Breaking Down The Trades: Are The Carolina Hurricanes Playoff Bound?
by Bob Wage on Mar 1, 2011 8:00 AM EST
in Carolina Hurricanes Analysis
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This was a new trade deadline year, with new objectives for the Carolina Hurricanes. Unlike last season, when they traded away any asset possible who had an expiring contract, this year they tried to immediately improve the team.
Jim Rutherford has high hopes for this squad. The Carolina GM mentioned in his press conference on Monday that he wanted the team to not just slip into eighth place, he wanted them to be battling for the sixth or seventh position in the Eastern Conference.
The Canes were not necessarily overly active during the two week period before the trade deadline, but team officials feel like they upgraded the club with the couple of deals they were able to make. Let's take a closer look:
First, they traded Ian White to San Jose for a second round pick, (2012). Then they acquired Derek Joslin for a conditional pick future considerations.
In their next deal, they sent Ryan Carter, (injured) and a fifth round pick to Florida for Cory Stillman.
Finally, the Canes exchanged Sergei Samsonov for Bryan Allen, also of the Florida Panthers.
The net affect?
In essence Carolina exchanged defensemen -- Allen replaced White -- the former who is a bigger, more physical defenseman, something the team needed.
They also, technically just exchanged Stillman for Samsonov. While Samsonov is more of a puck possession player and puck handler, Stillman might be a better passer and plays more of a style that fits Paul Maurice's system.
Stillman will also screen the goalie and try to tip pucks on the way to the net, something you did not see Samsonov doing very often.
Each of the players was earning about $3 million, (give or take some spare change), so the money turned out to be a wash, (except that Allen has another year on his contract, not necessarily a bad thing for Carolina).
The Canes lost a fifth round draft pick and an injured player who may or may not play again this season.
They gained a second rounder, (2012) and a young restricted free agent defenseman who has looked promising so far in his short stay. Carter will be unrestricted this summer and can always be re-signed.
Something Rutherford was not counting on during the festivities was losing defenseman Brett Carson to waivers. The Canes were forced with making a decision to either keep Carson in Raleigh and have him sit in the press box the rest of the season as the team's number eight defenseman, or try to send him to Charlotte, where he could play and log major ice time while helping the affiliate team to their postseason.
They chose to try to send him to Charlotte.
Instead, the Calgary Flames claimed him. It's good news for the blueliner, he will get NHL money the rest of the season. Also, he will be unrestricted this summer and the Hurricanes could always try to re-acquire him if they want to.
But other than the short term loss of Carson, this looks like a win-win-win for Carolina. Both of the major players acquired bring more of what the team needs than the players they replaced, a second rounder is certainly greater than a fifth rounder, and a restricted free agent defenseman is worth more than a, presently injured, unrestricted free agent fourth liner.
Will the new players be enough to help keep the Canes just above the playoff line, or possibly even move them up in the standings? We will see.
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Excellent Analysis as Always
Bob, great job as always. Jim Rutherford accomplished a great deal with a series of relatively subtle changes in the team’s composition. Jettisoning Samsonov and replacing him with Stillman helps the Hurricanes this season. Stillman over Samsonov is a no-brainer as far as I am concerned. Joslin and Allen both add a degree of rough-edged, physical play that the Hurricanes team desperately needed. The Hurricanes have to turn the area in front of Cam Ward into a true war zone rather than a picnic area. With Gleason, Allen, Joslin, and Harrison, Cam Ward ought to be screened less frequently that he has been thus far this season. I really liked what Carter brought to the team, but by having Samson, the Hurricanes can move Samson up the lines. For the rest of this season, I think LaRose needs to be moved down to the fourth line where he can add energy and kill penalties without being over-slotted.
Importantly, Jim Rutherford was able to accomplish these changes without trading prospects of giving up low round draft picks. The only downside as far as I am concerned is that Carson was lost on waivers. As you point out, perhaps the Hurricanes can re-sign Carson over the off-season. I also had really hoped LaRose would be moved at the deadline. I don’t see how the Hurricanes can afford to re-sign him unless it is for another year at a much reduced price as a hedge against either Dalpe or Boychuk not being fully ready for the NHL next season. I don’t see how LaRose fits into the long-term plan of the Hurricanes, just as I didn’t see how Samsonov would fit into the 2011-2012 Hurricanes team.
It seems to me that the Hurricanes organization has decided it will go with somewhat smallish forwards by adding grit and a mean streak to its blue line. If Cole can continue to play the way he has this season, the need for another big-bodied power forward arguably is less important. On the other hand, Stillman’s tough play in front of the net and the opportunities it creates argues for finding a young power forward who can fill that role. Maybe that player is waiting for the Hurricanes in the 2011 draft. After all, Skinner’s selection and his outstanding performance has been a sea change for the Hurricanes. One more selection like Skinner and the Hurricanes will be a team that rocks the NHL for years to come.
"Jim Rutherford accomplished a great deal"
say what?!?? I’d say he did a little tweaking, I would not say the two defensemen we brought-in are game changers in any way, shape or form
"I’m tired of being a fringe team and needing a lot of things to go right to make the playoffs." - C-Leaguer
There aren’t many “Game-Changing” D men out there and the ones that are come with a price tag of $4 Mil+.
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me; other times I can barely see. Lately it occurs to me: What a long, strange trip it's been." Grateful Dead
"There aren’t many "Game-Changing" D men out there and the ones that are come with a price tag of $4 Mil+."
i believe allen was like $3.5 mill, was he not? we didn’t have the add’l 500k?
"I’m tired of being a fringe team and needing a lot of things to go right to make the playoffs." - C-Leaguer
by Capt. Stinky on Mar 1, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
$3.1 and $3.15 next year. The question with Allen is if he’s game changing.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
gotcha, thanks
"I’m tired of being a fringe team and needing a lot of things to go right to make the playoffs." - C-Leaguer
So a top 4 shutdown D-man that this team desperately needed for an underused/overpaid 4th liner is not a great deal? Personally, I think Allen is a game changer on THIS team for the fact that the constant traffic and havoc in front of Cam was costing this team. His presence may go unnoticed and be underappreciated on some teams, but not this one.
If they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it
I don’t know that he’s a game changer, but I still think it’s a pretty good deal. The team had to take on salary, not unlike the Babchuk – TKO – White deal, but they got a good d-man with giving up only an expiring contract heading in to a season with limited free agents available.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
here’s hoping you’re right
"I’m tired of being a fringe team and needing a lot of things to go right to make the playoffs." - C-Leaguer
by Capt. Stinky on Mar 1, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Really depends on the change your looking for. I for one and sick and tired of seeing teams feel free to do whatever they like in front of the goal. Some things, little things, cant be quantified but have just as much if not more impact in the game than what the score sheet shows.
