Potential Tim Gleason-For-Jakub Voracek Trade Has History On Its Side

I like this trade. Its much better than getting a 2nd or 3rd round like the Canes usually get. This actually fills a spot on our top 2 lines.

Nice points and similarities between now and 2004.

Honestly I could be happy with any one of the Sean Couturier (19), Brayden Schenn (20), James Van Riemdyk (22), Wayne Simmonds (23) or Jakub Voracek (22).

We need to increase our talent level in the top 6.

JVR would be great too. The concussion is a worry, but if healthy JVR is a gamer and a proven clutch scorer.

Cory, would this have been a JVR article if he was healthy??

Gleason is an impending UFA. Markov was on the first year of a three-year contract when he was traded to Philadelphia.

This is just horrible value for The Flyers. What makes you think this is possible? A bad trade from 10 years ago that was made by a different GM? Holmgren should be fired if he even thinks about this.

This won’t happen. It has generated some fun conversation, and that is it.

Aw come on yose guys !!!!

Lot of rumors about Drew Stafford being shopped. Big scoring right winger, 31 goals last year, signed long-term at $4 per year. Struggling this year but so is Buffalo.

Not THE solution… But add Stafford, Yakupov/Grigorenko/Forsberg, and a guy like Voracek and we have a much better offense next year. Add a solid shutdown D or 2 and we have a contender.

I would like to see this happen, but I can’t see it. If Flyers are going for the cup it would be foolish to trade player from the roster especially with JVR down. I expect that they are only willing to give up picks or prospects – and perhaps JVR because of his injury.

It is true that they will not be able to resign all of their players – but that does not mean they have to trade them, they can use them for the Cup run and then let them walk.

Hi everyone. I’m a die-hard Flyers fan who comes onto Canes Country sporadically because the Canes, by default, are my 2nd favorite team (due to a close friend of mine being a lifelong Cane). I will give you my take on this speculative trade (for what it’s worth)… I don’t get to watch a TON of Canes games, unfortunately, being that i live in NJ and don’t have satellite tv/NHL Center Ice… It’s true, the Flyers are clearly in search of a trade partner for a top-tier D-man.. i ALSO think it’s true that there is a non-trivial chance that Gleason is the eventual player the Flyers will land. Holmgren has been trying VERY hard to work a deal for one of Nashville’s top pairing defensemen, more likely Suter even if Weber is at the top of their wish list, simply because of what it will take to land a Top 5 D-man (not to mention, franchise player AND captain..) in Shea Weber… it is my understanding that those talks have yielded very little progress. Not to sound like a know-it-all, but i do have a very credible source in a solid beat-writer for Philly’s main sports news outlet. He has been AMAZINGLY accurate in the past with his “rumors” coming to fruition, especially in the past year (with the exact pieces of the Richards + Carter trade). According to him, just earlier in the day today, Holmgren is not optimistic at all of getting a deal done w Nashville. Their asking price, even for Suter, is wayyyyy above what he was willing to go.. basically, they are asking for a Shea Weber-type return for Ryan Suter, and apparently want the whole Flyers roster for Shea Weber.. lol. This brings us to Gleason… who, along with Luke Schenn of Toronto, is the next stop down Homer’s D-man wish list. I can only tell you this: I haven’t seen a HUGE amount of Tim Gleason, and everyone seems to agree that he’s a very solid “defense first” defenseman… that being said, I HIGHLY doubt Jake Voracek straight up is the return the Canes would receive. One of the posters above in this thread mentioned the primary reason: Lavs AND Homer are both VERRRRRRRY high on Jake. I don’t miss a second of any flyers game and i can tell u also from a personal perspective, I would not be happy at ALL if the flyers moved Voracek unless he was part of the package going back to Nashville for Shea Weber. This guy is a beast (or, i should say, is GOING TO BE a beast… he’s quickly shaping up to be one of my fav flyers this season). His ice time, especially on the PP, has only increased from year’s start. I’m aware his stats alone look rather pedestrian for a “beast”, but believe me, this kid (and he is still a kid…. a big kid, but still very young) looks like he can do it all. Lavs has been encouraging him to shoot more, as he always seems to look pass first…. but he really can skate, he’s obviously quite powerful and majority of the time plays VERY stong on the puck, and he can pass AND shot a little too. He also seems to be one of the harder working players out there each game (which i think Lavs has CLEARLY noticed and is a big reason for all of his ice time on a team that quite honestly, has as much depth at forward as ANY team in the NHL right now… NINE scorers with 10+ goals.. most teams have 3-4… i think two teams have 6… flyers roll out 4 lines that ALL can score and it seems on most nights, 11 out of their 12 forwards have a SIGNIFICANT offensive upside (u have your Jody Shelley’s and Zac Rinaldo’s that aren’t gonna score, but other than that, this team can score). The issue, besides Bryz getting his head on straight, has been the defensemen turning the puck over, especially starting the rush/coming out of their own zone… guys like Coburn, Carle, Mez… they ALL can shoot the puck… but aside from Timonen this year, they aren’t getting solid DEFENSIVE defensemen play. The degree to which Holmgren “MUST” go out and get a top tier defenseman varies based on who you ask… I think Holmgren WILL end up overpaying slightly for whoever they get (and they WILL get someone…), I just don’t see him parting with Voracek unless it’s to Nashville. If Voracek DOES go to you guys for Gleason, i would think something else is coming back besides just Gleason (not to trivialize Gleason by saying “just Gleason”, just saying I would consider Gleason for Voracek straight up as a steal for Carolina. After the Richards and Carter trades were first completed, I thought I’d like Simmonds the most, as far as the NHL-ready/immediate return players… Don’t get me wrong, i love the way Simmonds plays, but I like Voracek more. I’d trade Simmonds before i’d trade Voracek. Hell, i’d trade JVR before i trade Voracek.. I do think they may have shelled out too much $$$, too early for JVR, but i still see him becoming a pretty special player.. All I can say in closing is this: if you land Voracek, you will be VERY happy you got him.

