Dalpe and Boychuk, specifically?"
(long pause)
Maurice: "What kept them off the ice?"
Smith: "Yeah, the guys..."
Maurice: (talking over Smith) "The guys who were on the ice."
The press conference then ended, with Maurice shoving the door open from the press room and bouncing it off the wall, causing a loud clang.
The numbers bear out Smith's question and raise a very obvious point: what in the world had Dalpe and Boychuk (and, for that matter, Jiri Tlusty) done to earn a total of ten minutes of ice time among the three of them?
With the exception of two Tlusty shorthanded shifts in the third period, neither he nor Boychuk saw the ice in the final 23 minutes of the game. Dalpe, meanwhile, had a worse fate befall him; his final shift came with nine minutes remaining in the second period, meaning he did not see the ice for the final twenty-nine minutes of the game.
Meanwhile, Eric Staal played over 25 minutes, three players (Staal, Sutter and Skinner) played over 20 minutes apiece, with Jussi Jokinen and Chad LaRose both playing 19+ minutes apiece.
Put another way: the Hurricanes took a total of 390 man-shifts last night. Eighteen of those shifts were taken by the fourth line.
There's been a discussion about the chicken-or-egg paradox seemingly apparent in the ice time of the Canes' fourth line. The answer seems obvious: for whatever reason, Dalpe and Boychuk are being severely underutilized. In his 22-game NHL career, Dalpe has played over 10 minutes just four times. Boychuk has been a little more frequently used, but the 3:54 he saw on Monday night was his career low, surpassing the previous low set...uh, two nights before, when he played 3:59 in the Canes' win over the Penguins.
Compare those numbers to those of Jeff Skinner, who played his 100th career game Monday night. Of those 100 games, Skinner has received under ten minutes of ice time precisely once, a February 2011 game against Boston in which he missed the mark by less than ten seconds.
Now, Dalpe and Boychuk are not Jeff Skinner. There can be no doubt of that. But they certainly aren't fourth-line grinders either. By marginalizing their ice time to this extent, the organization is doing them a severe disservice.
It's quickly approaching time for the team to fish or cut bait on the two Zac/hs. Either they're not ready for the NHL and need 15-20 minutes regularly in Charlotte, or they're ready for the NHL and need more than five minutes per night to prove it.
One thing's for sure: their current plight isn't doing them any favors. It's up to the coaching staff to figure out how to give Boychuk and Dalpe the best possible chance to succeed. That organizational depth is only as good as it's utilized, and the sooner the Canes realize that fact, the better.
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I’m not a big mo must go guy either but if we’re going to be mediocre let’s at least be mediocre and foster growth internally since we won’t ever be big spenders in free agency.
by jfhammon on Nov 15, 2011 1:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you!!!!
That’s what is driving me crazy. If it’s obvious we don’t have the talent this year to really compete and make a run in the playoffs – we should be giving our prospects some ice time to learn the NHL game and get some experience. Both Boychuk and Bowman’s ELC are up after this year and I would think JR would like to know what he has before he releases or resigns them.
"I'm not going to waste my time with Tuukka Rask" - Cam Ward
Glad you said it...
since it is painfully obvious that this is not a playoff bound team, what’s the harm in playing them? How effective do you think Staal can be playing 25 minutes?Is it enough for Maurice simply to compete? The team as it is simply isn’t that good, since spending money isn’t an option then these 1st round picks need to be given the chance to contribute. I’m not big on Boychuk but Dalpe has lots of potential, he needs to play.
yeah, I used to play
+1
I have been very much in favor of Boychuk getting a good look in a role he was drafted to fill. I too am on the fence about Boychuk, but he needs to get a good long look to truly know. The pressure on these kids to instantly produce or be banished to the 4th line doesn’t make for an ideal situation for them to play relaxed hockey, which is when their true potential will show. Mo is really selling the future short and his reward is a sub .500 team.
The sad thing is Boychuk did produce when given time on the 1st line. He had 2 assist in 2 games. He directly contributed in 2 of the 3 goals the Canes scored in those 2 games. Yet, he was still banished to the 4th line. It seems obvious that production doesn’t matter to Mo, you have to be a veteran.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
not trying to argue or belittle his contributions but I don’t show Boychuk having any points this season. I just think he’s too small and not strong enough on his skates, I don’t think he has an NHL caliber shot and his foot speed isn’t enough to assure his success at this level. Granted he hasn’t really been given much of an opportunity to develop chemistry with any particular line but putting him on the bench isn’t an answer. I honestly didn’t even realize that Tlusty and Dalpe even played last night. Reluctant to get on Mo but I disagree with a fair amount of his decisions. If Boychuk or Dalpe don’t develop it falls directly on his watch.
yeah, I used to play
Why not save money and not have a fourth line?Maybe someone should ask Maurice that and see what smart ass answer he comes up with.