If they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it
No?
I disagree. Allen, while not a marquee player, should step in immediately to one of our top two pairings and provide a tough, physical presence. That’s a lot more than White could really say he provided in his time here as our #5 D.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
“I think LaRose needs to be moved down to the fourth line where he can add energy and kill penalties without being over-slotted.” -abramsdoug
Can we please for the love of all that is holy get a banner of this printed up and wallpapered to Mo’s office wall, door, house, hell anywhere and ever where he may be looking when he is thinking up the line combos.
LaRose has needed to be on the 4th line for MONTHS now. I like LaRose, I am NOT a LaRose hater, I just HATE they are not utliizing his skillset for what it is best at. Instead they over-slot him on lines so he can drag down those lines.. I just don’t get it.
Check out the depth chart.
If you move LaRose down who do you move up? Not Bodie, certainly. Dwyer and Samson are essentially LaRose with less polish and experience and speed. LaRose is slotted where he is because of the talent level of the team as a whole.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
i have seen samson control the puck better along the boards, i would be fine with him on 3rd line
"I’m tired of being a fringe team and needing a lot of things to go right to make the playoffs." - C-Leaguer
Lines w LaRose on the 4th Line
Stillman/Staal/Cole [unchanged]
Samson/Skinner/Ruutu [remove LaRose add Samson]
Jokinen/Sutter/Tlusty [unchanged]
LaRose/Dwyer/Bodie [LaRose moved from 2nd line to 4th line]
Only two players switch positions in this scenario, Samson and LaRose. Certainly LaRose on the fourth line won’t hurt the performance of the fourth line. Samson would have to work hard to be as ineffective at even strength as LaRose; and Samson has shown he can get shots on net and can possess the puck. LaRose is not working with Skinner and Ruutu; so there isn’t a high standard that Samson has to meet in order to be an improvement.
Said it above, but I’m still unsold on Samson, especailly in the top 9 where I think his defensive liabilities may be exposed.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
Do you prefer LaRose to Samson for a spot above the 4th line?
Do you prefer LaRose to Samson on the same line as Skinner, where the quotient of small players seems high.
by curiouscanesfan on Mar 1, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know C-man
I’m gonna on the fence with this one….I see the merit in giving Samson some additional minutes to see what he can do…..We know what LaRose can do…..Let’s see what the up side of Samson is….He certainly has shown effectiveness in scoring at the AHL level.
Shoot the puck!!!!!!
1) LaRose is a much better defender than Samson.
2) LaRose had better numbers in juniors and relatively similar numbers in the AHL/ECHL as Samson so I’m guessing that LaRose’s production is roughly on par with what Samson could max out. Samson may have some other intangibles, but I’m not guessing many more points.
3) If the goal of this season is now to make the playoffs we can’t afford to be trying out any rookies, and the hiccups/lapses they bring.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
Samson should not be CLOSE to playing second-line minutes.
If you’re playing a AAAA player in your top is, there’s a BIG problem. Rosie isn’t that; he’s shown he can produce at a desperate top-six level (based on his 41-point pace over 82 games last year.)
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
After being busy as the NHL was yesterday...
1. i am glad JR did what he has to help keep the Canes in the playoff picture.
2. if the go higher in the standings,it’s up to the Canes…
3. was sorta shocked that the flames openly snuck in and took Carson..so that means the Checkers will have to make some slighjt changes and hopefully the rest of the team will continue to pull together and like the canes keep fighting and scraping for each point in the playoff picture…
4. the next 19 games will determin the Canes fate…as it is and has been in thioer hands since the ASG break…
5. i still think and say even if #25 picks up 25 goals…we need to dump him…too sporaticneed better consistancy..and hopewfully the likes of Allen,Harrison,Mcbain can and will fill in that gap as Corvo & Gleason can only do just so much…
as fans,are we expecting too much ??
i had hoped JR would have done more, imho
"I’m tired of being a fringe team and needing a lot of things to go right to make the playoffs." - C-Leaguer
Just out of curiosity...
What were you looking for?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Other than moving Pitkanen, which I think would have sent the message to both the players and fans that this organization is not serious about making the playoffs this year let alone a deep run, or top prospects and picks, which would derail the rebuilding effort, what would you have done?
by Chuck Burns on Mar 1, 2011 11:04 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Other than moving Pitkanen, which I think would have sent the message to both the players and fans that this organization is not serious about making the playoffs
I do not see it that way. JR moved out Stillman and Commodore, two guys who helped win the cup and two big pieces, for Corvo and Eaves in 08-09. That move was to help the future but it was also to shake things up and make a serious run at the playoffs, something they would have accomplished had the team not sh!t the bed the last four games of the season. If he moved out Joni for simply picks and pitiful ones at that it would have sent a negative message. We’re talking about a GM who moved out an expiring contract from a guy on the fourth line for a veteran D-man signed through next year. He’s sharp and can negotiate well in trades.
I still think it would have been possible to move out Joni for a package that included an NHL defensemen similar to the Corvo for Pothier-Osala-2nd trade made last year. Vancouver and Chicago both acquired defensemen yesterday. Vancouver went more the rental route, so perhaps the possibility was there. Given the prices paid yesterday it would appear as if there were more buyers than sellers, so it’s unknown what team that didn’t make a move may have had interest in Joni.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
I think you and I just have different ideas of what Pitkanen’s value is to this team.
by Chuck Burns on Mar 1, 2011 8:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i would've fired maurice a ton of games ago
and moved players well before the trade deadline instead of standing pat and hoping for the best. as i’d stated before, we are likely not as bad as we were before these moves, but not vastly improved, either. proof will be in the pudding in the coming 4-5 games. of note, i see joslin may already be a scratch, so there’s that….
"I’m tired of being a fringe team and needing a lot of things to go right to make the playoffs." - C-Leaguer
by Capt. Stinky on Mar 1, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
?
What players would you have moved and what do you believe you would have gotten in return…..Chances are the players you would have moved (Pits, Rosie, Cole, etc) would not have netted enough to make the ’Canes competitive this year. Then who would get the blame for tanking…the new coach or new GM?
Shoot the puck!!!!!!
we wouldn’t be tanking = i wouldn’t be complaining. but i guess we’ll never know, will just have to cheer on the team as-is for the rest of this year
"I’m tired of being a fringe team and needing a lot of things to go right to make the playoffs." - C-Leaguer
And once again you neglected to say who you would have traded and for whom. It is easy to complain as you always do but much harder to come up with concrete changes that might be an actual, possible trade and then have to defend your trade(s) against others who will certainly pick them apart the way you do to anything that you don’t like or agree with.
by Chuck Burns on Mar 1, 2011 8:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Thanks for this Bob. I think your presentation of the choices made regarding Carson is spot on. I’ve heard a couple various opinions on whether he’s an UFA or RFA at the end of the season – seems like that’s pertinent, but like waivers, it’s complicated, especially in his case since he was signed as a UFA in July.