Holmgren (and apparently Lavy too) are EXTREMELY high on these three forwards: Voracek, Couturier, and Read. While Homer quite obviously has a high opinion of JVR (tempered, recently, for good reason), I hear that Lavy is not pleased with either the results or the listening to direction of JVR, and this is pretty much for the span of the entire season… even though he did go through a stretch where he resembled the JVR of the ‘11 playoff season.. My thinking is this: JVR is apparently close to returning and because of the sensitivity of the concussion issue surrounding the NHL (especially this season), I think the JVR injury concern isn’t as big of a deal as some have made it. I think JVR still has tremendous upside, but may have been redone contract-wise a bit too early.. I think with some injury free action the next couple of weeks, he will be right in the mix for a possible trade for a top tier defenseman. If not JVR, I honestly would even see the Flyers moving Simmonds before they move Voracek, Read, or Couturier. I cannot stand when people use the term “untouchable”, because it’s overused/used incorrectly the vast majority of the time. Sure, Claude Giroux is untouchable. That’s where it ends for the Flyers. That being said, the ONLY way you’ll see Read or Couturier moved (and I think Voracek is pretty much on that list as well) is in a trade with Nashville, or more specifically, with Weber (not happening). Hellfish pointed out Harry Z as well. Great speed guy. Not so much the same skill level as Read or Courts tho.. Also, the Flyers brass has been pretty transparent (especially the past 2-3 seasons) with regards to leaked rumors and most of the rumored players ACTUALLY being the ones shopped by Homer to other GM’s… so I really do believe that Read, Couturier, and Voracek are staying. JVR will be out there, possibly Simmonds too.. I’m sure a guy like Harry Z as well as whatever other prospects we have in the system.. (cupboard is getting a little bit bare tho w the Phantoms…)

Ok, even with many scouting outlets calling Brayden Schenn the #1 NHL prospect not currently in the NHL (before this season started), and even though Vegas has him slightly favored over RNH for the Calder odds on favorite, I do NOT think he will be off the table. I truly believe they would move HIM as well for a top Dman… I honestly believe he goes before Voracek, Courts, or Matt Read…

