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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

So who's gettin' traded?


Oy vey...lowest of the low standings-wise, Staal in meltdown mode, Cammie giving up more than the occasional softie, other teams flying through the neutral zone. Still, you can see bits and pieces of improvement in overall play and effort, and the powerplay is getting fixed. It's obvious several players can't or won't fix what's wrong in their individual games, and there is no hope for the playoffs as things currently stand. All that would point to major trading in the days after Christmas. So who's going?

Star-divide

Obviously, there is Tuomo Ruutu, a UFA who is playing pretty decent on a line with the now invisible Jussi Jokinen. I'm sure there are teams out there who see him as a strong banger on the 2nd/3rd line who can screen goalies on the powerplay, he's sure to generate interest. I would rank him as first to go just because of his net worth.

On defense, there's Timmy "Can't-Move-Fast-Anymore" Gleason who has gotten pretty good at leaving his man open in front of the net and screening his own goalie. I love Timmay from 2 years ago, HATE the current version. If someone sees him as a veteran who can play on a 2nd/3rd pairing, I could see him gone.

Allen and Spacek? Don't know what we could get for them, likely draft picks. Might be attractive to someone, maybe Philly.

Nash/Bowman/Boychuk/Dalpe, et. al. down in Charlotte? When called-up, only Bowman has shown anything substantive, and that was just in one game. Not sure if JR is committed to giving them all a shot up here or just using as trade bait. If I had to pick some to keep, I would keep Bowman and Dalpe just because they are somewhat bigger than Nash/Boychuk and could develop into 3rd liners, maybe 2nd liners over time.

Rosie? Career year, has played with guts and drive -- he just is too damn weak on the puck along the boards and misses so many freaking shots wide or shoots right into the goalie's chest. It's getting old -- trade him while he's at his peak.

Stewart/Ponikorovsky? Has either one really shown his worth? Both have a handful of goals, but they've come in spurts. I don't think either was a good pickup at all by JR.

So I know it seems like I have us trading half the team, but on a team as bad as ours, I don't think that's necessarily bad. I would not be completely surprised to see a mega deal involving Staal, but I doubt JR would want to part with him without trying to bring in some decent linemates for him. I would think maybe giving him an A and moving the C elsewhere (Sutter?) could help matters, who knows.

Thoughts?

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After reading all that gloom, I think that you need some Christmas joy. Merry Christmas Stink! and my best wishes for something to cheer about in the New Year.

by sittler27 on Dec 23, 2011 8:37 AM EST reply actions  

lol, made my day!

right back at ya. here’s hoping a kick-ass second half of the season at the ESA/RBC/PNC/Mo/Lavi/Mo/Muller Dome

LET'S GO CANES -- THE SEASON AIN'T OVER YET!!!

by Capt. Stinky on Dec 23, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you hit on the most likely players that would draw some interest and some return. I would hope he can package a deal for that first line winger for Staal now since I am not sure he will have the needed assets after July 1. Not even really sure he has the assets now to do that unless he flips picks he picks up in the next couple of weeks with a prospect and roster player or some combination. I would hate losing that 1st round pick so if he uses it it has to be a block-buster deal in my view.

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tzu circa 4th Century BC

by hurricanefever on Dec 23, 2011 10:48 AM EST reply actions  

I see a deal for Larose.. he has been scoring a bit and a team in a playoff push may want him…

by dbaerry34 on Dec 23, 2011 12:11 PM EST reply actions  

Who's Going to Be Moved

Gleason: likely to be traded; fighting injuries last season, probably banged up this season; Canes need fresh blood

Allen: likely to be traded; but I hate to see him go if Gleason is traded; I hope Rutherford exercises restraint here

LaRose: for all the reasons discussed, he should be traded; too expensive for a team looking to be economical and not enough upper end skill despite the innumerable positives with respect to intangibles

Ruutu: as an UFA he is on the block; it’s a huge, huge mistake; take the harm losing Cole did (without a replacement) then multiple it by 1,000; hopefully Rutherford has learned his lesson and will pay FMV to keep Ruutu; it’s a market, players have certain values