Since our defense sucks so bad, why not replace the 4th line forwards with 3 more defenseman. I’m sure there are some over-the-hill defensemen that other teams would love to get rid of their cap hit and Mo would love to have.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
Wait
I think you’re on to something!! Three offensive lines!!!
Four Defensive Pairings!!!!! Plus we carry one extra forward for size, or replacement purposes!!!!
Brilliant!!!! We can bring up Joslin full time, and bring up Faulk as well.
We play the defense like this: Shutdown Pairing: Gleason/Allen, next pairing Pitkanen/McBain, then we run Joslin Harrison. Our defense got better. We run Faulk as right PP point with Pitkanen, we run Kabs and McBain as the second PP point men!!
You gotta admit it’s origianl and can’t be any worse on the forwards than what Mo already does. Heck, If we get behind we run Faulk out more on regular pairings….
Kaberle get’s relieved of some defensive duties, or if McBain plays like last game he and Faulk sit and We play Kabs on one of the defensive pairings.
Bing Bang Boom, Mo’s in Heaven and has a team he can really coach…..
I don't understand..
Is there any indication that outside forces are making him play the lines they way they are being played? I mean, JR has stated we need to get younger; he’s stated this is a rebuilding year; he’s stated certain prospects are NHL ready. Why does this line play continue to happen when it’s obvious it’s not what we perceive JR wants.
If I were JR, knowing what I said and seeing those stats, I’d be down Mo’s throat or at least broaching the subject more. I don’t know, but did Mo do the same thing in Toronto?
Something’s just not right, I don’t understand…..
Mo is family, and this org values that above all else, including performance. The only reason he was fired the last time is because the fans started voting with their wallets. They absolutely would have kept him if they could have maintained attendance, record be damned. Until there are talks about this franchise moving again, Mo will remain employed.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
So then JR just really has no ego problem and is ok with family doing exactly what he doesn’t want happening? I don’t care that Mo isn’t fired yet or still employed. What worries me and what I don’t get, is why JR continues to just observe and not try to set mindsets in a different direction. Paul must be a good salesman of his system and his thoughts. If I were JR, I’d say, 4th line gets at least 10-15 min a game (or more)… period. Understand that Mo’s the coach blah blah, but as part owner, my advice or opinions should be heard.
by Charles Lawton on Nov 15, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
This organization is a family. Karmanos would never fire JR, and JR will go thru hell before he’ll fire Mo. One has to wonder what this franchise might look like if Karmanos didn’t have control over it.
One has to wonder what this franchise might look like if Karmanos didn’t have control over it.
Like a hockey team committed to winning probably.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
And I should add that I don’t mind Karmanos sticking to a budget. We are a small market team. I want the team to stay for a long time and I respect that Karmanos wants to be fiscally responsible. But being a good smaller market team means doing everything better. Drafting well, good coaching, etc. JR has made some fine deals in his tenure, and like all GM’s has dropped some stinkers as well. But there is no systematic approach to this organization. The GM, AHL and NHL coaches and the scouts should all be on the same page regarding what kind of team they want and what kind of players will get there. Here it’s all over the map.
by Hockeydog on Nov 15, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I doubt this franchise would be in Raleigh if Karmanos didn’t own it. Be careful what you wish for.
Harrumph
I will keep saying this until changes are made………………vote with your feet. Why would anyone walk up and pay for the product on the ice right now? I love the team, want them to succeed here, but can’t support what they are offering.
Until people stand up and vote by staying away, nothing will change. I used to find a way to watch, listen or attend every game since this team has come to Raleigh, until now. I am done and encourage people who feel the same to do the same. We can argue all day on these boards about these issues but nothing will get their attention like hitting their pocketbooks.
by Canes Pucknut on Nov 15, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
“People” can do as they see fit. If they want to support the NHL in Raleigh despite the product, they can do that. If they want to send email to their ticket reps or mgmt, they can do that. They can go to any number of fan events and make their feelings known. And yes, they can scale back on going to games. However, if people LIKE going to live hockey, it’s perfectly okay if they continue to do so.
Atlanta fans staying away in droves put hockey franchises in Calgary and Winnipeg. Instead buy a ticket and start the "Mo must go’ chant. Trust me you won’t be a solo for long. JR is in the building and will get message quicker than slow ticket sale atrophy
Or the kick you out like they did the first time. The only thing that PK speaks is " $ ".
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
As I stated previously, the only reason they fired him the first time was because the fans started voting with their wallets. If the attendance had remained steady there never would have been a Lavi era and all that the era entailed, IE no cup.