OK, after reading this article and all of the comments, I decided to leave one myself…this is super long but I wanted to address all of the comments basically, so I’m just gonna go on a killer rant…It’ll probably be repetitive, but I’m just going with it…I apologize in advance for the length

I don’t really understand how this whole Voracek for Gleason discussion came about, all because the Flyers made a trade with Carolina like 8 years ago, with a different GM and in a different era…it’s true that back then one year we traded a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and our top prospect G Maxime Ouellet who never panned out for an Adam Oates rental because our top two centers got hurt in a 3 day span. It was a trade out of desperation, and the type you are trying to reference in the article, and back then it was normal for the Flyers to make those types of trades – but as a big market team it was also possible for us to go out and sign whoever we wanted in free agency with no cap or to acquire big contracts from smaller market teams that couldn’t afford them to build our team, young players weren’t as necessary for our success…it wasn’t as important for us to develop our own players, but today the circumstances are different with a salary cap (the flyers have learned this lesson during the new cap era), and we need to keep and develop our young players to be a competitive team…only players such as Kovalchuk/Forsberg are worth the risk to net decent returns in rental deals (Oduya, Bergfors, Cormier)/(Parent, Upshall, 1st) – still not the best deals – or possibly Parise/Suter this year…Gleason is a helluva player but he’s not on that level, even though he brings alot to the table he’s not an NHL all-star…

Also, when you’re the “buyer” you typically don’t give up the best player in the deal (which would be the case if we gave up Voracek or JVR) or even give up someone equal (you could say Simmonds is equal, I think he’s worth a tiny bit more, bc he’s a power forward and only 22 which inflates his value a bit and he contributes in more ways than his stats say), and even if you say they’re equal Gleason loses value bc of his impending UFA status…so if you guys think you have the chance to acquire any of those pieces for a rental, you’re way off…..SORRY…..and there’s no way Couturier ( who fell from being ranked 1st most of last year to a steal at 8th overall) or Schenn (the top prospect ranked by hf last year) would be involved in a deal for Gleason so stop throwing their names a possibilities – I think only one or two guys kept throwing their names out there but that was ridiculous…it’s just an unrealistic dream, similar to if I seriously offered you an impending UFA Carle for prospects R. Murphy or Faulk….Looking at past deadlines for rental players – BOS acquired an impending ufa Seidenberg with a decent prospect Bartkowski for a 2nd and Bitz, Leopold went for a 2nd, Grebeshkov for a 2nd, and the yr before for MAB and 3rd, Sutton for a 2nd, Jurcina for a 6th, Corvo for a 2nd and Osala, Schneider for shitty picks like 3 times, Foote went for a conditional 1st, Gill for a 2nd, Modry for a 3rd, B. Campbell who’s an all-star and better than TG got a 1st and disappointing prospect in Bernier, Brad Stuart for a 2nd and 4th…Gleason IMO is about on the same level as a Brad Stuart, Leopold or Seidenberg (who I think is vastly underrated, he’s a beast)…so rental d-men avg about a 2nd rounder, so bc TG is in the upper tier of these rentals, I value him at late 1st in a deep draft or 2nd plus a decent prospect

