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How much bigger will the Canes be in 2011-2012?


We all know the Canes are going to be bigger going into 2011-2012 than they were early in 2010-2011, but by how much? There are several ways to answer this question, including: by average weight, by a count of players greater than stated weights, by looking at how many players are well above average size, and by imagining new line combinations and defensive pairings. I'm not commenting on lines and pairings but do try to answer the question in the other ways.

Admittedly, bigger players don't necessarily play a more physical style, but the laws of physics still apply. If Tomas Kaberle at 214 is no more physical than Joe Corvo at 204 or even if Kaberle plays a less physical style, there will probably be times when greater mass allows Kaberle to hold his position better.

There is no great insight in this post. I'm just sharing some numbers I compiled to satisfy my own curiosity on the chance that others may be interested in this particular way of comparing rosters while we're waiting for the 2011-2012 season. The truth is, I don't know how this will all work out on the ice and want the season to start today. I hoped this simple-minded exercise would give me a better feel for the coming season.

A few notes on the players used in the comparisons: I couldn't think of an ideal way to identify the early roster for last season. O'Sullivan was on the opening day roster but played so little that I plugged in Samsonov. Samsonov's official weight was 188 to O'Sullivan's 190 so this substitution hardly made a difference. The forwards I used to figure the 2010-2011 numbers were, starting with former Canes: Cole, Kostopoulos, Samsonov, Jokinen, Staal, Ruutu, Skinner, Sutter, LaRose, Dwyer, Bowman, Dalpe. (Both Bowman and Dalpe were on the opening day roster.) The list for this season scratches Cole, Kostopoulos, Samsonov and Bowman and adds Stewart, Brent, Ponikarovsky and Tlusty, who was injured early last year.

On defense, the Canes started last season with Corvo, Babchuk, Gleason, Pitkanen, McBain and Harrison and I averaged their weights for this comparison. I ignored 200-lb Ian's White's time in Carolina. Besides replacing two defensemen, the Canes are carrying 7 defensemen this season instead of 6. Since both Harrison and Joslin seem likely to play, I averaged the weights of all seven. There are four holdovers and three new guys: Allen, Joslin and Kaberle, close to a 50% makeover.

After the jump, the numbers and a couple of comments.

Star-divide

The tables pasted below compare average weights season to season by position and then provide counts of the number of Canes' players who weigh more than the weights shown. Next, the averages:

Canes' Weight 2010-2011 vs 2011-2012: Average and Distribution
Average Weights
Forwards Defensemen All Skaters
2010-2011 193.2 209.0 198.4
2011-2012 199.0 214.5 204.2
Increase 5.8 5.5 5.8

 

Note: Average weight of forwards in 2010-2011 with Carter and Bodie instead of Samsonov and Dalpe = 195.5

On the player counts above a certain weight, I was interested in the total count rather than the number of unique players who fall into each weight class. The number in each class is easy to infer as the counts diminish with greater weights. The downside of this approach is that a player who weighs more than 225 pounds shows up in all the weight ranges below that. That is why the player counts in the rows of those tables add up to more than the number of players on the roster.

Number of Forwards  >
200 205 210 215 220 225
2010-2011 3 0 0 0 0 0
2011-2012 5 3 2 2 2 1

 

 

Number of Defensemen  >
200 205 210 215 220
2010-2011 5 4 3 1 0
2011-2012 6
6 4 2 1

 

Number of Skaters  >
200 205 210 215 220
2010-2011 8 4 3 1 0
2011-2012 12 9 6 4 3

 

Really Big Players

How many Canes are well above average size for NHL players? I would arbitrarily draw the line at 215 pounds. Gleason was the only Canes' player for most of last season who qualified. This year Gleason is joined by Allen, Ponikarovsky and Stewart. The Canes have four players who are big by any standard and three of them play a very physical game. Ponikarovsky looks pretty physical in some of his highlights too.

How much of a difference will the added size make in the Canes' play? Will added size on defense make life easier for Cam Ward? Will a couple of truly big forwards create space for Staal, Skinner and Jokinen and boost their scoring? At this point we can only hope. The change from last season is that the problems of an undersized team seemed obvious and for months there was little reason to expect a change. Now what should be a fix is already in place.

There may be times this year when McBain has a day off (as he did late last year when injured) and both Joslin and Harrison play. That will be interesting because it will mean every Canes' defenseman on the ice weighs at least 210 pounds.Where last season the Canes sometimes used a line of Samsonov, LaRose and Dwyer, this year it's possible to send out Ponikarovsky, Staal and Stewart. The possibilities have changed a lot. We'll see the results in October.