They will not fire Mo because A) He’s family and B) NO ONE, not even the paying customer is going to tell PK how to run his franchise. As long as enough seats are filled to break even or make the loses a beneficial tax right off, Mo will be the coach.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
My seats is section 106 will be available next season so they will be there for those who “LIKE going to live hockey”
by Canes Pucknut on Nov 15, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Just my $0.02
Not in response to Canes Pucknut in particular.
Several years (2006-2007) ago the Philadelphia Flyers were the worst team in the NHL. Worst. Yet their attendance home and away outdrew a large percentage of the league, even us. Call the Flyer fans what you will but they are NOT fair weather fans. I’d love to stay away but like last night, I actually got to see a great skilled team play a fast, up-tempo style and dominate their opponent. Just wasn’t my team.
Harrumph
Tell me did the Flyers have the same Mediocre Coach
For a Decade….finally see him fired…New Coach come in and win Cup…only to be fired a couple years later due to just missing the playoffs….only to see the same Mediocre Coach rehired to continue the madness in to a new decade of missing the playoffs 4 years out of 5 years with the GM and owner giddy over those results?
Laviolette needed to go when he did. He missed the playoffs two straight years and was on the verge of missing again when he was canned. Sound familiar?
by Cory Lavalette on Nov 15, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
I just feel he was never suppored the way Mo has been
And if the Results was the primary reason for firing him….why on EARTH would Maurice be the replacement? His results are have been HORRIBLE in comparrison (talking Career results here)
The re-hiring of Mo is really the issue, if you fire a proven winner after a couple of years of just missing the playoffs with Major injuries and no help from GM at trade deadline…then why is Mo still here??? and better yet what is the logical reason for him to have been re-hired? Not Performance that is clear!
JR made some moves … Seidenberg, Vasicek and Carter in 2007. Corvo/Eaves for Stillman/Commodore, Ruutu for Ladd.
No, he hasn’t had the same support as Mo, but to be fair Lavi has a bit of a rep as someone who burns out a team pretty quickly.
by Cory Lavalette on Nov 15, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Enabler:
one that enables another to achieve an end; especially : one who enables another to persist in self-destructive behavior (as substance abuse) by providing excuses or by making it possible to avoid the consequences of such behavior
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
Anyone who minimizes the negative affect that Lavi’s complete and utter lack of support had on his record here.
Ru for Ladd was a push at the time and really, has worked out to essentially be a push. Both players are doing what is expected them, Ladd maybe more so be being a captain.
All the Carter trade did was give me an awesome jersey.
The Corvo/Eaves trade is really the only one of any consequence that was made to assist him. The others being typical JR retread or " Hey look, I did something stop complaining " type moves.
I know you have to walk a fine line to keep the homers happy, but don’t imply that Lavi was supported by the org. He wasn’t.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
We’re basically in the same boat with Maurice right now as we were with Lavi. So one shouldn’t have been fired then and the other should now? Furthermore, it’s pretty easy to say the roster Lavi had at the end is better than the one Mo has right now.
I have certainly not aligned myself in the “Keep Mo” camp … but it seems many forget how bad the team was under Lavi in the end. It was brutal, perhaps more brutal than this is right now.
by Cory Lavalette on Nov 15, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
It was much worse and painful to watch the Hurricanes under the Lavi at the end than it has been now. Now the players are trying hard. They give effort and clearly want to win. I am totally in agreement with Cory. I also find Cory to be extremely fair-minded and balanced in his opinions.
We missed the playoffs by losing our last game under both Lavi and Mo. When Lavi was fired the next year, he had a record of 12-11 (2 OT losses). Mo now has a record of 6-9 (3). I’ll give in the fact that Mo has a less talented line up. But Lavi never coached a dumbed down, defensive system. I think all things being equal had having a talent laden team, I’ll take Peter Laviolette.
Harrumph
No one was attacking anyones credibility as a journalist. As I mentioned in a previous thread, this org is run like a dictatorship and you better fall in line with the company line in order to have any sort of true access. Methinks certain people doth protest WAY to much when there is a statement made that could even remotely be implied as saying there are some homeristic tendencies. One may want to step back from them selves and wonder why such vehement protest are one’s first response.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
But isn’t this true w/ alot of sports media? I remember when Herb Senkek was under fire and he’d be on the air with sports radio personalities (e.g. Adam Gold for one). Adam would say critical things about NCSU and Sendek’s coaching all the time, but when he’d be on air w/ him, only soft-ball questions and comments would be given to Herb. I understand that a sports reporter doesn’t want to bite the hand that feeds it, but hard questions (maybe even uncomfortable questions) need to be asked directly to the coach(es), GM.