I absolutely love Tim Gleason and he’s a great fit for what the Flyers need. Love his game in general and his play in the Olympics. First available d-man that came to my mind after Pronger went down. I’ve heard that he’s having an off year, and if I can remember correctly it was Pierre LeBrun who wrote his espn blog a month and a half ago something along the lines of look for the flyers to target gleason or bryan allen, and that gleason was playing so bad that he’d be lucky to get a 4th/5th round pick (I don’t agree with him at all on that one, even if he was playing poorly)…Replacing Pronger is pretty much impossible unless we gut the team for Weber, but what we can do is add a solid defenseman that can compensate for the nastiness and toughness we lost and are now lacking…Gleason is a good fit, and he’s a top 4 d-man but not really a top pairing guy, and in the Flyer’s system he’ll need to be paired with someone who’s mobile…so if Gleason’s price was as high as Voracek (the Flyers are getting raped for a rental in that deal), I would think the Flyers would just look for a cheaper alternative instead, to bring the toughness on the back end, and I’m sure there will be a few available ( i’ll get to that later on)…You guys keep saying all this stuff about leverage, but you guys think that you have more leverage than you actually have because you risk losing him for nothing if you don’t deal him (it’s not like he is under contract like Beauchemin was last year or DMarkov in 2004, so those good returns are not comparable…if Gleason was under contract then it would be completely different and maybe Voracek would be acceptable in exchange for Gleason and maybe another valuable asset) – I doubt another team would offer more that a late 1st for Gleason, so I would just wait it out until closer to the deadline for the price to drop or look elsewhere than do something stupid …we just traded away our top 2 forwards this summer for younger players and prospects, so trading away a key piece of our “re-tool” in a 22 year old Jakub Voracek for a rental is beyond stupid…we seriously just traded away a 30/40 goal scorer in Carter for Voracek… it would make zero sense to trade him for a rental, he’s a part of our future – if we have cap problems we’ll deal with it in the off-season like we always do not during the year, Homer always makes it work…

this is not really similar to the Justin Williams trade at all because that team was built to win that year with vets like Amonte, Roenick, Zhamnov, Primeau, Kapanen, Recchi, Malakhov, Desjardins, Ragnarsson, C. Lapointe, Burke…the Flyer’s this year are a contending team, but we’re also a young team that has dressed 10 rookies(6/7 regulars) along with 7 others under the age of 30, we’re not a team on the decline as someone said…

The difference is that when the Flyers made that trade in 2004 they were bona-fide contenders and one of the cup favorites…and if not for injuries that decimated our D in that playoffs that forced us to use Sami Kapanen on the back end, I truly feel that we would have won the cup that year…our team was stacked…Someone mentioned in earlier comments that the Flyers window for a cup is closing, and that is far from the truth – our core consists of young players who will only continue to improve in Giroux (arguably a top 5 player in the NHL this year), Couturier (already our best defensive forward, looks a lot like Jordan Staal to me – love the kid), Brayden Schenn (ranked by many as the #1 prospect prior to this season, projects to be a Mike Richards-type player), Voracek, Matt Read, Wayne Simmonds, and JVR (who has underperformed this year due to injuries but showed in the playoffs last year his potential…this is only his third year and power forwards typically take a few years more to develop)…all of them are under 25 years of age, with the oldest being Read…that’s a pretty nice core…we do have older players such as Timonen, Briere, Hartnell, Talbot, Jagr but as they fade their production will be replaced as Couts, Schenn, and the young guys improve and develop during that time, and our roster will most likely be supplemented through free agency and other moves…one of the positives of Jagr being here is that he is a mentor to fellow czech Voracek, and Voracek is pretty much in place to fill Jagr’s shoes once he leaves/retires…Philly never has problems attracting free agents and Homer has the green light to spend and structure long deals with low cap hits, so when Timonen retires we’ll probably just sign a new d-man with the freed up cap space..and it actually looks like there will be an amnesty provision in the next CBA so we’ll probably use it on Pronger (who’s career I believe is over bc of concussion), and even if there isn’t we can just LTIR Pronger every year for space…that’s off topic tho sorry ugh…