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Really interesting to look at this – Canes were shortest and lightest at start of season last year (With Detroit and Penguins very close). Appreciate this post and the way you explained it. Thanks.

Twitter @HMof2

by Carolyn Christians on Jul 21, 2011 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Here was the post I was remembering from last October. From Hockey Broad

In Oct 2010, League Average was 204 lbs. Atlanta was heaviest at 212.5 lbs. (Byfuglien at 265 really skews that I’d think). Canes were lightest at 198.6 lbs.

Twitter @HMof2

by Carolyn Christians on Jul 21, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for tracking down the Hockey Broad article. It’s good that the average weight I got for last year’s Canes is almost exactly what they did – the Samsonov substitution for O’Sullivan probably accounts for the slight difference.

You added key pieces of information: league average weight of 204 lbs and the reminder that Atlanta was biggest. The Canes seem much bigger than last year and by my calculations they’ve only made it up to average size! As for Atlanta, being biggest wasn’t enough to make them a winner.

by curiouscanesfan on Jul 21, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very interesting post. Thanks for all the work putting this analysis together. I found the detail very informative. I hope the added size does not cut down on our speed to any significant degree. I’m as interested as you to see if the added size helps. I think it will. Thanks again.

by FoxtrotSierra on Jul 21, 2011 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I have the same concern about possibly losing speed, but Samsonov wasn’t a speed demon last year, my memory tells me that Stewart moves very well for a big man, and the Canes have said Ponikarovsky has good speed when healthy. I would guess that Brent’s speed is not a downgrade from Ryan Carter’s or Tom Kostopoulos’ speed. I also remember Tlusty as showing speed before his knee injury; he may be coming in this season with healthy legs and if so shouldn’t be slower than Kostopoulos or Carter.

Erik Cole represents a loss of speed in a key position. No matter who starts at right wing on the first line, I don’t think they’ll move like Cole.

Joslin seemed to move better than Harrison late last year. Allen didn’t look fast but I don’t know if Babchuk would run off and leave him. My impression, based on practically no observation of Kaberle, is that Corvo is faster.

If these weak observations are accurate, one forward and one defenseman will be slower than last season. Even so, the team desperately needed to get bigger and JR has pulled it off without sacrificing much team speed.

It would be a bonus if in training camp Dalpe and Boychuk arrive in great shape and can fly. Skinner said he wants to come in stronger and faster this season. With luck, McBain will have improved his strength and skating. So there’s hope of compensating for the speed lost with Cole (certain) and Corvo (I think).

by curiouscanesfan on Jul 21, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Size and Speed

The forwards the Canes added, Stewart, Ponikarovsky, and Brent, have excellent speed. Dalpe, who clearly is favored to make the team, also has excellent speed; and at 6’1" 195 lbs has good size. At this point, LaRose, Dwyer, and Boychuk are under-sized, both in terms of their listed size and in terms of their measured size. Skinner and Jokinen, 5’11" and 195 lbs are almost exactly the same height and weight as Crosby. Their size is more than ample.

by abramsdoug on Jul 21, 2011 6:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Another take: think of ALL the roster moves as happening in a single trade

Revisiting the lists of players on the two rosters, I saw this whole thing a different way. Size can contribute to a players value and quality, but let’s forget size for a minute and think about the player exchange that’s taken place year to year. Not that it was all by design or under their control or happened directly, but the Canes’ rosters last year and this show that they traded:

Erik Cole, Sergei Samsonov, Tom Kostopoulos, Joe Corvo and Anton Babchuk

for

Alexei Panikarovsky, Anthony Stewart, Tim Brent, Tomas Kaberle, Bryan Allen and Derek Joslin

The Canes won’t miss Samsonov or Babchuk. Brent is a fair exchange for Kostopoulos. Kaberle is an upgrade on Corvo and Allen is an upgrade on Babchuk, with Joslin as a bonus.

The big issue in evaluating this “trade” is whether Ponikarovsky and Stewart between them make up for the loss of Cole. Significantly, neither one of the new guys has to replace Cole 1 for 1 for this “deal” to give the Canes an equivalent group of experienced forwards.

My take is that after all the changes, the Canes will be better but to be a lot better, they probably need to see spectacular growth in one forward from their system or substantial growth in two. Here’s hoping Dalpe and Boychuk or Bowman make a leap.