Harrumph
I’ve never had my access questioned, and neither has Bob. And I know there have been times when things have made the org less than thrilled. But you would know all about that.
by Cory Lavalette on Nov 16, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
I’m sorry, but I don’t recall mentioning Bob at all. Was there a reason he was brought into this conversation?
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 16, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
You said “you better fall in line with the company line in order to have any sort of true access.” That would imply that anyone who has access has to bow to the org. Since I have worked with Bob for some time (and Brian more recently), I know for fact that both he and I have not had our access to the team dangled b/c of something we wrote.
by Cory Lavalette on Nov 16, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Right, so you weren’t invoking daddy, got it.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 16, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Right … b/c you’re such a handful. LOL.
by Cory Lavalette on Nov 16, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I was just insuring you were maintaining the high level of journalistic integrity that you so loudly trumpet whenever someone mentions that an article or comment might have a homeward slant. Such an upstanding example of the profession would certainly not engage in flame war with a viewer of said site…oh wait…..
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 16, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Just like you maintain the highest level of anonymity possible. Also, “profession” would indicate this is my job and that I’m paid for it. But this is simply a hobby for me. I’m not obligated by anyone to be objective, so what you hear/read from me are my beliefs on the team. B/c they don’t always line up with yours doesn’t make them “homer” opinions, it just means we have differing opinions. What exactly would I gain from being, as you would say, a homer? Do they give better press box seats for that?
by Cory Lavalette on Nov 16, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, I emailed you directly the last time you climbed on this soapbox of condescending righteousness , gave you my real name, and advised that I was not going to get into a flame war with you on your own board. You never responded.
The internet is a place for anonymity if you so choose it. I do. You don’t, good for you.
You have my name, my personal email, and if you want to continue to be condescending, you are welcome to do so. Feel free to now get the last word and " win "
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 16, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
I never got an email from you. Perhaps it went to my junk folder. I make it a point to respond to the emails I get, so if you felt slighted for that, I apologize. I’m not interested in such conversations either, which is why I don’t instigate them. I would say calling someone an “enabler” is more condescending than making someone responsible for their words … but whatever.
by Cory Lavalette on Nov 16, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Furthermore, I’m not here to keep anyone happy with my opinions. I think I’m pretty fair on all things related to the team — if people don’t like what i have to say, that’s fine. But let’s not act like I’m here to give support to the team’s every decision.
by Cory Lavalette on Nov 15, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
If you disagree with certain people you are called a Homer. Your point of view doesn’t matter, you have dared to disagree and therefore must be named.
by drifterscape on Nov 16, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, and " pink ". Now you can say " blue ".
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Lavi missed the playoffs with 88 and 92 points and was 12 – 11 -2 when fired with a start vastly better than Mo’s starts the last three seasons. Lavi did not need to be fired for posting those results on the heels of a 112 point Stanley Cup winning season.
How many times in his long career has Mo exceeded the 88 points that Lavi piled up in his worst full season as a Canes’ coach? Once in his first 9 seasons, when he got 91 points in 2001-2002 and was the second worst team to qualify for the playoffs. Once last season, when Mo missed the playoffs with 91 points after a furious rally from yet another disastrous start. Mo has coached the Canes for 12 seasons and has only twice exceeded Mo’s worst full season.
Rehiring Mo was the stupidest move JR and PK could possibly have made. It’s their money, but they’ll get no more of mine.
Maybe Lavi needed to go for other reasons, but it was not because of perfornance on the ice. His only losing season was the partial season when he took over from Mo and couldn’t fix things until the following year, when he won the Cup. He had a 96 pt season with the Islanders, a 106 pt season with the Flyers, and a 112 pt season with the Canes. That is not bad for a guy who has coached 7 full NHL seasons. He has also made the playoffs 5 times and been to the finals and the second round besides winning the Cup. That is amazing productivity compared with Mo’s.
It also seems reasonable at this point now that we are again seeing Mo hockey in all its glory to infer that Mo’s great season after taking over from Lavi was mostly due to the inability to totally wipe out Lavi’s system by year end. When Mo had time to do things his way, he gave us that memorable 80 point season where a late rally deprived the Canes of a top choice. Mo repeated the bad start and futile late rally again last year, once again depriving the Canes at a shot a top forward.
We are in for yet another repeat of that sad tale this year if JR does nothing as the years tick by on the second coming of Mo. JR and PK can do as they please, but some of us are not buying any more tickets to Canes games from this point forward. If PK moves the Canes, so be it. If the choice is between live hockey coached by Mo and no live hockey, I vote for no live hockey. PK and JR don’t have to present us with that choice. If they do, they can’t expect everybody to keep subsidizing futility for the sake of seeing better visiting teams.
Dump on Lavi all you want for lack of corporate management skills or a congenial personality or for intolerable insubordination or whatever, but don’t dump on his performance as a coach. He coaches to win and overwhelmingly he does win. It is sadly misguided to pretend otherwise.
by curiouscanesfan on Nov 15, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
But I thought you loved me? Cheater!