Also, I’d like to point out the Canes picked up a Cory and a Bri/yan, but no Bob nor a Hockeymom. Should we read anything into this? Just asking.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 8:41 AM EST reply actions
I have seen Carson listed as an upcoing RFA.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
I’ve seen it that way at capgeek – but wasn’t sure how accurate it was.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Rotoworld lists the same thing.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
I suppose I could be wrong; but I thought after Carson was not given a qualifying offer as an RFA, he became a UFA. I thought I read that once an UFA always a UFA.
I think you are right about this Doug.
it always burns within
the downward spiral never ends
when driven into sin
your salvation's found in a sinner's deed
by Douchebag St John on Mar 1, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
That would be interesting.
I know it is not directly related, but a baseball player who is not tendered an arbitration offer (essentially the same as an RFA tender) in a given year can still be arbitration-eligible (restricted) in future years if their next team chooses to give them an offer.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
We’ve explored this before on the blog and thought he was an UFA. But then we didn’t know if both these other sites (capgeek and rotoworld) were confused about the absence of the Qualifying offer.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
That was the conclusion we reached, that the sites (who all do show him as being RFA) had it wrong, due to the subtlety of the CBA on this issue.
But, bottom line, JR wouldn’t be talking so casually about “we can always reacquire him this summer” if he didn’t know that he is the one that caused him to be UFA due to not extending that Qualifying Offer.
Here we are now...entertain us.
The Carson thing sucks at loud, but is a “watcha gonna do” moment. I think JR was trying to get him to Charlotte so they could utilize him there. If he thought he was going to lose him, I am sure he would have kept him and scratched him until he was needed for injury/illness for the duration of the season.
In terms of what JR did or didn’t do, I think I spelled out my feelings in the open trade day post. I really am worried that they even with the anew dditions, might not even be a playoff team. Never mind how long we would stick around if we did make the playoffs.
I think if we make the playoffs, I will just call it all a wash, unless we get hot and go into the second round, then its is a success. If we end up in position #9 or #10, though, I think we have to look at yesterday as a squandered opportunity to get a return on expiring contracts.
agreed, what was done or what wasn’t done was kind of typical for JR. The list of players that would have filled our needs was very short: Penner, Hemsky, JMLiles, Richards, and that’s probably it. Based on what Penner cost LA, it’s probably best JR did nothing. As they say: “some the best deals are the ones you don’t do”. Stiller makes a ton of sense, he couldn’t be happier to be back and there’s zero transition with him. With Allen, good team guy, a lot of size, not very mobile, and too expensive for a 5/6 guy, but he should do well in the 5/6 slot and he eliminates the Samsonov problem, so again it makes sense. We know what we are getting with these 2 players because of their history, I don’t know how many other teams that made moves can say the same. A lot of inconsistent players moved around yesterday.
by Go_Shelf on Mar 1, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Huh – I was thinking he was top 4, not a 5/6. Figured he would get some time with Joni allowing McBain to work w/Harrison.
Maybe a bad assumption on my part, but his salary and resume (and size and experience) suggested to me he was better than that.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
Paul Branecky Defensive Pairings
http://hurricanes.nhl.com/club/depthchart.htm?dcid=12
Paul Branecky has Allen paired with Pitkanen. When asked about the pairings, Jim Rutherford said it gave the coaches options. I assume that Allen will play as the #4 dman given the fact White was traded in part because he was down to a #5/#6 pairing.
which is probably where Allen belongs 4-6. They’ll probably play him in the 4 slot to start. Allen’s going to have to play well, minus his fights this season (3) he’s taken 24 minor penalties, the majority of which I’m guessing are obstruction penalties (hooking, holding, interference). Because of his foot speed he struggles against quicker forwards, which is what most top lines are – quicker. I’m optimistic for him, but this is a guy who’s never lived up to expectations. If he struggles don’t be surprised to see him stratched.
e’s taken 24 minor penalties, the majority of which I’m guessing are obstruction penalties (hooking, holding, interference).
but this is a guy who’s never lived up to expectations
Important to remember. A lot of folks here admitted to not knowing much about Allen yesterday and are probably commenting based on stats found on his player card. Again, I am not saying he is not an upgrade in a lot of ways, I just want folks to mitigate their expectations accordingly.
That’s about the same number of minor penalties that Pitkanen has – also mostly obstruction. So more of the same.
I also wonder how coming to playoff-hopeful team for the first time before the lockout will affect his play. Maybe he’ll find another gear? That seemed to be a whole new dimension for him in the interview from CanesNow last night.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
Trudat. And Pitkanen gets a lot of grief for untimely penalties.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Not JUST a stats thing.
One of the knocks on Allen is he can take silly penalties from time to time by being unfocused or undisciplined.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been watching him since his days in Vancouver, so I haven’t based my opinion on his stats and what I’ve heard. Vancouver thought they were getting a Pronger type player with a little less offensive, he’s never lived up to that billing. The biggest complaint about him (not just me) is he has a history of taking untimely penalties and bad turnovers. Now, I’m hoping the change of scenery does him well and am optimistic he can be a reliable shut-down guy. Most of his career he’s played on losing teams, so I have to imagine he’ll make the most of it, we’ll see.
line ups from practice.
From practice, Allen matched with Harrison, McBain w/Pitkanen. So #5. Looks like Joslin is the scratch tonight.
Also – Skinner back to center w/Ruutu and LaRose. Samson on the 4th line.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
The Lines
As a young child, somebody must have drilled into Maurice’s subconscious memory: “If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again.” My guess is the lines are somewhat fluid. I’d much rather see Samson/Skinner/Ruutu or Skinner/Ruutu/Samson. Tlusty would be a candidate but the Sutter line has been on fire, so why mess with their chemistry. It’s inevitable that LaRose winds up on the fourth line, just as it was inevitable Samsonov would be traded or waived. Maurice does get points for sticking with his veteran players and giving them every opportunity in the world to succeed. Long after it seems painfully obvious that a player is overslotted, he’ll keep with it. I imagine from the standpoint of other players who relate to their teammates, it must be comforting to know once you gain Maurice’s trust, he’s going to give you every benefit of the doubt. From my perspective, it’s like watching the movie Groundhog Day.
Can Samson play RW? I was hoping so but wasn’t sure it’s ever been tried. Or would Ruu prefer to move to the RW (I think I read that’s his preference).