Jokinen: I hate badly to see Jokinen leave; but with young forwards knocking on the door, my spidey senses say Jokinen and not Ruutu will be traded – the same senses that said Rutherford would work a miracle an trade Kaberle (foolish trade by Montreal)

Harrison: more spidey senses; no reason other than instinct; the way Harrison continues to improve, looks like a mistake to trade him as far as I am concerned; and I did not begin being a Harrison advocate, but am now;

Ponikarovsky: I think Rutherford will get a good enough offer on Ponikarovsky to trade him; I think Ponikarovsky could work well for the Hurricanes under Muller; and want Rutherford to exercise restraint;

In summary, lots of defensemen will go. Two forwards have to go to make space for two top six forwards. LaRose is the most likely candidate because he is up on his game heading toward a 20 goal season and did not make a splash in the top six. Some other forward has to go to make space for another top six forward.

by abramsdoug on Dec 23, 2011 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

Too conservative by a bit.

Trade Larose high. I like him, but sell high and all that.
Trade Gleason, if the return is decent (at least 2nd rnd pick)
Trade Pitkanen if the return is very good (1st rnd, prospects)
Trade any of the lower line players… Poni, Stewart, whoever.
Trade Staal, if another youngish first line player can be had in return.
Feel free to throw in any Charlotte players as pot-sweeteners. Any.

I agree with Doug, I’d like to hang on to Allen. Also I see no need to dump Ruutu or Jokinen. They make a good pair of second line forwards. Harrison should stay as well. The only true untouchables should be Faulk, Ward, Sutter, Skinner, and… hell, I think that is it. Maybe McBain.

by prplmnkydw on Dec 23, 2011 12:54 PM EST reply actions  

Rebuilding the Hurricanes

I want to emphasize how much I agree with your assessment on Ruutu, and ultimately on Jokinen. The last thing a rebuilding team should do it dig the hole deeper by jettisoning productive, almost impossible to replace, players. Ruutu to me is irreplaceable. Last night was a prime example of Ruutu willing a win while Staal, although busting his chops the entire game could not manage to get on the score sheet. Jokinen does so many things well and works so well with Skinner and Ruutu that it is not a great plan to trade him.

Focusing first on the forwards, the question should be “which forwards can we trade and upgrade the talent level of the team”? So when I imagine the Hurricanes players listed on a whiteboard and am given an eraser, the forwards who could be removed from the board with minimal impact because somebody else can fill their spot better would be in this order of difficulty of replacement (1) LaRose, (2) Dwyer, (3) Ponikarovsky, (4) Stewart [as used at present not based on potential and skill level], (5) Tlusty.

Stated in the reverse, the forwards whose absence would have an immediate and deep negative impact would be: (1) Skinner, (2) Staal, (3) Ruutu, (4) Sutter, (5) Jokinen, and (6) Brent. Then comparing which forwards the Hurricanes organization needs to bring up and work in the top six, there is a crowded field to choose from: (1) Dalpe, (2) Bowman, (3) Rask, (4) 1st rd pick – say Galchenyuk (whose upper end is said to exceed Taylor Hall’s); (5) Boychuk, and (6) Nash. Looking at this analysis, Boychuk is the only forward prospect among the group who is not a prototypical Muller forward due to his small size and inconsistency to date shift to shift. If one assumes Jim Rutherford has also had enough of being too thin with scoring top six forwards, the likelihood of three or more forwards being traded increases.

There is a one to one correlation. For every new forward brought up, one roster player forward has to be jettisoned. Given the logjam at forward for the prospects, I also believe Jim Rutherford will start packaging up some prospects to get draft choices. It’s a great year to load up on draft choices.

On the defensive side, if one looks at the 2012-2013 Hurricanes, the defensive safe picks to be there are (1) Pitkanen, (2) Faulk, (3) Harrison, (4) McBain, and (5) Murphy. Harrison’s development and Allen’s improved play makes Gleason surprisingly available. Dumoulin also adds some protection for Jim Rutherford in trading Gleason. Spacek has been tremendous, but I see him being traded at the deadline to help a contending team.