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
You know I don’t drink.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 16, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Gave it up 7 years ago, but don’t worry, I had already packed about 36 years worth into my then 26 years worth.
Ivy, make it Buckler and you have a deal :)
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 16, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Great summary!
"I'm not going to waste my time with Tuukka Rask" - Cam Ward
by anonymousJ on Nov 15, 2011 10:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
AMEN!! Please save this and repost
everytime someone tries to paint the reason that Lavi was fired had anything to do with Results!!!
I have tried to no avail to point all of this out before but there are several on this board that just keep their head in the sand (or somewhere dark and stinky) and believe anything JR or PK say about why Lavi was fired.
Atlanta was never a good hockey market. This market has shown it has been and continue to be a great hockey market. I agree that everyone if free to do as they like but also believe that hurting them financially sends the strongest message.
I still believe the problem is larger than just Mo but getting rid of him is a well needed start.
by Canes Pucknut on Nov 15, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yes Mo did the exact same things in Toronto
The press and fans had the exact same conversations we are having now—running the same goalie into the ground. not using a 4th line, over using top players, not using prospects….
Same complaints. Same coach….
….same results. How much sitting on the bench not playing your game, not getting a chance to use your skills in a game situation does it take before a prospect loses some of those same skills? Loses any confidence??
I’m disappointed in Maurice for his handling of the question, he is usually open and frank with the media, giving honest and thought-out responses, which is one of the few things I like about the guy.
Like jfhammon said, this team isn’t going to be a big spender in free agency, and really it is rare that a team is able to completely change their fortunes by bringing in outside talent to form their core, more often than not the core of a team is drafted and complimentary pieces are added as needed.
The team was mounting a comeback in the third (or so I’m told) so I understand Mo leaning on the top-6 in the third, but why use those guys so sparingly in the first 40 minutes? Logic says that Eric Staal with 13-15 minutes on his legs going into the third will have more zip than Eric Staal with 17-20 minutes of wear.
Late in the third there didn’t appear to be much of a surge, even with the game in reach. Maybe using the 4th line more in the first and second will give the top 6 more juice in the last ten minutes.
If not using the youngsters was because of mounting a comeback, then when should they play? Surely not when the team has a lead it needs to protect. Certainly not when the game is tied, they could allow a goal !
This favoring of the same guys all over again and not give others a chance drives me crazy.
Fire Mo and hire somebody who could be fired on MERIT, not because he is your friend.
This is not Paul’s first rodeo. He has ridden this bull before. This is not the first time Jim R has seen this movie. Could be like “Groundhog’s Day” to him. What you and many other Canes fans see as a glaring coaching mistake is actually a purposeful action by Mo and /or JR. Has to be. The 2 are experienced, highly qualified hockey minds. This non use can not be an oversight or miscalculation.
I would ask Mo “What purpose is served by benching the 3?” Even the candor of saying “This was an important game, too important to audition the kids” Would help us get it.We will know much more when we can grasp purpose for their benching. I hope you can open that chapter sooner rather than later.
I have long defended Paul Maurice
if not prolifically, at least vocally on these boards in the past. But I can’t do it anymore. I always felt in the past that he would have been tremendously successful if he’d had a few more knights and not so many pawns to play with….and I still believe that is true of past campaigns. But in my mind it comes down to three things that are the source of our problems and they all go back to Mo. 1. Constantly shuffling lines in game to try to put guys who are “on” together rather than letting lines build some chemistry. 2. Our PP is abhorrent and PK is mediocre at best….goes directly to coaching. 3.“Chesty” LaRose should never make it above the 3rd line. I know he’s an energy guy and beloved and all that….but he doesn’t have the skill to finish or the playmaking vision to be out there on the scoring lines (hence the nickname Chesty….for always hitting the goalie square in the chest). I think last night showed (again) that Dwyer deserves #59’s minutes.
by NoVa Caniac on Nov 15, 2011 2:53 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
DING!!! DING!!! DING!!!
1. Constantly shuffling lines in game to try to put guys who are "on" together rather than letting lines build some chemistry.
This is a HUGE problem… drives me nuts.
******YAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWNNNNNN*******
what’s going on y’all? i miss anything?
Of Maurice, Karmanos said: "I’m happy Paul is back but he’s going to be judged the same way as any other coach. We need to win more consistently."
by Sergeant Stinky on Nov 15, 2011 3:25 PM EST reply actions
enough is enough!