I think while LaRose is pressing so hard, he needs to be backed down a bunch and work through a much simpler set of expectations. Really going through a rough streak – his plus / minus is down to -18. I realize that’s an overused stat, but for an overall trend, that’s not good.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
wing to wing should matter very little: taking passes on forehand vs backhand and driving down the ice on offwing vs onwing. Big difference is going from wing to center, at this level it shouldn’t matter what wing you play on.
Samson as a Right Wing
I am fairly confident Samson began his career with the Rats as a right wing. I think he played right wing at times with the Rats and the Checkers. Paul Branecky has Ruutu as the right wing; and having a line of Samson/Skinner/Ruutu has players in positions they are used to playing.
Can’t move LaRose to the 4th line. That would leave Skinner without a bodyguard.
by curiouscanesfan on Mar 1, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
“Also – Skinner back to center w/Ruutu and LaRose. Samson on the 4th line”
{Loud disappointed SIGH}
Why oh why most this failed experiment of LaRose on Skinner and Ruu’s line continue.
LaRose skill wise is IDEAL for our 4th line. I think Samson would be an improvement on Ruu and Skinners line over Rosie by far. Yet we will apprently never know because Mo seems determined to stick with what clearly has not been working on that line, over and over…
Samson is LaRose without the speed and experience. He’s not going to fix what ails that line and probably make more gaffes and be less defensively responsible than LaRose.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
by C-Leaguer on Mar 1, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Don’t agree … Samson wins battles in the corners and is a great cycler. But LaRose is much, much better defensively.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
And I know, I know, plus minus not an ideal stat blah blah…
but LaRose seems to excel on D in a pressure role. Keeping the other team pinned in there own zone. I think that skill set works much better with our 4th than 3rd line. If while doing that pressure he also had the hockey sense and hands to get the puck and get accurate passes to his linemates then he would be great where he is at, but that just has not been working out now has it?
LaRose is killing penalties at the NHL level and has been for years. Samson isn’t. The -18 is more a statement of the difficulties LaRose and the lines he’s been on have had scoring, particularly when he was overslotted on the top line.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
Would Samson's be any better in the same situations?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
LaRose as a Great Defender This Season is Pure Myth
This season LaRose is not a great defender on top three lines. This season he is minus 18. Last season he was minus 2. To say he’s a better defender than Samson is just not true based on anything we’ve seen. Samson thus far is plus 2, even if it is a small sample.
How will we truly know that until it is tried, and I agree it is not the ideal long term solution, but are you really going to say LaRose is the defensive solution for that line.. plus minus -18 LaRose…worst on the team?!?
I agree with doug in that I think a ideal fit would be Tlusty, but his chemistry in the Sutter line is something I do not want them tinkering with at this time either.
The one advantage I see to Samson over LaRose, is Samson really appears much better at winning puck battles along the board. He also has appeared to have good eyes on once he wins that battle how to quickly center the puck across the crease. None of the things I have seen LaRose able to do on that line for whatever reason.
plus minus -18 LaRose
More to do with him being overslotted on the first line early this year than anything else. Brindy was 30 at one point last year while on the top 6, but ended up somewhere like -17 when he was demoted to the third line. If you’re being overslotted the +/ will reflect that.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
I don’t agree either. Samson is fast enough. And where do you get this “experience” ? Not playing 6 minutes on the fourth line.
We know what LaRose can(and can’t) do.
It’s time to give Samson more minutes.
by drifterscape on Mar 1, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Then why not just rotate in the entire Charlotte roster for a few games a year?
If giving them experience is reason enough…
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Huh ?
Because Samson has shown that he’s good enough to get the extra minutes. Whereas the entire Charlotte roster ,which you advocate, has not.
Samson has only showed he’s good enough to play on the fourth line. That’s it. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. He’s been able to steal about 6 to 8 minutes a game. He’s not winning the Calder or making a run at the Richard trophy. He’s effective in the role he’s playing but let’s not expand beyond our sample set.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
by C-Leaguer on Mar 1, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
This.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
By the same token...
We may view a third pairing with Allen as one we can use in any situation, rather than needing to protect it like a Carson/Joslin & Harrison line.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Hopefully just letting Allen get a feel for his surroundings. Otherwise, not sure why you would pair two shutdown guys together going against teh other teams bottom forwards…especially the way McBains been playing.
If they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it
You can see his penalty breakdown here.
For those who just want to know:
Tripping 3
Roughing 1
Instigator 1
Holding 2
Kneeing 1
Hooking 3
Delaying Game-Puck over glass 1
Interference 3
Cross checking 3
Holding the stick 1
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Nice find, never really looked at splits. So if you compare him to Pronger, who’s taken 21 penalties, the nature of the penalties are different. It looks like 13 of Allen’s 19 are because he got beat 1 on1: hooks, trips, knee’s, interference, holds, holding the stick; whereas 14 of Pronger’s 21 are aggressive penalties: roughs, slashes, hi-sticks, boards, and cross-checks. Do that mean Allen is slow and gets beat a lot 1 on 1 or he simply matches up against the other teams top forwards who draw penalties against everyone. We’ll see.
Yeah I see that. Think the old Doig on K Adams play. He was blowing by just wide of the punk and Doig extends the knee and stops the play.
Okay, I can see that. I was thinking it was more of a dirty penalty speaking more to character than positioning/speed, but I can see what you’re saying there.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
yep, typically sticking out your knee is a knee jerk (sorry for the pun) reaction to getting beat.
by Go_Shelf on Mar 1, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dunno that we should compare Allen to Pronger.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Still and so...
We picked up a #2 and a decent enough (if low-upside) prospect for an expiring defenseman we were unlikely to resign and we got a top-four veteran defenseman at a reasonable rate for next year by selling an expiring fourth-liner we were very unlikely to resign.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
we got a top-four veteran defenseman at a reasonable rate for next year
I don’t agree here, but I guess it comes down to being subjective. I think he may be a top 4 guy, but only barely, and I think he is overpriced for what he brings to us, next year.
There’ve been a lot of times this season where we see smaller Canes’ defensemen like McBain and White getting overpowered. White always seemed to be in the right place but that didn’t necessarily mean he could keep a big forward out of the crease.
I can see how White might grade out higher on hockey IQ and positioning and all that, but the Canes’ desperately needed to get bigger on D. When you get a guy with Allen’s size and grit who plays as smart and solid a game as White, he’s an all-star with a salary beyond the Canes’ dreams. It’s probably true that Allen doesn’t represent an upgrade in quality over White, but he is a different type of defensemen who is almost certainly a better match with current Canes’ needs (in my opinion). When Allen is out there, a lot of players will think twice about crashing the Canes’ net. Allen has to help Cam Ward in that respect.
by curiouscanesfan on Mar 1, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Rutherford’s net result over the deadline and lead-up days is adding 2 physical defensemen, and 2 forwards ( Stillman and Samson by subtraction). Teams put 18 skaters on the bench every night and we now have 4 players we didn’t have before, all upgrades over the players they replaced in the line up. I’ll take Joslin over White and Allen over Carson, as well as Samson over Samsonov and Stillman over Carter. The fallout could be having a player like Pitkinen walk July 1st with no return. The other UFA’s that may not be in the future plans (LaRose and Dwyer) likely didn’t or wouldn’t have fetched much in the way of a draft pick.