Based on this analysis, the expendable players in order of contract status versus difficulty of replacing would be (1) Gleason, (2) Spacek, (3) Joslin, (4) Allen. Looking at the list of Pitkanen, Faulk, Harrison, McBain, and Murphy, the glaring need for #6 and #7 defenseman would be big, fast, sandpaper defensemen who play with an old school hockey edge. This analysis would say Allen and Joslin should be retained because they fit that mold.

Sorting through the equation then, Rutherford would trade (1) LaRose, (2) Dwyer, (3) Ponikarovsky, (4) Gleason, (5) Spacek, and (6) Boychuk.

by abramsdoug on Dec 24, 2011 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

1.Timmy G
2.Allen
3.Rosey
4.Poni
5.Ruutu(rental)

Jokinen like Ruutu have been slumping since Skinner has been out and that line has arguably been the best since last season ,and if you trade Jokinen or Ruutu JR is back with the “who’s gonna come in and replace them?” question that what UFA would be out there as a replacement?…This year probably NONE as the UFA pool is scarce at best next season ,but i do see Ruutu as a rental this year for some team ,however to a team that would only use him as a rental as imo JR will attempt to bring him back.

The fact that JR is trying to move a Dman for a forward ,so if that were to happen along with Rosey and Poni i see the forward coming in to play on Staal’s line ,and with Dalpe/Boychuk ,and Brett Sutter being called up to play in the spots where Poni ,and Rosey/Ruutu were ,but who knows right now ,however with Rosey scoring it’s time to move him while his stock is high.

by hellfish on Dec 23, 2011 12:58 PM EST reply actions  

I can agree with virtually everything above. My two provisos are: (1) If you give up Ruutu you better be ready to replace him with someone who brings all the qualities he does. If it were me, I would be resigning him now if I could. (2) Any of the other moves are totally dependent on who or what we get in return. I don’t want a slew of draft picks from teams that are finishing in the top 8 of each conference unless they are #1 or #2 picks. If we are going top take lower picks, then let it be for players who we KNOW will not fit with us. In other words, for a player like Gleason for example, if I can’t get a 1 or 2 I keep him unless it appears can’t resign him. My other thought is we play the rookies for the rest of the season as soon as we can make room for them (Boychuk, Dalphe, Matsumoto, Bowman, Samson, etc.). To make room I would put veterans we do not intend to keep and who we do not expect to get a top 1 or 2 draft pick for (or something better) on waivers. If we lose the, so be it. If they are not claimed, to the AHL they go. I realize this will cost the team some money by paying extra players, but how much. Not much as all of the callups would have close to minimum NHL pay for the balance of the year. My thought is I want to know NOW and as SOON AS I CAN which one(s) of these phenoms is going to turn out to be phenomenal in the NHL.

by FoxtrotSierra on Dec 23, 2011 1:27 PM EST reply actions  

My Lists (regardless of contract status)...currently on the big squad

Keepers:
Forwards:
Staal
Ward
Skinner
Sutter
Ruutu
Bowman
Stewart
Nodl

Defense:
McBain
Spacek
Faulk
Gleason

Value on the block:
Pitkanen…..trade for forward talent with expiring contract and 1st rd draft pick
Larose…draft picks
Tlusty
Pony
Allen
Joslin
Dwyer

"Forget about style; worry about results."
Bobby Orr

by Caniac233 on Dec 26, 2011 11:42 AM EST reply actions  

I understand the Cammie is not a fwd

"Forget about style; worry about results."
Bobby Orr

by Caniac233 on Dec 26, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Staal will not be traded anytime soon. If ever till the end of his career.

Ready for the Canes to win the Cup again! :)

by thebl4ckd0g on Dec 26, 2011 9:14 PM EST reply actions  

Just throwing this out there.

Since Ruutu is on one hell of a streak right now; should JR try to resign him during the season to a Cane friendly deal or try to trade him while his value is at a high?