Being from Connecticut, I’ve been a Whalers/Hurricanes fan since the day I was born. After the whalers moved to north carolina, I had to stomach 2 seasons of the New Haven Beast (and got to watch Charlotte coach Jeff Daniels every night) but I still supported the canes. We finally have some good young guys in the system and they’re just wasting away. Jeff Daniels would be a great coach for the cane. He coached many of the younger guys in the AHL and knows how to motivate the young guys who’ve been stuck burried in the minors. Either Paul Maurice gets the can, and make Jeff Daniels the head coach or I’m going to start rooting for the Islanders. As horrible as their record is, atleast they play the young guys and it’s fun to watch their effort. Give them another year or 2 and they’ll be at the top of the eastern conference. The penguins and flyers went from bottom feeders in the early 2000’s to being powerhouses now. At this rate the canes are going to swim thru mediocrity until people stop showing up and the team moves to quebec
I’m going to start rooting for the Islanders
Let’s not do anything drastic. There are people here who love and care about you. We want to talk to you and do all we can to make you happy. Please step away from the ledge, step out of the window, and come back to us.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
hahahahahahahah, have you ever been to an Islanders home game? they play the chicken dance over the PA and show a chicken in a rangers jersey dancing on the jumbotron. when you’re supposed to clap 3 times everyone yells RANGERS SUCK! Most of the hurricanes games i go to are when they play the islanders and you actually dont get things thrown at you while walking around in a Bates Battaglia hurricanes jersey. as long as you hate the rangers, you;re alright on long island.
No worries....
14th Place. Mid-November. Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock. I’m guessing the week after Thanksgiving the turkey will no longer have it’s head on.
Hold your breath
I want to see how long you last.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
How is it that most of us fans and most of the hockey media see that Paul Maurice is not the right man for the job; yet PK & JR seem content to let him flush the season down the toilet and ruin the confidence of every high level prospect we have?
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
It could be as simple an answer as the Hurricanes organization does not want to pay two head coaches and the worse that can happen is the Hurricanes luck into another Staal or Skinner in the draft.
Isn’t this his final contract year? And… we have some coaching talent in the ranks already. This would cost a lot less than Kaberle.
Last season the Hurricanes lost Carson to waivers because they weren’t prepared to pay him as a healthy scratch, which was a cost of around $200,000.00. I can’t see Karmanos paying Maurice not to coach. Maybe I am wrong.
Yet we started the season with 3 defenseman sitting. One of those players was Murphy, who never even got to see game action. So we paid there.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
That concussion just gives JR another excuse to pass up D-men in the first round.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
I can understand the penny-pinching. But seriously, don’t you think that firing Mo, getting rid of this “bury our first round picks while exhausting our top-end stars so they collapse in the third and keep them out there because we’re trying to make a comeback” system, and hiring (or promoting) a coach that can institute an exciting offense and balanced-lined system would be worth it? I think it’d be worth it. I mean anybody here think it’d be better to pay Mo to not coach?
the worse that can happen is the Hurricanes luck into another Staal or Skinner in the draft.
AD, that is difinitely not the worst that could happen. We could fail this year and simply miss on our top selection. That generally happens to at least one team every year.
And maybe I’m wrong here, but I do feel like we have some talent on this team. All it takes is for the talent to start playing better and/or Cam to get hot and we work ourselves out of a lottery pick (I’m referring to a top 5 pick) yet again.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
I think we have some talent here as well. Not up and down the lineup like the elite teams, but I think the team can do better than they are.
Here's the Pen's line up
Sullivan-Malkin-Neal
Kunitz-Staal-Dupuis
Cooke-Park-Kennedy
Asham-Vitale-Adams
Defense:
Niskanen
Engelland
Martin
Orpik
LeTang
Picard
OK now compare that team to ours and tell me they have so much more talent than us??? Or is it better coaching?
The announcer for tonights game have been commenting on how the Canes have one skill line that kills you with passing and sniping, then thye have grinding and Battling lines, than power net driving guys. In other words the coach has different lines play to their uniques strength and skills. This team, even with Corsby Malkin and Staal all healthy still runs 4 lines, and the 4th line gets more than twice the time our guys get—almost three times the amount…
One thing I notice about that lineup is the defense. They really only have 1 “offensive” defenseman. The rest are two-way or defensive defensemen. So maybe Pittsburgh has their defensemen play defense and have their forwards worry about the offense?
Honestly, Pittsburgh is a well coached team that adjusts their style of play depending on the players they have in the lineup. Sometimes they are more aggressive offensively, sometimes they focus more on defense. Its quite a novel concept; playing the way that best suits the players you have!
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
by PackPride17 on Nov 15, 2011 11:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agree
And I would contend, with the exception of Crosby (who’s been out for almost a year) and Malkin, who was out all last year, we have equalt or better talent than Pitt. Yet they get consistent results no matter who they plug into the line up…. They’ve had bigger turnover and lost more people than us—they replace them with equal bit parts. Yet the whole is greater than the sum of their parts.