While not a ringing day at the office, the moves JR made could indeed be subtle but very effective. And the future stays intact.
by Hockeydog on Mar 1, 2011 9:32 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think your comparisons are probably better as Samson for Carter, Stiller for Samsonov, Joslin for Carson, and Allen for White. While the actual chronology of acquisition fits what you said, I think this actually speaks to where these folks are “slotting.”
Is it an upgrade, I would say yes with Stillman. He fills a need we have on the PP and at even strength (like to hang out by the crease) that Sergei couldn’t fill. For Samson, I withhold judgment. Carter was effective in his role, but he was not utilized. The same can be said of the whole fourth line. The same will most likely be said about Samson and the rest of the 4th line going forward as well. I’m not a die hard Mo Must Go’er, but his use of the 4th line and the backup ’tender are my biggest gripes with him ( but that is a topic for a different post).
In terms of Upgrade on the D, I do think they both are. Joslin for Carson is a definitive edge in terms of snarl and puck movement over Carson. That said, I think it is probably a push, at best, on the Defensive side of the puck. Allen for White is a nice upgrade in terms of physicality and size. I do wonder though if it isn’t a loss in term of hockey IQ though. White quietly did his job and was a very respectable +4 ( I think) over his tenure with the Canes. This on our blue line speaks to good positioning and smart decision with the puck. Also, Allen is known to take ill times penalties. In terms of offensive contributions, you are talking about a wash as well. So is the D better today than it was on Sunday? Yes. Is it better than before the White for a 2nd trade? Maybe, but I am not convinced it is any more than marginally so.
Big DMen w Smallish Forwards
As I see the progression, the Hurricanes organization is going to stick with its over all plan to be fast, even if smallish, at forward. To do so, the Hurricanes needed to add bigger, more aggressive, dmen who can clear the crease and who will fight when that is needed. It’s much easier to run a team that lacks some size at forward if the dmen can handle the larger forwards and can prevent other teams from taking liberties with the forwards. I see that change as a very conscious decision rather than happenstance.
Joslin for a conditional pick?
When was that announced?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
Listed above:
Then they acquired Derek Joslin for a conditional pick.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
I thought it was future considerations.(and it was never clear to me if that was resolved with the Ian White trade announced an hour later)
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
I thought the future considerations in the Joslin trade were rolled up somehow in the White trade. Not so? Do the Canes owe more to the Sharks?
by curiouscanesfan on Mar 1, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
It’ll usually just be a “remember when we did this trade” thing.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
They never technically "owed" anything.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, that's what I recall.
And there does not technically need to be a “resolution.” It’s just really a hat tip for the future, i.e. if you’re making an offer, be sure not to forget that team.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent analysis
Thanks for summing up so neatly. For the Canes’ needs:
Stillman > Samsonov
Allen > White
2nd rd pick > 5th rd pick
Joslin > Carter
I hadn’t seen it that clearly before your post, Bob. One benefit of Allen’s being under contract for next season is that the cost of keeping him for 2011-2012, unlike the cost of keeping Pitkanen, is known. Having Allen, Gleason, Corvo and McBain under contract surely increases JR’s leverage in dealing with other free agent Dmen, whether on the current roster or not. Since JR can probably fill out the D corps with his choice of Harrison, Sanguinetti and Joslin, it looks as though he can choose to have 3 stay at home types and 3 mobile guys. JR won’t have to do anything to shore up the D unless he sees a real upgrade at fair value. (You would think it’s next year or never for Sanguinetti—he’ll either make the Canes’ roster or be on his way after another year in Charlotte.)
I’m sorry to see Carson go but don’t think he had a place on the Canes. Harrison and Joslin seem to fill current needs better and Sanguinetti has more upside. Joslin may have more upside as well.
In 2012-13, the Canes will likely add Dumoulin, Faulk and perhaps a 1st round Dman from the 2011 draft—Hamilton, Siemens, Musil or whoever. As for system depth in D prospects, they’re thin in Charlotte now, but there is Michal Jordan; Alt, Levy and Rissannen will be coming along soon; and that the 2011 and 2012 drafts will probably bring in about 4 more D prospects. The point of all this is to say that although Carson’s departure seems to leave a void in the prospect pool, the Canes will fill it fast.
by curiouscanesfan on Mar 1, 2011 10:09 AM EST reply actions
Danny Biega is making a big splash at Harvard lately (College player of the week honors etc) . Not sure how that translates to the NHL, but it sounds like he’s got a lot going for him in terms of attitude/discipline/maturity to become a real pro. Time will tell.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Great point. I should have mentioned Biega. It’s hard to believe that a guy who trains as hard as he does won’t compete for a spot sooner rather than later.
by curiouscanesfan on Mar 1, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Don’t think those guys will be ready for the NHL that soon, and JR is always reluctant to draft a D in the first round. Don’t be surprised if Brett Bellemore eventually makes it up to the NHL.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
When do you think Dumoulin and Faulk might be NHL-ready?
by curiouscanesfan on Mar 1, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Not in a season and a half. Biega’s not even 19 yet, Dumoulin just 19. I highly doubt either will be ready by 21. McBain was a great college player and he’s just in his first full season and just turned 23.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
His family is entrenched at Harvard. I see no way he would leave college to go to the CHL.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Why? IMO, the college route is often the better way to go for defenders. You get to leave them there longer without paying them (or using up their entry-level contract) and you have more time to bulk up as a collegiate player than in juniors.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
because you have to wait longer to get them in your lineup producing, Time Value of Money. Everything I’ve read about him suggests he’s going to be an NHL’er. Why wait. And for him, how much money is he leaving on the table, salary x 1 to 2 years, that’s a lot of money. Harvard’s a great school, but none of their undergrad degrees entry level salary is $750K.
Because you risk losing him sooner or paying him more sooner. Defensemen are generally not ready at 20 or 21 anyway. Why force them in? I find that collegiate-taught d-men are more prepared and can are more balanced players a lot of the time. Rushing in defensemen ruins them.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
If he’s got holes in his game it makes sense, college is a good place to develop those things, but if he has NHL pedigree why wait. The length of an NHL career is so short why waste competitive hockey playing years in college. If college was a better place to prepare for the NHL wouldn’t you expect the leader boards to be filled college players? It’s not, it’s filled with CHL players.