"We've got to risk implosion. We may explode into the biggest fireball this part of the galaxy has seen, but we've got to take that one in a million chance."
-- Captain Kirk in Star Trek 'The Naked Time'

by PackPride17 on Dec 27, 2011 1:17 PM EST reply actions  

Why Trading LaRose Makes Sense

One of the key reasons to trade LaRose is to be able to use his salary of $1.9 million to pay Ruutu a fair market value salary. For example, wouldn’t the team be better off to bring up Dalpe and pay him his salary and have Ruutu paid $4.25 million to $4.5 million than to have LaRose at $1.9 million and Dalpe? The idea is to put the best players for their positions out of the ice; and if the choice is between two equivalent players, such as LaRose and Dwyer, do with the younger, cheaper player.

Given the phletora of Canes forwards who play quite well on the third and fourth line, there is zero loss to the team in skill, and frankly there is an improvement in the skill level, by trading LaRose. It’s also an important statement to the team that a new sheriff is in town and that the rule of accountability applies to very player, even the ones beloved by the fans, organization, and owner.

by abramsdoug on Dec 27, 2011 2:17 PM EST reply actions  

That’s a big question; is Ruutu worth $4.5 million + over the next 3 seasons? If so, then why wasn’t Cole? I feel pretty confident that Cole would have taken only 3 years to stay here if the salary was right.

"We've got to risk implosion. We may explode into the biggest fireball this part of the galaxy has seen, but we've got to take that one in a million chance."
-- Captain Kirk in Star Trek 'The Naked Time'

by PackPride17 on Dec 27, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Ruutu is younger than Cole and hitting his prime. He is a great building block for any team.

LET'S GO CANES -- THE SEASON AIN'T OVER YET!!!

by Capt. Stinky on Dec 27, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Ruutu is younger, but both have some injury history and Cole has a little more production than Ruutu has ever been able to produce.

"We've got to risk implosion. We may explode into the biggest fireball this part of the galaxy has seen, but we've got to take that one in a million chance."
-- Captain Kirk in Star Trek 'The Naked Time'

by PackPride17 on Dec 27, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Cole’s production is wya too streaky and disappears in various years. He has had better seasons than Ruu, but his best are some few years ago…

by Squeaky83 on Dec 28, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

4 of the past 6 seasons, Cole has produced over 20 goals and is on his way to another 20+ goal season.

Ruutu on the other hand has only produced one 20 goal season (he is on his way to a 2nd).

And other than an injury season, Cole was pretty much a consistent point producer since the lockout.

I’m not saying Ruutu isn’t good, but Cole has produced better than Ruutu.

"We've got to risk implosion. We may explode into the biggest fireball this part of the galaxy has seen, but we've got to take that one in a million chance."
-- Captain Kirk in Star Trek 'The Naked Time'

by PackPride17 on Dec 28, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually Eric really wanted the 4th year.

by dbaerry34 on Dec 27, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Outside of his contract year, especailly the previous two, Cole was an underacheiver. Ruutu has actually been more consistent as a scorer. Ruutu despite early injury issues, isn’t as much an injury concern as Cole was either. Ruutu is a little more flexible and is passable as a center when needed. And as mentioned, Ruutu is younger. So yes, i’d say he’s worth a little more—especially to this team now (more so because we have no Cole and are already short top six forwards)

To let Ruutu go leads to us being short a top six forward—again, even if we acquire or trade for another…

by Squeaky83 on Dec 28, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Let’s see about Cole:

30 goals, 29 assists in 60 games in a contract year.
29 goals, 32 assists in 71 games in a non-contract year.
22 goals, 29 assists in 73 games in a non-contract year.
18 goals, 24 assists in 80 games with both Edmonton & Carolina in a contract year.
11 goals, 5 assists in 40 games in a non-contract year.
26 goals, 26 assists in 82 games in a contract year.

So he has averaged 24.7 goals, 26.3 assists in 74 games in contract years. He has averaged 20.7 goals, 22 assists in 61 games in non-contract years. He’s got 14 goals, 11 assists in 37 games this season; 0.68PPG in a non-contract year.