THAT is coaching. We lack it. Our whole is less than the sum of our parts…..
Agreed that is coaching and THE GM.
JR has to shoulder responsibility in this as well. It will be easier to get rid of MO than JR as now JR is “part owner”.
I am not happy about his ownership interest as it could make it very sticky to change GM’s if that is needed as well somewhere down the road.
by Canes Pucknut on Nov 16, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
We cannot always build the future for our youth, but we can build our youth for the future.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
by littlepig on Nov 15, 2011 4:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Good responce littlepig!!
but sadly we live in a “microwave” age of Instant gratification,instant coffe pop corn & etc…and in pro hockey…there are times when we fans do come to expect too much too soon…but in the Case of the Canes..the last 2 years…the front office has built, has built up a great set of prospects and up and comers that have proven their worth in the AHL..and etc.. while each of us has different ways of looking at the Canes current situation,but the final discissions will come down from the ront office & ownership no matter how much we fans & STH rant & rave about this..on one hand staying away tactic has and is a 2 edge sword to it if the fans stay away too long the team can and will close or move as ATL did/has..grant it ATL is NOT a real solid hockey community..where we here had enough exposure and understood the flavor of the game..so we the fan base do need to say & do something..but to do so with care,wisdom and caution…Good article Brian…thank you for speaking out as you have for all of us…
9/11/01 - Never Forget !!
Long Live #63 The Condor
Go Canes & Checkers !!!
Steve, how are we expecting too much too soon? We have “skilled” prospects that are not even given the opportunity to play. And by that I mean, they are only getting 5 minutes of ice time. Did they do anything wrong to be forced to sit on the bench? Were the other players playing that much better?
It seems as if JR has said these are the players you are going to use and Maurice says; I will not use them. They are not gaining NHL “game” experience just watching and we are still losing games with the “vets”.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
Were the other players playing that much better?
That to me is the killer in the whole mess. No argument if Mo’s trusted players are getting the job done, but they are not. Nothing to lose and everything to gain at this point.
One measurement for whether Moz Boyz are playing well is that the Hurricanes are tied for 28th in the NHL (as far as total points). One can’t get much lower in the standings. As such, how much worse could the Hurricanes do as far as falling in the rankings if Maurice chose to play Dalpe and Boychuk.
Doug. more simply
only TWO teams in the league have won less than us. They have games in hand. It could turn out that only ONE team has less wins than us by the time they get to this stage…
We
are
not
getting
it
done
Occupy Carolina @ 1400 edwards mill rd.
Mi piace l'hockey su ghiaccio.
l'hockey è buono qui .. sì?
I am sure the Iraqi Information Minister is available. He can talk about how the cup is within our reach and how we have not lost any games, we are undefeated this year.
I believe in strength. I believe in unity. And if that strength, that unity of purpose, demands a uniformity of thought, word and deed then so be it.
by Douchebag St John on Nov 15, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Funny…. FWIW, I just found a “Mo Must Go” page on FaceBook. Kudos to that person for originality.
by xlwino on Nov 15, 2011 4:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I swear to God it wasn’t me
Of Maurice, Karmanos said: "I’m happy Paul is back but he’s going to be judged the same way as any other coach. We need to win more consistently."
by Sergeant Stinky on Nov 15, 2011 7:39 PM EST reply actions
The bottom line appears to be that some/most of us fans want to see management do the “fair” thing and fire Mo. Lavi might have worn out his welcome, but so has Mo to the fans. We fired Lavi for having a poor record and “losing” the team. The right thing for managment to do is fire Maurice for having an even poorer record and “losing” the team.
Right now Mo is hell-bent on saving his job at the potential expense of the organizations future (the prospects). JR, just do the right thing and get rid of your friend. Make a few trades and bring in a coach that will work with the core players and prospects to develop a team for next season that us Caniacs can be proud of.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
by PackPride17 on Nov 15, 2011 7:46 PM EST via mobile reply actions
“I’m happy Paul is back but he’s going to be judged the same way as any other coach. We need to win more consistently.” – Mr. Karamanos
Is he a liar then?
Of Maurice, Karmanos said: "I’m happy Paul is back but he’s going to be judged the same way as any other coach. We need to win more consistently."
by Sergeant Stinky on Nov 15, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
I believe results speak for themselves on that one.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
by PackPride17 on Nov 15, 2011 8:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Regardless....