 

by curiouscanesfan on Jul 21, 2011 6:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Brian Boucher might be worth a mention as well.

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by Jamie Kellner on Jul 21, 2011 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Definitely. Nice catch. Boucher wasn’t on my list of players because I didn’t compare the weight of the goalies year to year and I didn’t go back to the roster on the Canes’ site.

Boucher might be worth two or three victories (although I personally think Peters would himself perform better if given enough playing time). Boucher does tip the balance farther in favor of the new roster.

by curiouscanesfan on Jul 21, 2011 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

But if Boucher inspires enough confidence to get more starts...

that’s a problem solved right there.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 22, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think Boucher

is a huge upgrade. Has far more experience and good regular season stats. I think he takes a good amount of weight off of Cam Ward’s shoulders. Now, getting Mo’ to play him is another story. He may not have performed that well in the playoffs, but if the ‘Canes make the playoffs…I can’t imagine Mo’ would pull Ward.

Advocating the correct nickname for Tyrus Thomas be: Tyrusauras.
Blindly Optimistic follower of The Iowa Hawkeyes, San Francisco 49ers, Carolina Hurricanes, Charlotte Checkers, and the Charlotte Bobcats.
Zack Fitzgerald has a posse.

by HAWKEYESBABY on Jul 23, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Related topic...

While we have discussed the most likely team roster/ players what about the other possibles…ie Samson, Brett Sutter, Nash, Stillman, Boychuk, Bowman, Bodie, Faulk, Sanguinetti, Murphy…
Have we any brave souls who think they know, or can guess of their chances of making the team at training camp?
…and of course if there are some surprises who actually make it… then who won’t?
-my pick is Samson on the 3rd or 4th line… Tlusty – bye, bye

by randycane on Jul 23, 2011 12:55 PM EDT reply actions  

In case some aren’t clear on this, Bodie has not been re-signed so he’s not in the mix. Same for Stillman.

Boychuk and Bowman are first in line. Nash still needs work – unless he’s really added bulk and confidence over the summer. He’s not a 4th line type at the moment, unlike Brett Sutter who is likely never to be top-6.

I think Samson ran out of steam as his longer stint in Raleigh went on, and his contributions were not what they were when he first came up. His strength/tenacity along the boards seemed to diminish and he never found the net, though he was a leading scorer in the AHL. Dalpe was able to produce when he was on the 4th line.

Tlusty is more skilled but struggled with significant injuries all season. I think because of those mitigating factors, Tlusty will be given every opportunity to show he doesn’t merit more time. He also has a one-way contract, unlike Samson, so when you say bye-bye, I’m thinking you mean Tlusty will be traded, that is if there’s a market…?

With 7 NHL Dmen signed, and only McBain on a 2-way, those 3 defense prospects you named are going to have to surpass some established NHL regulars who are similarly puck-movers. Pitkanen, Kaberle, McBain would be their benchmark to surpass. Very high expectations especially for Faulk and Murphy with little or no pro hockey yet on their resumes. Sanguinetti is pretty interesting and I’d like to see him get some time this season to evaluate what his NHL potential is.

Twitter @HMof2

by Carolyn Christians on Jul 23, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

With Murphy, Faulk, and Dumoulin, things are going to be very interesting in a year or two with regard to the defense. Pitkanen and Kaberle are on three year contracts, so I believe the Hurricanes organization intends to keep them for the long haul. I, too, would like to see what Sanguinetti can do with some time with the Canes. Training camp will seem like the Stanley Cup finals with so many positions up for grabs.

by abramsdoug on Jul 23, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Camp...

I understand your position on Samson, Carolyn, and don’t completely disagree, but let’s remember someone thought ..(JR).. that Samson had earned a chance…so is it over? ..or does he get to show his stuff at camp?? my guess is we will see a healthy competition for more than one position, and probably several contenders for a couple slots…
any other interesting competitions?

by randycane on Jul 23, 2011 11:58 PM EDT reply actions  

One might argue that 4 points in 30 games over the last two years is a chance earned and not taken advantage of.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

Panthers '010: Save the Richardson family coffers! We'll take the winning if we stumble into it.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Valid point..

..but out of those games he’s only played 4th line/ low minutes- sooo you really have to evaluate his effort/ quality of play with other metrics… i’m not in love with his play, but i do think he has still got some upside!!
it will be interesting to see the various prospects in camp…me thinks

by randycane on Jul 25, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

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