Let’s see about Ruutu:

17 goals, 21 assists in 71 games in a non-contract year.
10 goals, 22 assists in 77 games with Chicago & Carolina in a contract year.
26 goals, 28 assists in 79 games in a contract year.
14 goals, 21 assists in 54 games in a non-contract year.
19 goals, 38 assists in 82 games in a non-contract year.

So he has averaged 18 goals, 25 assists in 78 games in contract years. He has averaged 16.6 goals, 26.7 assists in 69 games in non-contract years. He’s got 14 goals, 8 assists in 38 games this season; 0.58PPG in a contract year.

Cole averaged .70PPG in contract years, .69PPG in non-contract years, and .68PPG this season. That’s pretty consistent, so I’m not sure your argument holds much weight. Ruutu though had his best goal scoring season during his last contract year and is on pace to improve that during this contract year. Ruutu has been pretty consistent, so I’m not saying he plays harder during contract years; but because of that, you could use your argument on Ruutu if so inclined.

"We've got to risk implosion. We may explode into the biggest fireball this part of the galaxy has seen, but we've got to take that one in a million chance."
-- Captain Kirk in Star Trek 'The Naked Time'

by PackPride17 on Dec 28, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Overall you’ve got a fiar point. And I agree—good homework. but again, in looking at Cole’s contract, especially given his recent history and his last three years’ prodcution (which I consider more important—-i.e. I do not see Cole returning to the 30 goal scorer he was, especially at his age), he wasn;t worth what Motnreal paid. ANd over the last three years, he and Ruutu were roughly equivalent.

My point being, as mentioned, trading Ruutu puts us down an additional top six forward—something we are already short of. So if we lose Ruutu and acquire a top six forward, we’re in the same boat we are this year—still down one. So, do we go rebuild, sacrifice next year as well by trading Ruu for picks??? Not sure this market would go for that. But if we keep Ruu, with Staal and Skinner, we need one top six acquisition instead of two. We already have a top draft pick likely coming our way, who based on recent years will provide a good top six scoring input, with us having the veteran support to also play better defense. We can be done rebuilding after this summer providing JR gets a good winger and drafts right.

But if we trade Ruutu, we’ll still be short and still needing a rebuild next year….Or we get one high one low 1st round pick, and that second pick is unlikely to make the team or replace Ruu….

Understand your stats, they are correct, but if you only look at the last three years, Cole and Ruutu are equivalent—and we badly miss Cole. Losing Ruu makes the situation worse. Ruu is younger, and we already have him. Yeah, we can probably trade him for Cole back…. But we can look at Cole’s contract as to what is possible for Ruu.

by Squeaky83 on Dec 29, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Just pointing out that Cole is on pace to be a 30 goal scorer again this season (as well as Ruutu). But I do think we agree in this area about trading Ruutu; we cannot just trade him for picks & prospects. That just sets us up for another suckass season next year and probably the year after that (most draft picks take a couple of seasons to benefit the team that drafted them). I am all for resigning Ruutu, but I think it needs to be done now and I think he shouldn’t be signed to a contract below $4.5 million a season. If that can’t be done, then we need to try and trade him for a player that will either fit in our top 6 (maybe a RFA or a player having an underperforming season) or a stay-at-home defenseman that could play in our top 4. If we can’t resign him or trade him for something of value, then we just take what we can get for him.

"We've got to risk implosion. We may explode into the biggest fireball this part of the galaxy has seen, but we've got to take that one in a million chance."
-- Captain Kirk in Star Trek 'The Naked Time'

by PackPride17 on Dec 29, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

OK—right with ya there then.

by Squeaky83 on Dec 29, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree ,also while Rosey has been an offensive threat lately his stock can’t get any higher ,and can only get lower since he will cross the age 30 barrier in march JR needs to trade him while he’s hot ,or risk his stock dropping ,and LaRose fans will just have to look at reality ,as he was a good energy player for the Canes for years ,but the reality is you can’t keep players around like old furniture when his spot can be filled with younger more talented player’s for less money which would go toward signing a top 6 forward and resigning Ruutu in a year with a thin UFA pool.

by hellfish on Dec 27, 2011 2:30 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

LaRose would be a great pickup for a cup-worthy team this season.