The Lavi vs Mo debate has run it’s course, it ran it’s course long ago. You can’t guarantee that if Lavi were coaching this group the results would be different. The fact is this is not a team that’s capable of winning every night and Paul Maurice is still the head coach. While I won’t say that I think he’s doing a great job I also don’t think changing the coach will turn the team into a Stanley Cup contender. It sucks but this isn’t that good of a team, period. If it were there wouldn’t be a revolving door on the first line and we wouldn’t be getting beat 5-1 every few games.
yeah, I used to play
I can guarantee the games would be more entertaining to watch……
It sucks but this isn’t that good of a team, period. If it were there wouldn’t be a revolving door on the first line and we wouldn’t be getting beat 5-1 every few games.
And, we would be if the players were not buying into the coaches system or not listening to his coaching. It’s also hard to say when other teams give their players and lines longer to gel together before making changes. Somethin Mo also fails at….
You are right that a coaching change wouldn’t make us a Cup contender, but it would probably improve the team’s on-ice work ethic/their motivation. I also believe that Mo is currently harming the prospects by running them less than 5 minutes, showing no confidence in them, and thus hurting their confidence levels; making effecting their entire NHL career. I think a new coach with a better understanding on player development could halt that process and hopefully help the players get back on the path of being projected NHL top 6, top 9, top 4 players.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
by PackPride17 on Nov 15, 2011 10:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
make no mistake
I am no Maurice apologist but you can’t look at me with a straight face and say “running them less than 5 minutes, showing no confidence in them, and thus hurting their confidence levels; making effecting their entire NHL career”. A bit of a stretch there, don’t give the head coach that much credit.
yeah, I used to play
You honestly don’t think that effects young players confidence? Have you ever played sports? Confidence is vital! Look at slumps, look at hot streaks.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
by PackPride17 on Nov 15, 2011 10:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not their entire career it doesn’t, these guys are playing hockey at the highest level there is. If they lose confidence because of one coach at this level after playing this game for this long, come on man…
yeah, I used to play
These kids have little to no NHL experience. If their first experience is this bad, it very well could effect there confidence. Their are plenty of high-level prospects that don’t make it in the NHL. Mo has basically told these players to change their style of play and they are not as effective as playing “their” game albeit at lower levels. What if they focus so much on playing Mo hockey to get playing time, they forget how to play the game that got them to the show? Hence greatly effecting their chances of making another NHL squad, it is certainly possible.
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
by PackPride17 on Nov 15, 2011 11:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
JR is just getting his boy Mo to damage the prospects’ confidence so we can trade damaged goods for damaged goods.
Everyone knows JR loves a good reclamation project. Gotta get in their heads before you trade damaged for damaged.
by Iggy Reilly on Nov 15, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
OK Glove side
Explain to me then, how taking a prospect who has been successful plaing in an offensive role on top line throughout their career, and who were drafted for those skills, develops an NHL game under MO?
Explain to me how getting less than five minutes a night in actual game time, being told to play a grinder/battler role, being told not to make mistakes, will somehow bring out their offensive skills at the NHL level.
Explain to me how that treatment would allot them to even keep the skills they had. Notice Dalpe did nothing on his conditioning stint after such treatment.
Explain to me, how if they’ve not been able to play their offensive game and use their skills, decision making, timing and vision, how they will magically remember those skills if they get a chance on a higher line later. Explain to me, if once they get that chance, and it’s likely they don’t immediately produce because they need to adapt to new linemates, the NHL speed and size, the NHL better goalies, so they don’t produce immediately, so Mo puts them back on the fourth line, how is that not going to start causing them to doubt themselves or their potential????
jeff skinner was able to do it just fine
which frustrates the crap outta me as to why mo can’t or won’t do it with the other dudes
Of Maurice, Karmanos said: "I’m happy Paul is back but he’s going to be judged the same way as any other coach. We need to win more consistently."
by Sergeant Stinky on Nov 16, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
And instead of “making effecting”, it was suppose to say “maybe effecting.”
It's time for change! "If you want to change the culture, you will have to start by changing the organization." - Mary Douglas
by PackPride17 on Nov 15, 2011 10:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think many people here would be in agreement with me if I said that this season, we would really like to see some exciting hockey from young, talented, skilled kids. If that means our record stays the same as it is now, then fine, as long as I can enjoy going to the RBC Center and enjoying what is on the ice. Right now it is frustrating.
No question, more entertaining but you had to know that when no effort was made to bring in a legit first line winger that this was going to be a long year.
yeah, I used to play
I was Ok with scoring by comittee, with Stewart, Poni Dalpe, Boychuk we could easily have replaced Cole’s contributions—if they were allowed to play…
But I knew it was going to be a long year when Mo was still coach and JR signed LaRose AND Dwyer…..
After signing Dwyer, LaRose should have been left to find his way in the league away from the loving and enshrouding arms of the Karmonos family…
could be worse....
ah well, at least you’re not a Calgary Flames fan, talk about futility
yeah, I used to play
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