You would never get offered JVR for Gleason even if he was under contract, let alone as a rental! If you heard that somewhere, someone made that up or information got skewed, that’s worst than the Voracek rumor, and I’m tired of hearing you guys say JVR has no value bc he’s hurt – that’s not true- he’s freaking 22 years old! the canes are looking to the future not now so what matters if he’s hurt now?…Power forwards with his speed and 101.5mph slap shot (from the Flyers team skills comp last year) don’t come around too often…he could end up not developing anymore which would be ok bc he’d still be a 25g scorer, or if he fulfills his potential he can be a 40 goal guy who dominates games like he did in the playoffs last year…JVR was the 2nd pick, and a 25g scorer in his second season.
It’s true that there were JVR for Luke Schenn rumors, but L.Schenn was also the 5th pick in his draft and still has potential to develop into a top 2 Adam Foote-type d-man, he’s too young to be a ufa in the near future, so his value is high (it would also be nice to unite the brothers)…from what I read, Dreger and others also said that TOR most likely would have needed to add to that swap to acquire JVR…so it’s a swap of two good players who have potential to be great…We already know what Gleason is – a top 4 guy, great 2nd pairing guy on a good team. He doesn’t have potential to improve really, so a trade for JVR makes no sense for the Flyers. If JVR gets traded, it’s in a package for a number one defenseman (maybe JVR, Schenn and Coburn, picks for Shea Weber? haha, I can dream), or a future top pairing guy, not just a top-4 guy like Gleason (a JVR trade would be along the lines of the Erik Johnson for Chris Stewart swap – it was two players with potential to get better…JVR may be worth less than Stewart, but I’m just saying it would be along the lines of a trade that involved a good young player with upside, for another good young player with upside)

If Holmgren really felt it was that necessary to add a player like Gleason, I seriously doubt he would trade a key contributor from our roster…if you look at the recent over payments like the Kaberle trade, or the Coburn for Zhitnik swap (Coburn was not an NHL regular at the time, and Zhitnik was under contract for another yr) that was mentioned, the over payments were prospects (like Colborne) not roster players…If you want to add a “final piece” to your roster to make a run, you don’t remove another key piece – that’s counter productive…The Flyers are a young team and aren’t going to trade any of our young assets unless a defenseman the caliber of Weber, Suter, or a young d-man with potential like L. Schenn, Bogosian, or Subban is available – def not a rental

You also have to take into account that JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, Read will all be over valued by the Flyers front office because young players with potential are always over valued by their teams …so unless it’s someone with the same potential coming back it’s not happening…Gleason’s price will be driven up by demand, but in the end the Flyers might not be able to re-sign him and probably won’t, and I don’t see other teams offering more than a late 1st in a deep draft…I’ll take a cheaper rental and try to acquire/sign someone in the offseason to make up for Pronger if he really is done

I find it absolutely ridiculous that people are thinking that you would refuse JVR (yea he’s hurt but it’s not like you need him for this year) for Gleason, or even Simmonds for Gleason…both those deals are highway robbery for someone you probably won’t even sign…I might give you Matt Read, and only if I was EXTREMELY desperate( he’s already 25 so he’s 2/3 years older than the others, his production at his low cap hit would be hard to replace tho…I love Read and really wouldn’t want to lose him)

We don’t need a top 4 guy as much as we need just a physical defensive d-man in general, we have 4 pretty good d-men already plus two solid rookies on d in Bourdon and Gustafsson…We don’t need to replace Pronger, truly replacing a stud like him is impossible unless we gut the team for Weber, we just need to replace his toughness and mean streak…I’ll take one of, or maybe even a combination (if we could afford it with Pronger’s LTIR money which is 4.9 i think, but doubt it) of Bryan Allen, Lydman, Robidas, Spacek, Hal Gill, Weaver, Sutton, M. Greene, Hannan, Sarich, Franson, Jurcina, Kuba, Kubina, whoever to keep our team intact…there’s better options that make our team better…maybe I would give up a little more for someone like Grossman (maybe Read or Harry Z plus Bourdon)

The chances of an over payment like this is extremely unlikely…it’s true that every year there are some overpayments at the deadline, but for every overpayment there are like ten pretty…bottom line Gleason is a RENTAL, and he’s not Kovalchuk, Forsberg or Suter (or even Kaberle – Burke waited for over a year til he got a deal that good), and most rentals come at a fairly good price…I think if the Flyers get Gleason it will be similar to the Versteeg deal from last year, who was actually under contract btw…so a 1st if you’re lucky (in a deep draft with a lot of quality D prospects) only bc the price is driven up due to interest from other teams, or maybe a 2nd plus Bourdon/Marshall/Lauridsen…

But that’s it, and how I feel about this whole forum…sorry to crush your dreams/confuse you by not making sense, probably the latter…The 2004 trade and the possible trade you offered may seem like they would be similar but in reality it’s even less likely that it would happen today