Being picky, but Biega actually is 19 – his birthday is 9/29/91, which seems to be as early as it can be in the 2010 draft year – so he’s just a couple weeks younger than Dumoulin (DOB 9/6/91) who was at the other extreme in the 2009 draft. They are both sophomores.
No mention of Justin Faulk (DOB 3/20/92) in this. FWIW, a member of USA Hockey’s media group who was blogging during the WJC’s this year believes Faulk is the only 1992 Dman from Team USA’s WJC U-20 team ready to turn pro next year. I told him Rutherford didn’t rush, and he got that, but his point was that Faulk was the only 1992 Bday from that group who is even close to ready, whether it happens or not.
In the same vein – Casey Borer? Thoughts?
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Bellemore
I think the message is out to the Checkers about getting more physically engaged. Bellemore is a big, strong man. He is starting to drop the gloves. He’s going to be the beneficiary of Carson being taken on waivers. His skating continues to improve; and he is fearless (which is not at all suggesting Carson was not also fearless – to be clear).
Great job by JR
JR is trying to walk the line between rebuilding and adding enough pieces to make the playoffs and I think he did that brilliantly (though it sucks we lost Carson). JR addressed two of the biggest holes on the team – toughness/grit and needing a stay-at-home defenseman – without losing any of our major prospects and even added a 2nd round pick.
With the added pieces, our current place in the standings, and home-heavy schedule for the remainder of the season, I like our chances of hanging on to a playoff spot if not move up a spot or two. This is a crucial year for the Canes to make a good playoff run to help the bottom line since they are trying to attract investors. Once the new investment team is announced, PK will hopefully open up the checkbook a bit and we can keep some of our essential players with expiring contracts like Jokinen and maybe even Cole (I’ll let you guys debate the merits of trying to keep Pitkanen around).
And that's another Hurricane's goal! WOOOOOOOO!
by jskinner23 on Mar 1, 2011 10:11 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
i made a similar post on another thread
the playoffs this year are a means to an end.
the moves yesterday were a subtle, hopefully effective nudge in that direction.
the defense will be the focus of drafting and prospect development next year and the year after.
things are moving in the right direction.
Cole
Unless his season takes a drastic turn in the opposite direction I think he will and should be resigned. At this point in his career he reminds me of Glenn Wesley. Glenn wanted to stay in the area and wasn’t about getting every last cent he could from a contract, and JR treated him fair regarding contract offers. I don’t see too much friction between Cole’s camp and JR.
Not sure I have a really good read on Jussi, but I think he’d be similar. He’s really found a home on this team after a couple of prior stops, and JR loves his versatility.
Good moves
Obviously, he wasn’t going to go out and sign Penner. Does it improve the team? Yes. How much? To be determined.
That said, if this power play doesn’t get in gear, this team won’t make the playoffs. If specialty teams were just a wash for this team, they’d already be in 6th. And most people who were in charge of something as poorly performing as the Canes PP wouldn’t have a job.
Great Analysis Bob!
Also, enjoyed the coverage yesterday.
I think JR did a great job in the past 2 weeks. The changes he were made were subtle, but will really help in front of the net on both ends of the ice. Nice to see Stillman screening the goalie last game, something we haven’t seen enough of in the past and Allen will help Ward see more pucks.
Stillman compliments Staal and Cole and Allen gives the Canes the size and grit they were lacking on the back end.
I’m looking forward to the last few weeks and if we make the playoffs anything is possible! I believe we will.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take-Gretzky
Mission accomplished
Problem #1a and #1b: The single biggest problem (Problem #1a) for this team going into the deadline was what to do about Pitkanen?
And that’s not just whether or not to keep him, but more about who in the heck to pair with him? We’ve tried everyone, and he’s driven them all crazy, including the looks Joslin was giving him when the latest “let’s try the new guy” approach was taken.
What has been needed all along, if you accept that Joni is just going to be Joni, has been a shut down defenseman that has a “I don’t need no stinking partner” attitude, especially in front of the net. Because that glaring problem (Problem #1b) has been haunting us all season.
We’ve good defenders on the fly, channeling attackers to the walls, but when the skating action stops and trench warfare begins, we just don’t have the personnel (other than Gleason, who is a light version of this player type…especially this season) to accomplish the mission.
So, exchanging White’s slot for Allen fixes both Problem 1a and Problem 1b. Big, nasty (should have heard Kevin Weekes and Jeremy Roenick (NHL on the Fly) exchanging shakes of the head and looks when describing the pain this guy administers in the crease) with a lot of body mass and vicious stickwork.
Mission accomplished…and for next season, as well, because this Problem #1b is not going away, regardless of what we decide about making Problem #1a moot by not re-upping.
Problem #2: Who the heck to put on Staal’s left?
We’d solved the right side, with the resurgence of Cole’s career, at least for this season, with credible stopgaps (Jokinen/Ruutu) should he go down to injury. But, after multiple auditions, no one had caught on to the left side.
There’s always next season to take another swing at that, but for the remainder of this one, Stillman was exactly what the doctor ordered, and I had called that addition more than a week in advance. Mission accomplished.
Problem #3: What to do about the overcrowded left side, with the emergence of Samson as a 3rd/4th line LW asset?
Not only did exchanging Samsonov’s salary open up the addition of Stillman (or Allen, take your pick), but it also freed up that logjam and subtly allowed a tweak to the bottom six that better adjusted the talent with which we had to work. Dwyer moves to the center position on the fourth and the coaches now have a lot of options as to how to deploy Chad among the top nine, which is really what he’s being paid to do.
Mission accomplished.
Summary: Could we have done more? Sure, but JR chose locker room stability for one thing, making only surgical cuts of the walking dead, and frankly the prospects just didn’t pan out for this season. If Dalpe, or Boychuk, had suddenly bloomed (which would have frankly been unexpected, at least to me), then it would have opened up some options for a consideration of trading Cole and/or say Jokinen, reacquiring them this summer, if desired, since they’re both UFA’s anyway.
But, I’d say JR did just fine for the three (four) problems he faced. And even upgraded a fifth-rounder to a second-rounder in the process, where you might actually find something. :-)
Here we are now...entertain us.
by Elsker on Mar 1, 2011 10:55 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
2nd rounder in this draft may be like a 5th rounder in other drafts. This coming years crop looks pretty thin, unfortunately.
Satan is just a coping mechanism for monotheists.
The 2nd rounder is next year – so it seems Rutherford had that covered too.
Twitter @HMof2
by Carolyn Christians on Mar 1, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
And I wouldn’t say it’s like a fifth.
by Cory Lavalette on Mar 1, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
So thank goodness we traded away our ACTUAL #5. That player might just have NEGATIVE value!