LET'S GO CANES -- THE SEASON AIN'T OVER YET!!!

by Capt. Stinky on Dec 27, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

He’d be perfect for Anaheim who need bottom six talent….

by Squeaky83 on Dec 28, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I would keep Ruutu and trade Jokinen at this juncture.

LET'S GO CANES -- THE SEASON AIN'T OVER YET!!!

by Capt. Stinky on Dec 28, 2011 2:59 PM EST reply actions  

I see a lot of talk about people wanting to keep Ruutu & Jussi. If the Canes do that, where is the money going to come from that allows us to add another top 6 forward?

If we let our 4 other UFA’s go (Poni, Gleason, Allen, Spacek); that’s roughly about $10 million. If we resign Ruutu for $5 million (expected salary with the weak UFA market), that will eat up about $1 million in cap space. McBain, Tlusty, & Bowman are RFA’s, so they would be required raises if we kept them (lets say that just $1 million more). A lottery pick is going to be around a $3.75 million cap hit and we would still have to sign or trade for a top 4 shutdown defensemen (assuming that would cost us at a minimum $3 million). So that would account for over $8.5 million of that $10 million. PK is not going to go increase the budget after a year in the “RED”. So where is the money going to come from to improve the team? If we just depend on the prospects to improve the team, we are most likely going to be in the same spot again next season. The only way to improve the team is for someone like Staal, Ruutu, or Jussi to be moved; so their salary comes off the books and is replaced by some other player that is expected to be more productive.

"We've got to risk implosion. We may explode into the biggest fireball this part of the galaxy has seen, but we've got to take that one in a million chance."
-- Captain Kirk in Star Trek 'The Naked Time'

by PackPride17 on Dec 28, 2011 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

not sure how much i buy into everyone saying we could simply rent ruutu out and get him back next year. if he gets a taste of a winning program, why would he come back?

I CAN'T BELIEVE STAAL FINALLY SCORED!!!

by Capt. Stinky on Dec 30, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Love the new avatar Stinky!

Staal & Dalpe; The New Dynamic Duo or The Canes Crusaders!

by PackPride17 on Dec 30, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

And your tag line should be “I can’t believe Staal finally scored!!! and it happened twice!!!”

Staal & Dalpe; The New Dynamic Duo or The Canes Crusaders!

by PackPride17 on Dec 30, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Another priceless post!

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tzu circa 4th Century BC

by hurricanefever on Dec 30, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

PK&JR have to realize it will take $8-10m more in payroll to be competitive in the new division ,and after this year it will take more ‘bling players" to sell those STH that may bail .if they don’t improve the roster ,and by losing more key players like Jussi/Ruutu that would be a hard sell for them to even bring back the STH they have now .if the team makes the playoffs 1 home game will gross $2m just in tickets alone…there’s the profit margin…making the post season!

by hellfish on Dec 30, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

It is not how much JR spends but how wisely he spends it. I am holding him accountable for that first.

As far as playoffs…..it is the classic chicken or the egg problem, which comes first? If you spend money that would be made on playoffs first but don’t make the playoffs, it is considered a high risk decision and you lose money because of it. If you make the playoffs and then spend the playoff money earned the following year then some would say that was a smart business decision. Complicating this is the tiers of playoff money available. If you lose in the first round you still get 3 or 4 games of playoff revenue. However, a deep run can magnify that yield significantly. I keep reminding myself that this is still a for-profit organization and not a non-profit “social services agency for poor suffering Caniacs”.

So far it appears the Canes management has chosen to earn the money first and then make a decision on spending it after it is in the bank. Someone told me a long time ago the Canes have an obligation to entertain me for the money they take from me in return for that entertainment. They have no obligation to financially subsidize that entertainment with a financial loss.

Interestingly, playoff money earned is different than the budget for the year. I think that is where the best decisions can be made for player payroll.

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tzu circa 4th Century BC

by hurricanefever on Dec 31, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

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