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
I know this is a bit off topic but...
…the Sabres (2pts behind us) and Rangers (3pts ahead of us) play each other tonight. Who are you guys cheering for?
I’ll be cheering for two NYR in regulation (the game going OT would be the worst-case scenario) for two reasons: (1) the Sabres scare me more going forward than the Rangers and (2) I could never bring myself to cheer for the Sabres. Period.
And that's another Hurricane's goal! WOOOOOOOO!
Who are you guys cheering for
I think the Rags because if the Sabres win they are tied with us and have the tiebreaker, right?
Asking me to choose between NYR’s and Buffalo is like asking me who I like better Iran or the Taliban ?
But in this case I’m pulling for NYR’s. I just don’t want Buffalo fans to be able to smile.
The ATL/MON winner doesn't matter as much as hoping the game just doesn't go into OT, though.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
The math says Rangers in regulation.
To make the playoffs, it doesn’t matter to us whether NYR goes undefeated the rest of the way. However, Buffalo can take the playoff spot we have.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Few observations
What no one seems to be mentioning is how little teams around the Canes. Montreal I don’t think made a move nor did the Rangers. Buffalo picked up only Brad Boyes, which we’ll see if that’s enough. Atlanta didn’t do enough to cure what ails them. Florida officially gave up and New Jersey gave up Arnott which is going to make getting to 92 points that much more impossible for them. At the very least the teams above the Canes did nothing to cement their positions so the door remains open. That is perhaps the best thing that happened for Carolina yesterday.
I still have concerns about not trading Joni. When asked who won the trade deadline onTradeCentre Pierre McGuire (at least I think it was McGuire) replied that the sellers won. The prices were high and those selling were able to get good deals. He further went on to question why no fringe team didn’t sell off a few pieces and still try to make a run at the playoffs. I can’t help but think the Canes fit this mold. With the Rangers, Habs, Sabres, and Thrashers doing so little and the way the team played with Joni out of the lineup I can’t help but think the team still could have made a good run at the playoffs and traded Joni.
Edmonton received a lot of praise yesterday for staying on track for competing for the cup in 2016. I can’t help but think that moving out Joni would have given the Canes a good shot at the playoffs this year and a better ability to compete for the cup in 2015.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
- Rangers picked up McCabe to try to help their PP and a Maple Leafs minor league C.
- Montreal made a minor league deal with ATL (not really worth mentioning)
And that's another Hurricane's goal! WOOOOOOOO!
Pitkanen as our "rental"
I had to jump into the Wayback Machine in order to track down the proper person with which to credit this thought, but it was Caniac233 that first said (2/25) “Pitkanen can be viewed as the rental needed to make a playoff push”.
I commented then that this was an interesting perspective, and if nothing else, would help define the point of economic indifference as to whether to replace Joni or not.
Based on what we were seeing demanded for puck-moving defensemen, JR might indeed have deemed the price too high (1st/2nd round picks and note-worthy prospects) to replace him, and decided that the lost opportunity of whatever he might have gained by trading Joni was the “price” he would pay to keep the known talent in place for that need.
Can always make the decision as to whether or not to re-up with the “rental” in the off-season, same as any other UFA asset similarly acquired.
Here we are now...entertain us.
Pitkanen can be viewed as the rental needed to make a playoff push
I think that’s a flawed way to look at one of the few assets the team had prior to starting to rebuild that could actually bring back good returns. The three pieces that could be moved for good return were Whitney, Cole, and Joni. Cole I think played himself back to a point of staying on the team. Whitney wasn’t moved (not through lack of trying). Now Joni hasn’t been moved.
If the goal of the rebuild was to be competitive in 2014-25 than not moving either player does nothing to help that and I would say hinders. JR doesn’t like to draft defensemen early. He prefers to acquire via trade. The two pieces that could have been used to acquire defensemen have now not been used to do that. That means the Canes are left to drafting, trading prospects or Ruutu, or signing reclamation projects to get the defense up and ready. Perhaps we’re now okay for next year with Allen, Gleason, and Corvo signed. But what after that? Joslin, McBain, Sanguinetti, Biega, Faulk, Doumolin? That’s a defensive corp that’s going to have a lot of troubles. Maybe if there’s a Tuebert in there and a good chance of keeping Gleason then we’re talking Gleason, Tuebert, McBain, Sanguinetti/Joslin and a couple of fill ins. That’s at least passable and gives the Faulks, Doumolins of the world time to develop.
The defense to the Hurricanes is the social security to the federal budget. It’s a long term issue that needs immediate attention and the quicker attention is given to it the less pain it will be to address. The longer it’s put off the worse it will be to address and the larger cost.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
When the team played itself into playoff position, I believe the goal became two-fold for JR.
Yes, we’re rebuilding, and JR did a good job of opening up a roster spot for a prospect…just happened to be a surprise candidate (Samson). The rest frankly are just not ready and will be better served playing all the critical minutes they will in the AHL (top penalty kill and power play pairings, last minute of games, etc.) than minor roles in the NHL for the remainder of the season. Then, too, there’s always the looming statistical chance of injury duty for them in the NHL before this is all over.
However, it’s also a financially important goal of the org to reach the playoffs this season, not only for game revenue, but also walk-up sales during the playoff push and season ticket sales for next season.
Plus, JR owes the room the reward. It’s good for the org culture to do so. Building the winning tradition. :-)
Here we are now...entertain us.
It’s good for the org culture to do so. Building the winning tradition. :-)
I don’t deny that at all. I’m hoping that the moves he makes at the very least provide long lasting impacts in that JR is willing to bet on his team. Playing on a losing hockey team is an awful thing. Once you get used to losing you’re almost a ruined player (Olli Jokinen, Stephen Weiss, most every other player Florida has drafted).
But I still think JR could have bet on this team and improved the future. He’s done just that in the Stillman and Commodore for Eaves and Corvo trade and last year in the Corvo for Osala-Pothier-Second round pick trade. All the good he did betting on this season could be undone next season and definitely the following season if nothing is done on defense.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
Earlier in the season, I was advocating (and predicting) these very same lateral substitutions, arguing that we could insert either (or both) of Dalpe/Boychuk and not miss a beat in our pursuit of a playoff spot.
But, not only did the step upward not occur in those two assets this season (which is fine), but also Cole took on a much more important role than where I had him slotted. Plus, hard to argue the loss of Jokinen wouldn’t be felt and that his production would not be replaced by either of the prospects (or both, for that matter :-D).
And, then, there is the question of just how do those minutes for the top pair get distributed, with again McBain’s understandable rough patches during his first pro year tempering expectations for him to be a heavy-duty top 4 defenseman this season. Might cost what Joni would bring to replace him, so go with the known devil, I suppose.
So…adjustments made on the fly. Besides, we’ll have problems enough shoehorning the rising talent into future lineups. JR can always trade the excess talent then for more picks to keep ’em coming.
Here we are now...entertain us.
And the White for Joslin-Second trade?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Good point about increased regular-season attendance by staying competitive.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
I would argue...
That a solid prospect defenseman and a #2 would constitute a “good return.” That’s what we got for White, and then we replaced him (both for this year and next) using only an expiring fourth-liner who wasn’t much cheaper. Seems like a good series of moves to me.
P.S.: What exactly makes Teubert a more capable player than Joslin or McBain? He’s not exactly tearing up the A.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
I see you saying 92...
But the recent SCS projections have 88 likely making the playoffs in the 8th spot. 92 would probably net us 7th, with 6th taking 95. I’d say, then, that I think 7th is easily possible, if not necessarily likely. Also, you noted the idea of a fringe team selling off pieces, but what of White and Samsonov? They brought back assets that will be around longer than they were trying to be.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
anybody else have tradecenter on yesterday in the background?
was painful watching aaron ward stammer through his panel conversation. michael peca sounded very professional and knowledgeable, i think he’s a natural on set.
as for edmonton, of course everyone had to speak glowingly about their situation — everyone who is canadian, that is. they are trying to protect the canadian entitites at all costs
"I’m tired of being a fringe team and needing a lot of things to go right to make the playoffs." - C-Leaguer
as for edmonton, of course everyone had to speak glowingly about their situation — everyone who is canadian, that is. they are trying to protect the canadian entitites at all costs
I have some aluminum foil around my sandwich. When I am done with it, you can have it. I bet it would make a hell of a hat…….
All i do know is...
what is done…is done…now lets see if these changes will help the canes move up a place or 2 or if they will play whose the healthy scratch tonight game…seeing it is Joslin’s turn tonight…which i think sucks…but i’m just a fan…what do i know ??
as fans,are we expecting too much ??
Consider This
Next year we have $29,862,500 in cap space with 11 players to sign from our current roster of active Canes.
1. Stillman, Larose, Dwyer I think our gone. Replaced by Boychuk, Dalpe, and or another Checker (Nash, Bowman).
2. Cole is signed back around the same amount $2.9.
3. Jokinen gets a $1 mil raise to around $2.7
4. Sutter (RFA) signs for around $2.75 – $3.00
5. Pits is resigned for around $4.5 per year
6. Harrison is resigned for around $1.0 per year
7. Tlusty & Bodie take minimal salaries $650 per year.
8. Joslin = $750,000 per year.
Now that puts us at $48.5 which is $10.9 under the cap…….Maybe our budget goes up and we can sign either a star defensemen or winger with Staal and become even more competitive and still have $5.0 million in Cap Space.
I like what we have done and where we are headed, IF we can sign a couple of selective UFA’s to supplement the youth movement.
Shoot the puck!!!!!!
I would be surprised if Sutter makes that much.
+/- is nice, but it doesn’t bring the big bucks in free agency. A 30-point year (he’s on pace for 29) is really going to depress his market value.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
If you pay Jay Harrison a million dollars Jewel, I am going to shoot him out of principle…..
it always burns within
the downward spiral never ends
when driven into sin
your salvation's found in a sinner's deed
by Douchebag St John on Mar 1, 2011 12:51 PM EST reply actions
Hooray for autocorrect!
" Jules " not " Jewel ". Still you should get the reference.
it always burns within
the downward spiral never ends
when driven into sin
your salvation's found in a sinner's deed
by Douchebag St John on Mar 1, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Somebody disagreed, but here's another person on my side regarding our schedule:
@CrashtheCrease: Of all teams fighting for playoffs and playoff spot in the East CAR has easiest schedule. Huge posts coming with scheds of all teams
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.
The Canes have a ton of home games and a lot of games against divisional opponents that they’ve matched up well against all year. The Buffalo games and the Caps games (just due to the sheer number) are probably the biggest hurdles the remainder of the year.
Don't trust me. I have psychological issues.
Yeah. Based on the remaining schedule, I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t make the playoffs or even move up a spot or two. 12 of our remaining 19 games are at home. 4 of our remaining games are against division leaders but 3 of those against the Lightning who we have played well against in the past (the other against the Red Wings) and 3 of those 4 are played at home.
We do have three game left against Buffalo and those are going to obviously be crucial. I can’t wait for Thursday night:-)
And that's another Hurricane's goal! WOOOOOOOO!
Controversy?
I am kind of surprised at the quipping and second-guessing. JR’s moves were all pretty good. We got stronger now without sacrificing anything important going forward.
If we miss the playoffs, it is not like the loss of Carter or Carson is really going to make a difference in the long term. Both are depth players, and neither was slotted to play a big role on the Canes now or in the future.
The only thing which will be regrettable, should we miss the playoffs, will be not trading Pitkanen, who I do expect to walk this summer.
colour me optimistic
I have to say I’m pretty happy with what went down by the end of the trade deadline. I can’t say I was expecting some HUGE deal to go down – I wasn’t expecting Brad Richards or any of that. I was sorta expecting Chad LaRose to get moved though… PitKANen, the closer it got to the deadline the more it looked like he was going to hang around. All in all I was pretty pleased with the deals.
Stillman.. although people point out he old and slow – I think he’ll add something to the team. As it points out in this post; I think he WILL be that guy who’ll swarm the front of the goal and work for some of those “dirty” goals that alot of guys on this team seem unwilling to do. I think he’ll be a big help on the power play – which is something that needs to be addressed and brought up to speed if anything is going to happen for this team to make it into the post season.
Joslin.. I’ve liked what I’ve seen so far. I’ve liked even more what I’ve heard about this kid. Given time I think he’ll grow into what ever roll they want to use him in. Hoping he’ll develop a good chemistry with whoever he’s paired with out there.
Joslin.. I’ve liked what I’ve seen so far. I’ve liked even more what I’ve heard about this kid. Given time I think he’ll grow into what ever roll they want to use him in. Hoping he’ll develop a good chemistry with whoever he’s paired with out there.Bryan Allen.. well, I just hope he stays healthy.
Joslin.. I’ve liked what I’ve seen so far. I’ve liked even more what I’ve heard about this kid. Given time I think he’ll grow into what ever roll they want to use him in. Hoping he’ll develop a good chemistry with whoever he’s paired with out there.Bryan Allen.. well, I just hope he stays healthy.
"It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times..."
by Gramm Matthew Esq. on Mar 1, 2011 1:54 PM EST reply actions
Don’t know why it does that.. is annoying. I’ll blame it on Chad LaRose.
"It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times..."
by Gramm Matthew Esq. on Mar 1, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
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